The Mauricio Pochettino thread

PhezTHFC · Sep 26, 2019

felmani26 said:
Care to elaborate then if that's not the manager's/coach's remit?

If the players don't fulfil what he is saying.

If the players like Eriksen are causing tension the coach can't do anything other then out him but what else will happen afterwards?

Generally just an awful run of results. Last season can he ignored, the players wanted champions league that is where that downfall came in.

So many factors can be blamed but no way are we ready for Poch out for a while yet.

shelfboy68 · Sep 26, 2019

Chris Finch said:
I am very much in the Poch in camp. People need to remember where we were before he arrived.
If however he does decide to leave then Allegri would be an incredible appointment

I agree if poch left or got binned this fella I would like certainly not interested in the klinsmann rumours fake news I fear, but allegri would be a sound appointment certainly sort the defence out.

dagraham · Sep 26, 2019

PhezTHFC said:
Think people need some happy pills in here ffs.

Can't always blame the manager, the performance against Colchester was not Pochs fault. A lot of others could be blamed but we usually start slow and it always costs us come the end of the season.

Poch out (flannels) brigade can do one for me, the guy has got us away from mediocrity up to champions league finalists with a thread bare squad which wasn't improved for 18 months. Think he deserves a little more respect and time from you all.

We aren't under or over achieving we are where we should be.

I am not at the stage of wanting Poch out, but I have to disagree here.

Of course it’s true that the quality of players we have compared to the opposition means we should win every time, but it was Poch who decided to line up against a league 2 team with 3 CB’s and Skipp and Wanyama in midfield. And then shock horror we create fuck all.

And you say we always start slow, but surely as the manager Poch has some responsibility for that?

freeeki · Sep 26, 2019

Chris Finch said:
I am very much in the Poch in camp. People need to remember where we were before he arrived.
If however he does decide to leave then Allegri would be an incredible appointment

In the 5 years Poch has been here: 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th

Previous 5: 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th

Previous 5: 9th, 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th

Under Poch, our average league finish has improved by 1.4 places compared to the previous 5 seasons. Yes it's an improvement, but the trajectory of our improvement has slowed, and has now beyond any doubt begun going backwards.

We have secured 19 points from 18 games. That is relegation form, and it's not a recent blip. The decline has been going on for a year.

spursfan77 · Sep 26, 2019

Gb160 said:
This is one of my main fears tbh.

I think he will give us this season and next and then that will be it

spursfan77 · Sep 26, 2019

southlondonyiddo said:
Up until last season:

Net spend Prem clubs over last 10 years.

CITY £1bn
UTD £600m
CHEL £569
LIV £334m
ARS £273m
WHU £223m
EVE £213m
BOU £176m
CRY £174m
LEI 168m
BHA £147m
WOL £142m
FUL £130m
WAT £108m
CAR £91m
BUR £79m
HUD £72m
NEW £60m
SOU £39m
THFC 9m

That took longer than I thought to appear!

dudu · Sep 26, 2019

Gb160 said:
Exactly, Liverpool lost a CL final and instead of starting from scratch they spent big in positions they desperately needed strengthening in.
Fast forward 12 months and they win the CL and come within a rizlas width of winning the league.
We lose the CL final, so bulldoze the lot and start from scratch.

Pretty lazy comparison between the two situations.

Primativ · Sep 26, 2019

freeeki said:
In the 5 years Poch has been here: 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th

Previous 5: 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th

Previous 5: 9th, 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th

Under Poch, our average league finish has improved by 1.4 places compared to the previous 5 seasons. Yes it's an improvement, but the trajectory of our improvement has slowed, and has now beyond any doubt begun going backwards.

We have secured 19 points from 18 games. That is relegation form, and it's not a recent blip. The decline has been going on for a year.

It’s a really important point anyone with an objective view would come to. People need to remember we were already hovering around the CL places before Poch came in. Obviously it’s a difficult step to take to finish CL regularly but Pochs tenure has coincided with the emergence of Kane and the best squad in my lifetime. So let’s be honest, if he didn’t get CL qualification, he would have been sacked ages ago. I believe CL qualification is the minimum requirement with this current Spurs squad.

Unfortunately, if you step away from the CL qualification, his tenure is open to scrutiny and it doesn’t make great reading. The Football has never been consistently great, although it was much better three or four years ago. For the last two years it’s been largely poor, and often terrible, and also there are the consistent failures to win trophies when up against our rivals. The FA Cup semi final loss to United at Wembley for me was the most disappointing result of his reign. But we’ve lost countless games against our rivals, Chelsea league cup last season, Chelsea fa cup semi final two or three seasons ago. On top of that, we have never in a single season actually properly led a title charge from the start. We have continually been playing catch up and never actually led the way, which is strange. The Leicester season for me is when we should have won the league. In hindsight it was a shocker why we made such a poor start to the season and had to play catch up. Then we lost to Leicester at home when we were sucker punched by that header. The consistent theme is we ALWAYS fall short under Poch.

