The beginning of the end...

Timberwolf · Aug 28, 2019

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg said:
I think this is going to be the crux of any argument moving forward - be it Jose or another manager - fans will always want to win things, now so more than ever because everything else is supposedly in place - so do you sacrifice a manager who develops things the right way, cultivates a squad, develops youth (I know some debate this) and win something 'organically' or do you go for results based football with a mentality that drives a perhaps 'win at all costs' attitude while passing over the organic stuff?

Be interesting to see folks take on this if it is indeed the beginning of the end.

I think if you asked Utd fans if they'd trade the trophies they won under Mou for steady progression and top 4 finishes under Poch a lot of them would bite your hand off. Admittedly, unlike us, Utd fans have been showered in trophies so are somewhat spoiled, but most of them are deeply dissatisfied with the direction their club has taken over the past few years despite what they've won.

Given our recent trophy drought it's a lot more tempting, but is it worth trading 1 FA Cup and a Europa League win for the disintegration of everything Poch has built? It's a tricky one. Especially when there's no absolute guarantee we'd even win anything.

Deleted member 27995 · Aug 28, 2019

Timberwolf said:
I think if you asked Utd fans if they'd trade the trophies they won under Mou for steady progression and top 4 finishes under Poch a lot of them would bite your hand off. Admittedly, unlike us, Utd fans have been showered in trophies so are somewhat spoiled, but most of them are deeply dissatisfied with the direction their club has taken over the past few years despite what they've won.

Hence why I wonder if our fans would happily swap the progression we have made for say the two trophies he won while he was there ...

Gb160 · Aug 28, 2019

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg said:
Bat signal just went up ...

I didn't get the email.

Kiedis · Aug 28, 2019

Primativ said:
But the most sobering thought of all, is we were very close to having 3 straight defeats this season, two of which are at home. People can say well we didn't, but if that lucky deflection never fell to Kane in the 70th odd minute, the Villa game was going the same way as the Newcastle game. We walked away from the Villa game 3 weeks ago knowing we'd gotten away with one there, and it papered over the cracks.

That feels a bit forced. We pummeled Villa with 31 shots to 7 and had them pinned in their own box for about 60 minutes. We've seen the same game numerous times, where we just keep turning the screw until the opponents buckle. It's not always sexy and swashbuckling, but it's something we've consistently done since we became a decent team.

The next two games weren't good, absolutely, but putting the Villa game in the same heap feels like you're rewriting what happened to make it fit into a predetermined narrative.

Everything may well be going to shit, but I think it's a bit early to safely come to that conclusion.

Blackrat1299 · Aug 28, 2019

Flashspur · Aug 28, 2019

I think it’s sad that our fans have to jump on the manager after 3 games. He deserves more respect and he has earned the right to have more time to put things right.

Deleted member 29446 · Aug 28, 2019

yankspurs said:
Still going with the meltdown, are we? You people are beyond saving. Go and believe what you want. Us rational people will just be here laughing at you in 3 weeks time.

You have already said that 4 times in 88 pages.

See you in about 7 pages again.

Shadydan · Aug 28, 2019

This thread is quite something

'O Zio · Aug 28, 2019

spursfan77 said:
The performance actually means more than the result to me. I need to see the players wanting to win and attack.

I can even forgive the kind of defensive mistake that Sanchez made on Sunday, because those kind of things happen.

What I can’t stomach, is no fight, no desire, no dragging themselves off the pitch like they’ve given their all, no movement, no incisiveness, no quick passing, no risks, no belief, no playing for one another. Not one of those things was present against Newcastle, if they are all there and we lose 3 2 or something like that, at least I’ll be satisfied the players actually want to be there.

Well said, as bad as losing at home to Newcastle is, it was the performance more than anything that has me worried.

Gb160 · Aug 28, 2019

Flashspur said:
He deserves more respect and he has earned the right to have more time to put things right.

An extremely small number of posters here would disagree with that, just to make the thread's current tone clear.

Coyboy · Aug 28, 2019

Indisguise said:
I think Poch's comments for the last year or so have clearly been saying that the writing is on the wall.

Oh god, please not Maureen. Literally anyone but Maureen.

Really?

Deleted member 27995 · Aug 28, 2019

Coyboy said:
Really?

Not tickled by the thought of a tight at the back route one Tony Pulis lead team? You just aren't thinking bigger picture.

doctor stefan Freud · Aug 28, 2019

Timberwolf said:
I think if you asked Utd fans if they'd trade the trophies they won under Mou for steady progression and top 4 finishes under Poch a lot of them would bite your hand off. Admittedly, unlike us, Utd fans have been showered in trophies so are somewhat spoiled, but most of them are deeply dissatisfied with the direction their club has taken over the past few years despite what they've won.

I think you’re right. The only trophies I really value are the CL and Premier League. The FA Cup has a romantic quality but I’d take top 4 finishes and progression in the CL over the occasional FA and ADHD Cups.

The problem at the moment is that we aren’t playing like a top 4 club. I’d love the continuity of an effective Poch over ten years, because Klopp and Pep would at some point move on- that’s the most realistic way we could win the league, when both those clubs are going through transitional periods.

This is why it’s so important that whatever is going on behind the scenes, whatever mitigating factors surround the funk (not the James Brown variety) our squad is currently in, should be resolved. Keeping Poch is vital, but it has to be on terms that see us back to our dynamic, roaring best, not some AVBesque groin dribble

Wheeler Dealer · Aug 28, 2019

Flashspur said:
I think it’s sad that our fans have to jump on the manager after 3 games. He deserves more respect and he has earned the right to have more time to put things right.

