The beginning of the end...

Dougal said:

Depends entirely on the issues.

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Sorry but I don't agree. Nothing is worth more than three points on a match day and I do mean 'nothing'. As a team boss, any personal issues must be cast aside and shouldn't affect your judgement on team selection. The club and especially us fans deserve nothing less than to know the selected team is the best available on the day.

For me, the only exception should be if a player has effectively refused to play. Then he can go fuck himself.

.

Gb160 said:

Mate that sort of stuff, although quite rare, has been on the site since Poch took over.
If it wasn't for Vals comments, i'd be dismissing this thread as nonsense, but aren't you even slightly concerned? Or are you #CampDenial like ol' Dougle?

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I think its more than understandable that after half a decade, this group of people, from players to coaching staff, are starting to stagnate... whether that's their motivations changing, personal or professional, some people starting to not get on as well, or maybe even just boredom. People change, and some people just like a change.

The motivation levels on Sunday were minimal. I think that the CL final represented the end of something for a few players. And many are struggling to get themselves up for the new season.

Ferguson went through this every few years too. He had to rebuild his team on 4 or 5 occasions. We're about to have one of those seasons. This group has grown up and grown old (in footballing terms) Verts, Toby, Eriksen etc are old hands now. Poche said it was going to be painful, but we'll get through it.

Now is not the time to start hyper-ventilating and think about changing the whole thing again. Now is to band behind a man who is proven at building and rebuilding good, strong football teams, with increasing success in his iterations. I can't think of many better who can do that (without limitless spending.)

There are so many parts to this as i have mentioned earlier in the thread some of which can be taken in context and some which will be taken out of context. It seems extraordinary that all of a sudden we are talking in hushed tones that this could be the beginning of the end for Poch. However if you look at some more key facts it's easy to see why we are here.

Yes our form over the last 15 odd games in the league has been abysmal. And yes we are only 3 game into the season so perhaps we are jumping the gun. But if this was them lot down the road or Chelsea or Man U or Liverpool imagine what we would be saying and thinking. We would be saying they have serious ,serious problems that need addressed and we would be loving it. Lower level teams realize we are a big team and so sit back and play 5-5 formation against or even 6-4. We then play the diamond which simply never works for us and we and up looking short of ideas and turgid.

Ignoring all Pochs tetchy, vague and confused comments to the media the one issue that stood out to me was the CL final. I didn't say anything on the day or the weeks afterwards as I needed time away from what was a crushing loss. However we just did not turn up that day and it was beyond my comprehension that on the biggest days of these footballers lives they just did not look up for it or capable of winning. To excacerbate things Liverpool didn't really show up either and were there for the taking and that just took the piss. I could have understood if we gave it our all but came up a bit short but we just looked out of it. How that is possible is beyond me as we may never get back there again in my lifetime. That is not hyperbole but purely reality as its such a tough competition to win. Just ask Man City and they have enough money to air condition hell and still can't make it there.

The one issue that stood out like a sore thumb was Lucas not starting. I love HK as much as the next man but there is no way he should have started. If you looked at previous form when he was out earlier and Son was doing so well and then what happened when he came back it was clear it had a negative effect. I believe from what I know, Lucas to be very popular figure and I think that CL final decision has had some serious ramifications.

The other big issue is the new Stadium. Everyone talked as if it would be an immediate cure to all our ills but it simply does not work that way. It takes time to settle into a new venue and I think it will take a little while for us to feel at home. Imagine how we all feel when we move home. It takes a good while to recalibrate and get used to our surroundings. This may mean this season is tougher but that is to be expected and as long as the team is trying or at least looks like it then thats ok. What is not Ok is the lack of the press that got us to where we are today.

Finally on Poch it just goes to show that whatever walk of life you are in and whatever exalted position its still hard to be happy. Just imagine your or I being in Pochs position and behaving the way he is currently. It is insane to think that as a manger of Spurs with all of the amazing tools at his disposal that he could come across as so thoroughly jaded over the last 9 months. Yes its a big pressure position and I cant imagine how it takes its toll. However much as I hate to say it look at Klopps interview with SkySports a day or so ago. He said it's all or nothing for him as he cant do anything half hearted and so in 2022 he will in a ll likelihood take a break. No ambiguity or jibberish he was talking straight.

Now imagine he walked after winning the CL final it would have been unthinkable. Yes if we had won and Poch walked I would have thanked him and wished him well but no fucking way would I understand that decision.

Gassin's finest said:

I think its more than understandable that after half a decade, this group of people, from players to coaching staff, are starting to stagnate... whether that's their motivations changing, personal or professional, some people starting to not get on as well, or maybe even just boredom. People change, and some people just like a change.

The motivation levels on Sunday were minimal. I think that the CL final represented the end of something for a few players. And many are struggling to get themselves up for the new season.

Ferguson went through this every few years too. He had to rebuild his team on 4 or 5 occasions. We're about to have one of those seasons. This group has grown up and grown old (in footballing terms) Verts, Toby, Eriksen etc are old hands now. Poche said it was going to be painful, but we'll get through it.