My memory of Poch will be a good manager but a nearly man unfortunately. I think someone else could have done an even better job and actually won stuff with this group of players. It’s sad that this cycle has come to an end empty handed. That is Pochs fault largely. The reason we lose these big cup games is mentality and tactical details. Like starting Son at wing back ??‍

conte came in and straight away schooled Poch in a huge game.

And fans should really be concerned about Kane getting itchy feet. City will need a replacement for Aguero soon.

Gb160 · Sep 26, 2019

dudu said:
Pretty lazy comparison between the two situations.

Do go on...

daveduvet · Sep 26, 2019

Snarfalicious said:
He’s still the man I want at the helm. He deserves our full support considering what he has done for our club. Unbelievable to think otherwise, even if it’s been a long stretch of poor form.

Agreed. If we throw in the towel now, the current players will never learn to dig-in within difficult situations - a strategy needed in tough games. Psychologically, I feel it’s heads-together and work through this shit... the players aren’t total automatons.. each, from the top down at the club, need to strengthen their individual resolve towards collective responsibility...

southlondonyiddo · Sep 26, 2019

spursfan77 said:
That took longer than I thought to appear!

No relevance to whether we've overachieved in the last 10 years?

southlondonyiddo · Sep 26, 2019

freeeki said:
In the 5 years Poch has been here: 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th

Previous 5: 4th, 5th, 4th, 5th, 6th

Previous 5: 9th, 5th, 5th, 11th, 8th

Under Poch, our average league finish has improved by 1.4 places compared to the previous 5 seasons. Yes it's an improvement, but the trajectory of our improvement has slowed, and has now beyond any doubt begun going backwards.

We have secured 19 points from 18 games. That is relegation form, and it's not a recent blip. The decline has been going on for a year.

Anyone would think that decline has been going on ever since we spent Zero In Two consecutive transfer windows...

spursfan77 · Sep 26, 2019

southlondonyiddo said:
No relevance to whether we've overachieved in the last 10 years?

Completely. Its usually used as a stick to beat Levy with though without taking into consideration building a stadium.

Don't think it will change much either, as for the new loan we will have to stay within certain accounting parameters.

That should help the mood :ROFLMAO:

Everlasting Seconds · Sep 26, 2019

NEVILLEB said:
I don’t think a new Manager is going to make a big difference. Our transfer policy isn’t designed to help us win the league.

Poch has overachieved and no investment for so many years has caught up with us.

I'm undecided whether I feel that he has literally/scientifically overachieved. I fully believe that he has achieved very well and by and large he can be happy with his time at Tottenham. And if we are talking strictly financially, maybe there is a case for claiming scientifically or objectively that he has indeed overachieved. But if we look at the table of each season that Tottenham finished top 4, and we look at which other large teams failed, and we look at how good our best players actually were (Pochettino has had a core of some really good players), I'm inclined to believe that each separate instance of a top 4 finish was in fact not really an overachievement.

The lack of spending that people are talking about is of course a problem, but that has mainly prevented us from winning trophies, and it has lead to where we are today. But I doubt very much that it over the past seasons has been a reason for why we "normally" "shouldn't" have finished top 4 over the last few years.

I've loved the consecutive CL campaigns, it is well done and has had immense importance to the club. I just don't really think it is a grand feat to the degree of overachieving.

dudu · Sep 26, 2019

Gb160 said:
Do go on...

Stadium build has played a huge role in everything to do with our club the last 3 years, something Liverpool did not have to deal with. I also don't think we were at a level to be able to just strengthen a couple of positions after losing the CL final to be able to come in this season and dominate.

Liverpool bought a premier league ready beast to fill their most glaring problem in the side. We spent big on bolstering our CM with players who were not prem ready and will take time to adjust, much like L'pool's big CM purchases.

I'm not defending or blaming anyone in particular, but for me, the whole timing was off for us. We peaked at a time that we couldn't invest how or where we wanted and needed to.

PhezTHFC · Sep 26, 2019

dagraham said:
I am not at the stage of wanting Poch out, but I have to disagree here.

Of course it’s true that the quality of players we have compared to the opposition means we should win every time, but it was Poch who decided to line up against a league 2 team with 3 CB’s and Skipp and Wanyama in midfield. And then shock horror we create fuck all.

And you say we always start slow, but surely as the manager Poch has some responsibility for that?

Never said he didn't warrant responsibility for our slow starts.

Yeah but we still had Dele and Moura with a team, regardless of attacking threat in the prem, more than capable of scoring in league 2 games.

nailsy · Sep 26, 2019

Navy Spur said:
Does anyone think DL may be hoping Zidane or maybe even Ollie get the heave ho soon and he can strike a deal which would see us receive some money for Poch?

I've mentioned it a couple of times. I can't see Levy letting him go to United because he would strengthen them massively. If we did sack Poch they'd be all over him. It would be a massive own goal.

