The Mauricio Pochettino thread

Coco-1101 said:

yeah tell that to klopp and pep too.

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Yeah, their teams are a shambles at the minute.

Gb160 said:

Yeah, their teams are a shambles at the minute.

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Name a manager who will play as the players want to. Pep was criticized in first season for his style he didn't abandon it but he changed the players. Its manager jobs on the line not players. He did mention this rebuild which means this lots of prima donna had to be shifted this summer but the club failed to do so. ts not so hard to understand.

I think our away record has been pretty shocking in 2019, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for a result on Saturday.

Disappointing that it's come to this...

I think he's done. The results for the past 9 months, the questionable tactics, the unrest in the dressing room and the natural staleness that sets in after a manager has been at a club for this long...it's all too much and I simply can't see him turning it around at this point. The only managers I can think of survived long term at this stage are Moyes at Everton - came 17th the season after finishing 4th then pulled them back to serial Europa candidates - and Wenger, who got destroyed by United 8-2 yet managed to cling on to repeated 4th place finishes in a far less competitive league and won a few FA cups.

As much as I admire Poch as both a bloke and a manager, I think deep down he probably knows he's done too. He won't admit it but there's something going on beneath the surface. As soon as a manager even mentions in passing that they might quit, as he did prior to the CL final, it hints towards a deeper, perhaps even subconscious, level of doubt. If you mentioned in passing to your wife that someday, given the right circumstances, you might leave her do you think that wouldn't have an effect on your relationship, or betray your true feelings? It's not a perfect analogy, but I think there's no fucking way would he would've said that in his 2nd or 3rd season at the club - it hinted that he felt on some level he was thinking this was the end of a cycle, and I think the players have cottoned on to that too. Add in the fact that the novelty has worn off and there's no way we'll ever replicate the heights of our title challenges and CL final of yesteryear, and we're left with a club in the midst of an existential crisis.

The problem is, it still feels a bit ridiculous to sack our best manager for the past 30+ years when we're sat 6th in the table, have a strong squad and are still odds-on favourites to finish in the top 4. Poch has been loyal to us and we owe him more time, but sadly I feel that the longer we wait the worse things will get and our options to replace him will diminish. Does Levy stick or twist? Act swiftly and move for Allegri before Utd sack Ole, or wait and end up with Mourinho in a few months time? Either that or bumble through an average season in which we'll probably end up 5th or 6th in the vain hope Poch can rebuild with "limited" resources and over half the current squad still in place.

As much as I hate myself for saying it, I think the best long term move for the club would be to chase Allegri ASAP. We'll get trounced in the press but he's the one available manager who I feel confident about taking us forward long(ish) term with the potential to rejuvenate and replenish this group of players. If we wait we'll probably end up with an Eddie Howe or Brendan Rodgers, or ride a couple of years on the Mourinho rollercoaster before we're spat out a shell of what Poch has made us with a League Cup to show for it.

Everyone is about not playing DM. Poch always played dm when he had one. He tried crocked wanyama but he is finished. Dier is always injured. Whose fault it is to shift wanyama and bring in fit DM.

I think we need to remember, this is Pochettino's longest job. He's done very well initially at new clubs but has never had to rebuild/dismantle a team of his own, players he originally trusted are now becoming liabilities, I think this is a bit of a learning curve in that sense. Ferguson was a master at it, bringing in fresh faces and even new backroom staff every 3/4 years. This is probably the next step for Pochettino.

Coco-1101 said:

Everyone is about not playing DM. Poch always played dm when he had one. He tried crocked wanyama but he is finished. Dier is always injured. Whose fault it is to shift wanyama and bring in fit DM.

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So if you don't have those players at yoir disposal adapt tactics and formation until you have the right personnel

@rossdapep
If you aspire to win things and compete at high level you can't accept that the players might not be available. The window got closed recently and now have to wait for next year.

What else is the solution. Doesn#t matter if you don't have Dm your defence will be exposed in any formation.

If Poch can turn this around then I’m all for that I just can’t see it. But IF he can then I wish he’d stop playing the fucking diamond and just play this team: (4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid), it worked fine for ages why change it.

Lloris

KWP/Foyth/Aurier
Toby/Sanchez
Jan/Foyth
Rose/Davies

Dier!!!/Wanyama/Skipp (CDM)
Ndombele/Sissoko/Winks (CM)

Lucas/Lamela/Eriksen (RM)
Dele/Lo celso (CAM)
Son/Sessengon (LM)

Kane (ST)

Play like we did 2016-17 when we chased down Leicester or season after when we came 2nd to Chelsea it was 4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid all season , players knew what they were doing and we dominated every game. Ndombele can be dembele and the rest of team apart from KWP is the same or upgraded, really don’t see why he moved away from this, it was working so well we just needed to add a few more players, since then things have spiralled downwards.

fishhhandaricecake said:

If Poch can turn this around then I’m all for that I just can’t see it. But IF he can then I wish he’d stop playing the fucking diamond and just play this team: (4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid), it worked fine for ages why change it.