With all due respect, it's not just the 3 games this season, its also the dramatic tail off at the back end of last year combined with this year that has left many fans, me included a little concerned

Primativ · Aug 28, 2019

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg said:
While I won't disagree that overall performances in the last 3 months of last season and the first 3 games of this season have been poor, can we stop taking away from the game that matter of 'luck' - it's been part of the game since the year dot and affects all sports. We've had both good and bad luck in the opening three games as well as toward the end of last season, as have other teams. It's just a factor in the sport. Using it as a way of bashing the team/coach to back a point of view is lazy.

I know what you are saying, but you must get what I mean here. The villa game was a struggle, and we were 15 minutes away from defeat, we got battered at City and lost on Sunday. Basically, none of the games have been anything like convincing, not what you'd expect from a top 3 side. You can include 5 months of last season in this assessment too.

You can't blame new signings not being bedded in, or injuries. We had loads of top quality players out there for all 3 games. It seems we've become an excuse factory under Poch recently, and whilst some were justified at the time, like playing at Wembley and a bad injury list last season, now they have to stop. Poch really has nowhere to hide this season.

Kiedis said:
That feels a bit forced. We pummeled Villa with 31 shots to 7 and had them pinned in their own box for about 60 minutes. We've seen the same game numerous times, where we just keep turning the screw until the opponents buckle. It's not always sexy and swashbuckling, but it's something we've consistently done since we became a decent team.

The next two games weren't good, absolutely, but putting the Villa game in the same heap feels like you're rewriting what happened to make it fit into a predetermined narrative.

Everything may well be going to shit, but I think it's a bit early to safely come to that conclusion.

The Villa game was very much like the Newcastle game. Granted we played slightly better, but it was still extremely slow and pedestrian. yes we pummeled them with shots but we didn't create many clear cut chances at all. The difference is Villa wilted once we found the equaliser, but it was still skin of your teeth stuff. Nobody can say it was a convincing performance. We were all sitting there at 65 minutes feeling exactly like we were on Sunday. The last 15 minutes ensured the previous 70 minutes of huffing and puffing were largely forgotten.

I don't need to fit a narrative, the results and performances do that for me. We have taken 15 points from as many League games and lost 11 of the last 21 matches in all competitions, winning just seven.

Deleted member 27995 · Aug 28, 2019

Primativ said:
I know what you are saying, but you must get what I mean here. The villa game was a struggle, and we were 15 minutes away from defeat, we got battered at City and lost on Sunday. Basically, none of the games have been anything like convincing, not what you'd expect from a top 3 side. You can include 5 months of last season in this assessment too.

You can't blame new signings not being bedded in, or injuries. We had loads of top quality players out there for all 3 games. It seems we've become an excuse factory under Poch recently, and whilst some were justified at the time, like playing at Wembley and a bad injury list last season, now they have to stop. Poch really has nowhere to hide this season.

I was talking about luck, nothing more and nothing less.

Spursfan1414 · Aug 28, 2019

Wheeler Dealer said:
With all due respect, it's not just the 3 games this season, its also the dramatic tail off at the back end of last year combined with this year that has left many fans, me included a little concerned

A lot of it is to do with just these three matches though, weren’t many people talking about “the beginning of the end” during the summer were there?

pablo73 · Aug 28, 2019

guiltyparty said:
All got a bit Brexity in here

It’s possible to hold a centrist opinion - recognise everything Poch’s done, while being concerned at what’s happening.

One doesn’t invalidate the other

yankspurs said:
Still going with the meltdown, are we? You people are beyond saving. Go and believe what you want. Us rational people will just be here laughing at you in 3 weeks time.

Thanks, that gave me a good laugh

John48 · Aug 28, 2019

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg said:
Hence why I wonder if our fans would happily swap the progression we have made for say the two trophies he won while he was there ...

But that's issue, whilst we got the CL final, as a team we're showing very little sign of progression, especially in the Prem.

Klopp brings in players & they improve the team, it looks as Emery is bringing players that improve the team, but so far the players we've brought in haven't improved the team & if anything we are regressing.

All 3 performances thus far in the Prem have been poor & rather than concentrating on this Poch keeps talking about how unsettled the squad is & TW's closing at different times, but it's not just this season because the back end of last season was equally as poor.

Archibald&Crooks · Aug 28, 2019

SC, after reading their coffee grounds, have decided that Catch 22 is now official policy............We want to win things but we want to do it without throwing money at it and by playing entertaining football while we're at it. Results don't matter as much as performances, but at the same time results do matter more than performances and it won't be under the current manager but we don't want him out. In order for Poch to stay we must start playing more exciting football and start winning more, but winning doesn't matter as much as the style of play, he must also smile more and say nicer things in press conferences, be less moody, SC doesn't like that. He's not the man to deliver trophies, but we don't want him out. But we want to win trophies...........

If he does go it mustn't be a certain manager, the next guy must deliver all of the above and deliver it immediately. By trophies we don't mean the League or FA Cups it must be the Champions League of the Premier League title. Oh and whoever comes in needs to submit all press utterings to SC for approval.

Fucking hell Levy, get your finger out, how hard can it be to deliver that you fucking slacker.

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Well done boys. Good process

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Well done boys. Good process

The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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the tired tread of sad biology

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