The Mauricio Pochettino thread

WiganSpur · Sep 30, 2019

spids said:
It really shows how keeping nearly all of the the first team squad the same for so long under the same manager is not healthy. For example, yesterday's team and subs, nearly all of them have been here since Poch started.

Pochettino (in 6th season)

Lloris (in 8th season)
Rose (in 13th year with club, in 7th season in first team)
Alderweireld (in 5th season)
Vertonghen (in 8th season)
Aurier (in 3rd season)
Winks (in 6th year as a pro with club, in 3rd season in the first team)
Sissoko (in 4th season)
Ndombele (in 1st season)
Eriksen (in 7th season)
Son (in 5th season)
Kane (in 10th year as a pro with club, 6th season in the first team)

Dier (in 6th season)
Lamela (in 7th season)
Wanyama (in 4th season)

Sir Alex Ferguson used to refresh his teams every 3 or 4 years. Hughes, Ince, Staam, Keane, Van Nistelrooy, Beckham - mostly sold when they were at the end of their peak and no longer 100% behind the manager. Excluding Winks and Kane - home grown in a similar way to the United 'Fergie Fledglings' - Lloris, Rose, Eriksen and maybe Vertonghen are all due a change. They are all in their 6th season under Poch. Surely the message, the training, the tactics, the shock methods, etc. all become stale. We should have got rid of Eriksen last summer when he wasn't committing to a new contract. Lloris could have gone a year ago too, and he had a very inconsistent season last year.

There's an element of truth to this but if you're going to mention players like Eriksen, Vertonghen, Rose, Dier etc. who have shown dips in performance, then you have to mention the likes of Kane, Son, Winks and Sissoko who have either maintained or improved their levels.

I think the more likely cause is some sort of change in Poch. Maybe he's not lost the dressing room as such but maybe he's just not been the motivator he was, both publicly and privately.

Dougal · Sep 30, 2019

mattyspurs said:
@Dougal

Your biscuit will be soggy tomorrow.

nailsy · Sep 30, 2019

mattyspurs said:
@Dougal

spids · Sep 30, 2019

WiganSpur said:
There's an element of truth to this but if you're going to mention players like Eriksen, Vertonghen, Rose, Dier etc. who have shown dips in performance, then you have to mention the likes of Kane, Son, Winks and Sissoko who have either maintained or improved their levels.

I think the more likely cause is some sort of change in Poch. Maybe he's not lost the dressing room as such but maybe he's just not been the motivator he was, both publicly and privately.

So you’re kind of backing up my point. Sissoko, Winks, Son etc. all been in the first XI 4 years or less. Still motivated. Eriksen, Lloris, Rose .. all 7 years +. Kane home grown obviously, could do a Giggs / Scholes and be here his whole career.

mattyspurs · Sep 30, 2019

Dougal said:
Your biscuit will be soggy tomorrow.

Tease

Primativ · Sep 30, 2019

You look at the state of United and Arsenal, pus Chelsea unable to buy and relying on Mount and Abraham...Poch really has no excuses not to be clear third and pushing the top two this season.

I’m not saying we should be level with the top two, but we have to be closer to the top two than we are closer to those other three sides.

If in April we are battling it out with United, Arsenal and Chelsea, Poch has had an absolute shocker. Our first 11 and squad is miles better than those other teams.

rez9000 · Sep 30, 2019

Primativ said:
You look at the state of United and Arsenal, pus Chelsea unable to buy and relying on Mount and Abraham...Poch really has no excuses not to be clear third and pushing the top two this season.

I’m not saying we should be level with the top two, but we have to be closer to the top two than we are closer to those other three sides.

If in April we are battling it out with United, Arsenal and Chelsea, Poch has had an absolute shocker. Our first 11 and squad is miles better than those other teams.

The thing there, though is that you're working from a specific assumption. But the fact of the matter is we don't know what the issue is.

Now, I'll stress, I'm not disagreeing that there is an issue with the manager, but at the same time I'm not agreeing with that idea either. We don't know.

Someone being answerable for something doesn't necessarily mean that a situation can't or won't develop and your position for a while has been consistently to place the blame on Poch and demand that he repair the issue.

Even if you're right, (and, I repeat, I'm not saying you're not but I'm also not saying you are), the issues may not be as easily or as quickly resolved.

Just as a for instance, let's say that Poch wants a squad revamp to push on from where we are, but hasn't been able to complete it - for whatever reason - and that has led to some unsettled-ness. The larger objective is one that he may well be able to deliver, but not necessarily within a season. The smaller objective - a settled squad - may well be a sacrifice worth making in the long-term.

That's just one possibility that would mean battling Man U, Arse and Chelsea in April wouldn't necessarily equate to a poor season. We have to wait and see and not draw too many hard lines. I appreciate that the desire to see our upward trajectory continue can make things seem very knife-edge - I feel that myself - but there will be lots going on that we simply don't see and never will. We have to just go for the ride and hope.

topper · Sep 30, 2019

Rob said:
He's the Donna to my Daniel

Jeez - you’ve gotta feel for little Daniel!!

arnoldlayne · Oct 1, 2019

Dougal said:
Your biscuit will be soggy tomorrow.

Is that a euphemism?