Lloris

KWP/Foyth/Aurier
Toby/Sanchez
Jan/Foyth
Rose/Davies

Dier!!!/Wanyama/Skipp (CDM)
Ndombele/Sissoko/Winks (CM)

Lucas/Lamela/Eriksen (RM)
Dele/Lo celso (CAM)
Son/Sessengon (LM)

Kane (ST)

Play like we did 2016-17 when we chased down Leicester or season after when we came 2nd to Chelsea it was 4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid all season , players knew what they were doing and we dominated every game. Ndombele can be dembele and the rest of team apart from KWP is the same or upgraded, really don’t see why he moved away from this, it was working so well we just needed to add a few more players, since then things have spiralled downwards.

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I agree we need to go back to some form of 3 at the back/4231 with Dier dropping back into the defence, like we did in 2016/17. We should remember also that we played 3 at the back when we beat Dortmund 3-0 in the CL knockouts last season, which was arguably our best performance of the entire tournament. We definitely have the personnel for it this season, and I think Vertonghen at LB would work. Gives the centre midfielders less running to do as well

Coco-1101 said:

Everyone is about not playing DM. Poch always played dm when he had one. He tried crocked wanyama but he is finished. Dier is always injured. Whose fault it is to shift wanyama and bring in fit DM.

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We clearly didn't prioritise signing a DM in the summer. Whose choice was that? Poch has clearly been set on the diamond for a while as a way of integrating Winks, Sissoko +1 into the same midfield. In reality he needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel, accept that the system doesn't work, and start dropping players for the greater good of the team. Sissoko is useful but I still think it's mental that he's now a guaranteed starter every week and Winks, despite some excellent performances, is now also apparently undroppable regardless of whether or not he suits the opposition.

Poch has gone far too deep down the rabbit hole of systems and tactics. He thinks he needs to change things up constantly and adapt, but him and his management team quite simply aren't good enough at the side of the game - not a touch on Pep, Klopp or the top Italian managers anyway. Poch's forte has always been man management and inspiring full blooded commitment to a simple but effective style of play: (ie. high pressing off the ball, high line,patient possession play on the ball). He's definitely had his moments tactically but they're usually rather simple things like us pushing down Palace's left side or exploiting Azpilicueta's lack of height. But when Poch tries to go full Pep and be a tactical pioneer we end up with the shitshow of the past season. Nowadays our formations are often so fluid and everchanging I think the players don't know what they're meant to be doing half the time. We so often look tactically inferior to our opposition as Poch is so insistent on making whatever system he's set his heart on work, regardless of how bad it looks.

Poch is literally brilliant in every other area of management, but since the beginning tactics have always been his weak point and in my opinion are the reason we have not won a trophy under his tenure. We've so often come undone at the last hurdle because of some tactical mismatch or dodgy substitution in a big game (Son at wingback against Chelsea still haunts my nightmares). I think his need to prove himself in this domain, as well as this perceived imperative to constantly evolve, are a big part of what's killing us at the moment.

Timberwolf said:

We clearly didn't prioritise signing a DM in the summer. Whose choice was that? Poch has clearly been set on the diamond for a while as a way of integrating Winks, Sissoko +1 into the same midfield. In reality he needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel, accept that the system doesn't work, and start dropping players for the greater good of the team. Sissoko is useful but I still think it's mental that he's now a guaranteed starter every week and Winks, despite some excellent performances, is now also apparently undroppable regardless of whether or not he suits the opposition.

Poch has gone far too deep down the rabbit hole of systems and tactics. He thinks he needs to change things up constantly and adapt, but him and his management team quite simply aren't good enough at the side of the game - not a touch on Pep, Klopp or the top Italian managers anyway. Poch's forte has always been man management and inspiring full blooded commitment to a simple but effective style of play: (ie. high pressing off the ball, high line,patient possession play on the ball). He's definitely had his moments tactically but they're usually rather simple things like us pushing down Palace's left side or exploiting Azpilicueta's lack of height. But when Poch tries to go full Pep and be a tactical pioneer we end up with the shitshow of the past season. Nowadays our formations are often so fluid and everchanging I think the players don't know what they're meant to be doing half the time. We so often look tactically inferior to our opposition as Poch is so insistent on making whatever system he's set his heart on work, regardless of how bad it looks.

Poch is literally brilliant in every other area of management, but since the beginning tactics have always been his weak point and in my opinion are the reason we have not won a trophy under his tenure. We've so often come undone at the last hurdle because of some tactical mismatch or dodgy substitution in a big game (Son at wingback against Chelsea still haunts my nightmares). I think his need to prove himself in this domain, as well as this perceived imperative to constantly evolve, are a big part of what's killing us at the moment.

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Agree. He also often seems to pick tactics to me that don’t suit the team we are playing. That’s ok if you are going to just stick to one way of playing no matter the opposition, but when you’re constantly tinkering you have to make sure it matches the team you are facing.