Everlasting Seconds said:
I think on one side of this debate, there are the die-hard optimists. These are the kind of people who thinks that football fandom is all about identifying a point in future in which everything will be so much more golden than today. They often start their posts with "when" as in whenever some current issue is sorted. Back in 2015, these posters would proclaim that Nabil Bentaleb would become Tottenham captain and Ryan Mason would be converted to a deadly AM, and that the squad was just young and inexperienced. Give that squad 5 years and Tottenham would be flying.
The squad has been given 5 years, and now it must be rebuilt.

On the other side of the debate, there are posters who just call a spade a spade. But pure realism is always shot down by the most absurd come backs. "Yer do well to know yer place, laddy! Maybe yer don't remember the 90's, son?".
Yes, let's just keep doing the same mistakes today because the goddarn fucking 90s.

Describing reality has never really been fully accepted as a view. If we could talk more about realities with some ease throughout, maybe the debate would seem less extreme and polarised.

It's not that simple though is it? Keeping him is a risk. Replacing him is a risk. The realists optimistically believe that everything will improve if we replace him. The optimists realistically believe that things could get worse if he goes.

Bobbins said:
One thing I will say about all this is that usually, when a club gets to this stage - players unhappy, fanbase turning, results poor over a long period - it’s unsaveable. The manager’s lost the dressing room, the fans are ridiculing the team, the chairman has lost faith in his ability to turn things around. The end has come and there’s no stopping the train.

I don’t think any of that’s the case with Poch.

He hasn’t lost the dressing room - most of the squad still believe in him and the project and are bought into it.

The fans haven’t turned against him - not completely and not the core support. We all know how much we have loved Poch over the last few years and it wouldn’t take much at all for that feeling to come roaring back.

He hasn’t lost the faith of the chairman. We know how highly Levy rates Poch and how strong their personal relationship is. It will take something really awful to damage that beyond repair.

He can definitely recover this situation. But he needs to make changes - with himself, with the players, and with Levy.

First of all he needs to stop the personal negativity. He’s a clever guy and he needs to realise how much of an effect his comments have. He’s forever complaining to the press that they mis-represent his words - but he needs to be more careful with what he says. No more misery, no more complaints, no more flirting with other clubs. We need relentless positivity, togetherness and dedication to the new project.

Second, he needs to get rid of those dissenting voices. He talked of a painful rebuild in the summer but it didn’t happen. In January he needs to get the likes of Eriksen, Jan, Toby and Rose out of the club - if indeed those are the players he’s talking about. He did it when he arrived at the club with the likes of Kaboul and Lennon, so it needs that same ruthlessness. He needs to go back to what made us consistent in the past - consistent team selections and tactics. We’ve heard the players are fed up of the constant selection changes, tactical changes and being asked to fulfil different roles every week. Pick our best 11, whatever that is in Poch’s mind, pick the formation, and stick to it with the minimum possible changes week in week out. And that leads us to the final point.

He’s got to be ruthless with Levy. He needs to make it clear certain players have no place at the club any more and it’s Levy’s job to get them out. And it’s also his job to get the next generation in to replace them - either internally or with signings.

Normally a manager is a dead man walking once things have got to this stage. Poch is the only one I’ve seen who could still turn it around.

If the rumours are true then half the team that started the Champions League final want to leave (or have gone already). Then there's also Wanyama and Aurier who we were also trying to sell. I doubt the entire dressing room have turned on him, but there's probably quite a few players who are no longer invested in the project as they don't see their futures here. It's easy to see why he keeps mentioning about different attitudes, but he needs to do something about it. If they aren't invested and aren't playing well enough then drop them - which to be fair is what it looks like he's doing with Eriksen now.

Everlasting Seconds · Sep 26, 2019

nailsy said:
It's not that simple though is it? Keeping him is a risk. Replacing him is a risk. The realists optimistically believe that everything will improve if we replace him. The optimists realistically believe that things could get worse if he goes.

You have a fair point and I like it. No, we don't know if anything will get better. But many of the realists think that right now is pretty shit, which it is, and that it might regretfully be unavoidable that Pochettino will have to go or leave.

rabbikeane · Sep 26, 2019

daveduvet said:
Agreed. If we throw in the towel now, the current players will never learn to dig-in within difficult situations - a strategy needed in tough games. Psychologically, I feel it’s heads-together and work through this shit... the players aren’t total automatons.. each, from the top down at the club, need to strengthen their individual resolve towards collective responsibility...

They might learn that at Tottenham Hotspur you are expected to deliver to a certain level and that if you fail there are world class quality people out there eager to replace you.

Nebby · Sep 26, 2019

First full season in our lovely new stadium. CL finalists no less. All that hope and expectation.

We've not even reached the end of September, and look at the mess we're in.

It could only happen at Spurs.

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Well done boys. Good process

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My eyes have seen some of the glory..

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