The Mauricio Pochettino thread

I totally accept there are mitigating circumstances to our form but why is Poch compounding them by playing players that want out or are totally out of form, sticking to the failed diamond formation, showing limited tactical nous during a game, tinkering unnecessarily etc etc. I would show a lot more loyalty and accept a “run” of poor form if none of the above was happening.

M.I.B. said:

I think the game that proved to me he has no plan B was the CL against Juve at Wembley 2 seasons back. We were winning, and comfortable for a long time, then mid second half you could visibly see us tire, and Juve took advantage. Clinically.

But still Poch wouldn't/couldn't see what we could, and still refused to make a change. All around us were yelling for him to make a sub, just to freshen it up, but nothing, until too late.

And this has been the pattern throughout. A reluctance/stubborness to do it HIS way and not admit he was wrong.

Saints fans allegedly said when we got him, "no plan B". And so it proves

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I was at that game, sat way up in the Gods so the team shape was really obvious, and I swear Poch actually had us change formation about 2 minutes before Juve equalised. Rather than consolidating our lead and managing the game he pushed Son up top with Kane into a 4-4-2 aiming to get a third. Lo and behold we conceded 2 quick goals and lost the tie.

I don't think Poch is a terrible tactical manager, but he's very hit and miss. We've had some great victories where Poch's tactics have shone, but I often feel those come more from his excellent man management and motivational skills rather than sheer tactical ingenuity. He's good at the broad stroke stuff, but we've often come unstuck at the final hurdle against the more shrewd tacticians of this world, losing in repeated semi-finals against worse sides due to poor line-ups and substitutions.

Recently I think he's guilty of believing his own hype and ever since the World Cup and the release of his book, he's been experimenting with countless shapes and formations, most of which don't seem to work. Our miraculous run to the CL final, which was borne of pure blood and guts, can't have helped matters and he doesn't look like changing any time soon.

Love the man but I think his best days here are well behind him.

jacko73 said:

But the people arguing that last year counts is to ignore the world cup fatigue and moving home and the general play whilst at Wembley. Do those same people ignore the 4 great years that he has punched above his weight. I maybe wrong on Poch but i would rather go with Poch than Mourinho. you? I think he just has gone too far with this team into his tenure, like Klopp at Dortmund.

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The reason why I wanted Poch in the first place was the high energy football.

He has progressed us, but where has that football gone, it's been missing for nearly a year now.

I just don't get why he's continued to let us start games so passively that sets a slow tempo for the rest of the game.

That has been a massive part of the problem, and has resulted in flat football that has made life much easier for our opponents.

That's the crux of it, not the ten thousand other excuses people are coming out with.

nicdic said:

And yet first half of that 16/17 season we were really poor and played some utterly turgid football. It wasn’t until Swansea at home at the beginning of December that things started to properly click, followed by the switch to a back three. Second half of the season we were brilliant but the first half of the season was not good.

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You have a point, but there were signs (the amazing performance to beat City 2-0 without Kane), and you never saw those group of players on the pitch and thought that they weren't playing for him for one second.

Look at our results at the time. Lots of draws, 2 losses by one goal to Manchester United and Chelsea, but never consistent maulings or completely abject performances in the league anyway. Having watched a couple of the Champions League games live I believe Wembley nerves played a large part and it didn't help us that we were playing quick counter attacking sides like Monaco.

I really don't think this is a case of a poor run of form now. It's being going on for far too long. No team functioning properly gets spanked by Bayern 7-2 only to play worse a few days later and get hammered by Brighton.

ikky said:

I totally accept there are mitigating circumstances to our form but why is Poch compounding them by playing players that want out or are totally out of form, sticking to the failed diamond formation, showing limited tactical nous during a game, tinkering unnecessarily etc etc. I would show a lot more loyalty and accept a “run” of poor form if none of the above was happening.

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Listen I am not aiming this at just you, but this forum has so many negative people on Poch. Lets assume that you are poch, who could he have picked as Lamela was injured pre game i think and Lo Celso is not fit for 90. so who could he play?

I thought he started 433, but we scored so quickly it became 4 5 1 in defense. There was no diamond this week.