Playing Moura against bus parkers, but then leaving him out against City who can be exposed with pace on the counter springs to mind. Then always trying to play out from the back against City and Liverpool year on year is another. Playing a back 3 against teams sitting back with only one striker, but then abandoning that back 3 against Liverpool’s front 3 and going for a diamond instead in front of a flat back four leaving acres of space in behind.

I find it hard sometimes to follow his thought process tactically.

spursfan77 said:

Or they just don’t want to do it any more. See klopp’s last season in Dortmund for example.

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I don't think they wanted to run out of steam last night. The will was there but players were dead on their feet.

leray said:

4-4-2 Diamond is a standard formation in Italy. Lyon played it last season, so Ndombele knows how to play within it. It normally requires a lot from fullbacks (like wingbacks in 3-5-2), but not from midfielders - they don't need to cover that much space because they're close to almost anybody on the pitch.

It's a formation for controlling the centre and being unpredictable on the wings.

So... what's about our diamond that it requires so much from our midfielders? That they openly say they don't have the fitness to play it?

Either the implementation is wrong, or our fitness levels are just bad.

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You can play the diamond formation any way you want as long as you stick to the pre-defined roles. Inside the formation is what makes or breaks it. The system defines the way you play and that is the difference that Sissoko is on about.

In any high press system the demands are high, both physically and mentally. In a poch counter-press it's a whole different ball game and if any player is found wanting in it then that just magnifies the load on the others. Poch's tactical philosophy stems from his mentor, Bielsa and one of the things that Bielsa's system suffered from was burnout, known appropriately as Bielsa Burnout. We talk about formation as tactics, but a formation is just one part of a tactic. Given current fitness levels, it should come as no surprise whatsoever that we are playing the way we are. The only question we should be asking is can it change?

Coco-1101 said:

Name a manager who will play as the players want to. Pep was criticized in first season for his style he didn't abandon it but he changed the players. Its manager jobs on the line not players. He did mention this rebuild which means this lots of prima donna had to be shifted this summer but the club failed to do so. ts not so hard to understand.

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Poch does not have to pick the same players each week though. We have 25 decent ones to choose from.

Matt Law in the Telegraph saying it’s business as usual and Poch has full backing of the club and Levy.

Sounds about right. We haven’t entered crisis mode just yet but I do think we aren’t far away. We know that Levy won’t react emotionally like us fans do however I do think the next three or four games are critical. Anything less than 6 points from the next two will be terrible.

I reckon if we end up losing the next two, and get a mauling at Liverpool, that’s when Levy will act.

I think Poch gets another 4 - 6 weeks or so

Ben1 said:

I would suggest that the amount of support our fullbacks constantly require doesn't help.

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Agree but I also think that our base of the diamond is a square peg in a round hole and doesn't provide the full backs protection should they go forward. That is not a dig at Winks but I just don't think that he suits that position.

Coco-1101 said:

Name a manager who will play as the players want to. Pep was criticized in first season for his style he didn't abandon it but he changed the players. Its manager jobs on the line not players. He did mention this rebuild which means this lots of prima donna had to be shifted this summer but the club failed to do so. ts not so hard to understand.

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Pep changed his goalkeeper, and that's about it.

Klopp swapped out a calamity goalkeeper (twice) and a useless defender who thought he was the doggys.

We have a goalkeeper who is literally useless at distribution (we've all known it for some time) and makes mistakes under pressure, and still Poch wants him to pass it out. He won't change him, so it's tactical sabotage. We play with fullbacks high up, and constantly get caught out behind. That's not down to the players (see Walker, Trippier and their post-spurs look), it's tactical. We bought a big lump of a striker who changed games when we played to his strengths, yet he was both under and misused for the majority of his appearances with us playing low through the middle instead crossing the ball in. Etc. etc.

Our tactical issues are basically due to players Poch won't drop or replace - it's not comparable to the way Klopp and Pep have built/adapted their teams.


What's more annoying is when he swaps from systems that seem to really suit our players - especially when we're in form (if we remember those days....)

Primativ said:

Sounds about right. We haven’t entered crisis mode just yet but I do think we aren’t far away. We know that Levy won’t react emotionally like us fans do however I do think the next three or four games are critical. Anything less than 6 points from the next two will be terrible.

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With that much money on the line, DL can't afford to get emotional.

Primativ said:

Matt Law in the Telegraph saying it’s business as usual and Poch has full backing of the club and Levy.

Sounds about right. We haven’t entered crisis mode just yet but I do think we aren’t far away. We know that Levy won’t react emotionally like us fans do however I do think the next three or four games are critical. Anything less than 6 points from the next two will be terrible.

I reckon if we end up losing the next two, and get a mauling at Liverpool, that’s when Levy will act.

I think Poch gets another 4 - 6 weeks or so

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Will it be alright if we win the next 2 and lose by 3 or 4 to Liverpool?