DCSPUR · Oct 1, 2019

Primativ said:
You look at the state of United and Arsenal, pus Chelsea unable to buy and relying on Mount and Abraham...Poch really has no excuses not to be clear third and pushing the top two this season.

I’m not saying we should be level with the top two, but we have to be closer to the top two than we are closer to those other three sides.

If in April we are battling it out with United, Arsenal and Chelsea, Poch has had an absolute shocker. Our first 11 and squad is miles better than those other teams.

and a bloomin big part of why is that Poch has been able to improve and develop many of them both in their game and mentally.

DCSPUR · Oct 1, 2019

DCSPUR said:
Just adding to this. The utter agenda driven tripe against Poch in recent weeks (largely online to be honest) was shown to be the nonsense it is. That second half performance was a collective performance that does not happen if you aren't unified. There are some who have been fueling this negativity that need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask whether they are part of or being used to push an agenda.
It is certain that they have not helped the club in recent weeks. And to be clear I am not talking about those disagreeing with Poch on tactics.
Anyway - well done to Poch and the team today - COYS!

Adding to this a little:
Ben Pearce

#thfc Toby Alderweireld on Saturday's win: "We said at half time, ‘This is the moment to prove that we are a team’. It had all the ingredients to lose the game and I think we were wonderful. This is the most important win of the season."

#thfc FT: 2-1 to Spurs. A fortnight ago, Spurs answered questions about their ability to score goals at home by blowing Palace away. This time, when the team spirit & work ethic was being questioned, they've won with 10 men. Issues remain but, again, this was just what was needed

Gb160 · Oct 1, 2019

Primativ said:
If in April we are battling it out with United, Arsenal and Chelsea, Poch has had an absolute shocker.

This is just being dramatic.
If we are third at the end end of the season, by 10 points or on goal difference, ill be more than happy.
You can say on paper we have a better squad than the teams you've mentioned, but the game isn't played on paper, and considering the issues we know of grumbling away in the background, almost half the team failing to get moves in the summer, 3rd (by any means) will be a success for me all things considered.

If our entire squad was happy and they'd all signed new contracts, and everything was unicorns and rainbows, then maybe your dramatic claim would be valid.

Primativ · Oct 1, 2019

Gb160 said:
This is just being dramatic.
If we are third at the end end of the season, by 10 points or on goal difference, ill be more than happy.
You can say on paper we have a better squad than the teams you've mentioned, but the game isn't played on paper, and considering the issues we know of grumbling away in the background, almost half the team failing to get moves in the summer, 3rd (by any means) will be a success for me all things considered.

If our entire squad was happy and they'd all signed new contracts, and everything was unicorns and rainbows, then maybe your dramatic claim would be valid.

It’s not a dramatic claim. People are getting their excuses in for him early.

Frankly, with the team we’ve had over the past five years, it’s a tragedy Poch hasn’t delivered a trophy.

We are the only top 6 side not to win a single trophy.

If you’re telling me that you’ll be happy if we are battling it out amongst United Chelsea and Arsenal by seasons end is acceptable, well it isn’t. Those teams are in disarray or are just very weak.

People talk about a rebuild but it’s only Alderweireld and Erisken who are looking to leave. Rose apparently didn’t want to leave in the summer according to ITKs and Verts may sign a new contract. The rest of our squad aren’t going anywhere and have been together for years. Saying Poch is in the middle of a rebuild and he has one hand tied behind his back is just making excuses.

Every year there’s always excuses trotted out for him and fair enough, the stadium issues have been valid ones in the past, but he has no excuses now. We’ve already lost two league games this season which is a poor start. People need to stop with this “let him off he’s in the middle of a rebuild”
Nonsense. It’s not true. At best maybe two or three regular first players are moving on at the end of the season, hardly a huge rebuild but that is for next summer not this season.

Gb160 · Oct 1, 2019

Primativ said:
If you’re telling me that you’ll be happy if we are battling it out amongst United Chelsea and Arsenal by seasons end is acceptable, well it isn’t.

Well it might not be for you, but you're a right old drama queen.
If you think that suddenly the 20 odd point difference between us and Liverpool/City is going to magically disappear in one season, then you're deluded.

wrd · Oct 1, 2019

The Poch-Out 11 looks like it's having some dressing room unrest itself

Gb160 · Oct 1, 2019

wrd said:
The Poch-Out 11 looks like it's having some dressing room unrest itself

I had it off with Primativs missus.

Primativ · Oct 1, 2019

Gb160 said:
Well it might not be for you, but you're a right old drama queen.
If you think that suddenly the 20 odd point difference between us and Liverpool/City is going to magically disappear in one season, then you're deluded.

That’s not what I said. I’m not expecting us to get 90 odd points but we should be clear in third. Do you disagree with that?

Gb160 · Oct 1, 2019

Primativ said:
That’s not what I said. I’m not expecting us to get 90 odd points but we should be clear in third. Do you disagree with that?

I agree we should finish third, ideally clearly.
I disagree that he's had a shocker if its not the case.

Shadydan · Oct 1, 2019

Finish on 80 points = acceptable
Finish on 79 points = shocker

Sounds about right

Gb160 · Oct 1, 2019

Shadydan said:
Finish on 80 points = acceptable
Finish on 79 points = shocker

Sounds about right

This is why I called him dramatic...there is no middle ground.

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