Could it be argued if he is tinkering, then he is actually using tactical nous. I guess the 4 years previous was all luck and only now is he getting found out (sarc)

Primativ said:

And yet again another poster comparing winks to Xavi pirlo, modric and carrick. Face palm. The reason those players were world class and correct for that position was because they were world class progressive passers and playmakers. What on earth do people like you see when you watch Winks put on a spurs shirt and run around for 90 minutes? He is so far off those players its unreal so why even mention them? Winks can’t play the DLP role as he can’t pass progressively so what’s the point in telling me he is there to be a DLP and not a DM when he can do neither adequately? The over rating of Winks is phenomenal. Yet people can’t work out why our CM is a shambles. ?

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Thats not a fair reading of his post. He said the ability wasn’t the same.

I agree he shouldn’t be in first XI. Good squad player

Mr Pink said:

The reason why I wanted Poch in the first place was the high energy football.

He has progressed us, but where has that football gone, it's been missing for nearly a year now.

I just don't get why he's continued to let us start games so passively that sets a slow tempo for the rest of the game.

That has been a massive part of the problem, and has resulted in flat football that has made life much easier for our opponents.

That's the crux of it, not the ten thousand other excuses people are coming out with.

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Look how many times we concede the first goal in games and also our disgraceful lack of first half goals for all of last season and this to back up your point Pinky.

Mr Pink said:

The reason why I wanted Poch in the first place was the high energy football.

He has progressed us, but where has that football gone, it's been missing for nearly a year now.

I just don't get why he's continued to let us start games so passively that sets a slow tempo for the rest of the game.

That has been a massive part of the problem, and has resulted in flat football that has made life much easier for our opponents.

That's the crux of it, not the ten thousand other excuses people are coming out with.

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do you think playing at Wembley might have had something to do with this. Now i am trying to argue that they all got old, when we were brilliant they were 23, now our back 5 must be 29 our forward 4 must be 27. and they have played for this guy for 5 years, we all get slower as we get older.

jacko73 said:

do you think playing at Wembley might have had something to do with this. Now i am trying to argue that they all got old, when we were brilliant they were 23, now our back 5 must be 29 our forward 4 must be 27. and they have played for this guy for 5 years, we all get slower as we get older.

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If thats the case then we either have to turnover the squad quicker if our system needs young players in certain positions or we need to adjust our set up to accomodate it. Cant have players who are between 27-31 considered too old for how we want to play either way. We cant justify that as a reason for how poor we have been.

jacko73 said:

Listen I am not aiming this at just you, but this forum has so many negative people on Poch. Lets assume that you are poch, who could he have picked as Lamela was injured pre game i think and Lo Celso is not fit for 90. so who could he play?

I thought he started 433, but we scored so quickly it became 4 5 1 in defense. There was no diamond this week.

Could it be argued if he is tinkering, then he is actually using tactical nous. I guess the 4 years previous was all luck and only now is he getting found out (sarc)

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He could played Moura instead of Eriksen who has shown nothing for ages, Moura at least would’ve offered more in attack also and in past games has had Liverpool defence worried. On the question of Moura why has he been ostracised? At least he has shown commitment by signing a new contract ( even when he was unforgivingly dropped from the CL final when single handedly getting us there ) and Eriksen has not despite playing so poorly for months.
Another option would’ve been to have sissoko there and play our best player ( when he came on ) in Ndombele in the centre and then also not compound it by dismissing his positive contribution in the presser afterwards.
As for tinkering I’m talking about changing a winning team mid week when they had 5 days rest ( compared to Liverpool’s 4 ). Imo a winning team should be given a run unless injuries or form forbid it. Also I could understand his need to rotate our fall backs when we had full backs that bombed up and down the flanks but not now.
And as for Lo Celso, how is he ever going to get match fit when he’s being given very limited playing time? He was given longer against Red star than against Pool and especially when Eriksen was stinking out the place.Was he expecting Lo Celso to have an impact with 3 minuted remaining?

dudu said:

No real in-depth analysis of anything, especially us.

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The message for the board is obvious though. Clear call to action

Well I personally want him to go now and for us to get a fresh new manager on board. I want a serial winner that can change the game tactically and Allegri totally fits that bill. Pochettino has run its course now and it’s time for a change. Even if we beat Everton, I still want him to go. I saw nothing in that Liverpool game to suggest we turned a corner, apart from the fact that Gazzaniga stopped it from being a cricket score. He keeps playing the same old guard, despite us probably producing our best performance in the CL, yet he drops half the team. The guy has lost the plot.

The reporter who covers us for the Athletic has just done a Q & A on us and I’m not sure I believe this but he says the players are tired!

He was asked if players were bored of Poch.

His response “that they’ve heard from good sources that they are yes. Not everyone by any means, but some of them. And not necessarily bored, exhausted in some cases”.

Make of that what you will.

spursfan77 said:

The reporter who covers us for the Athletic has just done a Q & A on us and I’m not sure I believe this but he says the players are tired!

He was asked if players were bored of Poch.

His response “that they’ve heard from good sources that they are yes. Not everyone by any means, but some of them. And not necessarily bored, exhausted in some cases”.

Make of that what you will.

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Wonder exhausted as in physically or mentally or both?

If their running stats showed then in the top 2 or 3 I could accept they may be exhausted, but they're in the bottom 2 or 3 which suggests they aren't fit enough.

wrd said:

If thats the case then we either have to turnover the squad quicker if our system needs young players in certain positions or we need to adjust our set up to accomodate it. Cant have players who are between 27-31 considered too old for how we want to play either way. We cant justify that as a reason for how poor we have been.

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I agree, I think poch agrees with us. remember the season we bought no one and poch came back and said we need to do things differently. maybe that was his argument to Levy, but levy kept offering him carbon copies of N'jie/Nkoudou. I don't know that of course, but i also remember Levy talking whilst we pre seasoned in the US and to the trust last year saying we would operate in the same way as we had been. In other words we wont spend huge on transfers, whilst poch is watching Everton/Fulham splash over 100 million that season. Leicester were using our M/O and signing good young players as they could play them. We could not guarantee them a spot on the bench. I remember when this forum all said we should sign robertson and maguire the year Hull went down. Imagine if we went in and tried to compete for them, what would those guys have thought, I cant get past England and wales number 1's to even get a game. Or Trying to get past vertonghen and Toby.

I knew a youth team player at spurs and he was on loan for 2 years and came back for pre season in Poch's third year. He wanted out reason 1) he looked and thought i cant get past Dembele/Wanyama/Dier and also benteleb/mason by the way i think. that is only 3 years ago and none of them play for us right now. 2) it's not just a myth about Pochettino's training methods as his excuse was also i cant do his training "I am blowing out of my arse" and this kid had trained professionally for 2 years and won a league title that year and got to a cup final i think. 3) was the momentum he had in his career now would stall if he just sat behind them and did not play. He already had played with Onomah and winks at youth level, so knew they were in front of him. I don't tell you this to name drop, but to show you how these guys have to think to stop their career stalling and never achieving anything (look at KWP right now).

Now look at those names above that was 7 players in front of him 2/3 years ago and only 1 would actually be a threat now. That is some change, now his threat would be Winks, Sissoko Ndombele and Lo Celso and 2 of those players have 7 games between them.

jacko73 said:

I knew a youth team player at spurs and he was on loan for 2 years and came back for pre season in Poch's third year. He wanted out reason 1) he looked and thought i cant get past Dembele/Wanyama/Dier and also benteleb/mason by the way i think. that is only 3 years ago and none of them play for us right now. 2) it's not just a myth about Pochettino's training methods as his excuse was also i cant do his training "I am blowing out of my arse" and this kid had trained professionally for 2 years and won a league title that year and got to a cup final i think. 3) was the momentum he had in his career now would stall if he just sat behind them and did not play. He already had played with Onomah and winks at youth level, so knew they were in front of him. I don't tell you this to name drop, but to show you how these guys have to think to stop their career stalling and never achieving anything (look at KWP right now).

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Just throwing this out there, but in that case do you not think that maybe one of Poch’s strengthens may conversely also prove to be weakness?

The ultra fit, train harder, run harder approach could mean burn out is far more likely and that the peak shelf life of a Poch team is shorter.

There are advantages of having a young, hungry team that always buy into this method ( and it certainly synchs well with Levy’s approach), but I’m not sure it’s conducive to winning trophies. You always need a good balance between youth and experience, preferably with some players hitting their peak.

John48 said:

If their running stats showed then in the top 2 or 3 I could accept they may be exhausted, but they're in the bottom 2 or 3 which suggests they aren't fit enough.

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Not motivated enough would be right. I really think they are not playing to the manager already. Good if we are scoring goals and ahead. Trailing behind, we can forget about equalising and/or taking the lead back.

slartibartfast said:

What about that time in 1873 Kansas when it rained frogs?

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Or when the mayor of Warsaw exploded.

carmeldevil said:

Wonder exhausted as in physically or mentally or both?

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I know which one I am watching our team!