Now is not the time to start hyper-ventilating and think about changing the whole thing again. Now is to band behind a man who is proven at building and rebuilding good, strong football teams, with increasing success in his iterations. I can't think of many better who can do that (without limitless spending.)

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I'm not a dramatic person but I will probably kill myself if Poch leaves.

Coco-1101 said:

Its not the word of gospel or is it? I think last season TWs proved that nothing has to be taken as it is stated.

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where have i said its gospel? im merely going off what one of our most respected ITK's info has been given, we are all speculating, isnt that what this forum is for? debating and having opinions? just because they aren't of the same opinion of yours, doesnt mean im taking vals post as gospel.

Gb160 said:

I'm not a dramatic person but I will probably kill myself if Poch leaves.

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#metoo

What gets me is that Poch is doing neither one thing nor the other. Some of those who have not committed to new contracts are in the starting 11 and some are on the bench. If there are players who are unsettling the squad, leave them out of the squad until they leave or get into line. Play Troy Parrot and Japhet Tanganga - could they be much worse than we saw Sunday?

I’m all for the changes he wants to make, with players growing older or not committed any more, but the things I can’t understand is the boring tactics. The insistence on certain players in certain positions. The general lack of any attacking ideas. The open gaps when teams attack us. We have the players, and he should have the nous, to be still knocking most other teams out the park. Yet we don’t, nowhere near. We’ve gone back to ‘its Spurs lads’ where anyone thinks they can stop us and beat us comfortably. First off, he needs to get back to what we had before, and play the right players in the right places.

tommyt said:

I'll admit I'm flabbergasted with your comments in this thread. Before this you always seemed so level headed and I respected that.

Having finally reached the end if this thread I have to say that your tone is somewhat accusatory and I'm confused about that. Its almost as if you are taking this personally, but more than that, like you're stoking the fire.

I'll apologise in advance if I have misinterpreted, but your usual approach to giving ITK, imo, is so much more pragmatic.

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I've always considered all our Itk guys to be fans first and foremost... I enjoy their contributions to discussions and debates more than only contributing with titbits of inside info.... Val's posts in this thread is refreshing as it comes across as rants of a normal poster like you and I.

tttcowan said:

Ferguson did this kind of thing all the time. I knew plenty of Man United fans back in the day who constantly moaned about team selection... But everyone seems to forget that.

My 2 cents is I think he's persisted with certain players because they're willing to try and change the way we play(Lamela) and perhaps others aren't willing to (Eriksen). And he's probably known for a while the team isn't right. Too many injuries and too many coming back out of form / going backwards.

Having said that, this entire thread is extremely reactionary. We don't know what's going on. Poch knows shit loads more about football than anybody on here though and of course he'll know there's a problem on the pitch.

We can speculate on the press side of things but I don't see why that's useful, perhaps he's been off in interviews because he thought this was probably coming. Or maybe it's because he's just had enough of press interviews all together which would be completely fair. It must be mind numbing. He didn't even want to speak English to the press so he's got previous with disdain for that part of the job... Harry Redknapp he is not. Point is nobody knows. So why is everyone reading into them so much.

What's worse is people are pointing at some of them, like when he said he'd leave if we won the CL for example. That's being taken completely out of context to fit a narrative. It was tabloids chatting nonsense at the time and he was clearly joking in the press interview if you actually watch it. But suddenly everyone's pointing to it like it's a reason why Poch's heads gone.

We need to believe he can turn it around, I fucking hate Liverpool but they're better at this than us, we could really use a bit of blind faith at times. As the alternatives don't bare thinking about.

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The comparisons with Ferguson are always at the back of my mind. The main argument against is Fergie won stuff. But then he didn’t have two challengers as tough as City and Liverpool to contend with. The dominance of the 80s came to an end for Liverpool, Leeds chipped in with an ageing team, Blackburn spent big but couldn’t maintain it against a United in full flight. Arsenal had the end of Graham and start of Wenger and briefly challenged here and there. Chelsea then won the lotto. But never really two teams ahead of them. Spurs best chance in recent years, while the others faltered, coincided with a Leicester freak. We are always chasing a dominant team. It’s why not having a strong start reached this level of frustration.

Primativ said:

As Poch himself says, football isn't played in the yesterday. it's the here and now. His past achievements of taking us from a 4th/5th/6th placed side to top 3 and numerous semi finals/ couple of finals is commendable, but it's hardly stunning is it? Noone has saying he has done a crap job, but neither is it mind blowing. Of all the managers to be in charge of the top 6 clubs since Poch has been in England, Emery and Gollum are the only ones who haven't won a trophy, both have only been here for one season and 9 months respectively. I have a sad feeling Poch's reign will be remembered for the near misses and that makes me sad.

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Well I can't disagree with you necessarily. You, and many others make valid arguments in your disappointment and I suppose that is one of the beauties of this game. We are all subjective observers, we form our own opinions and read 'facts' in different ways. I have respect for everyone (well most) on here whatever they may feel about this issue, but I do think that some of it is based more on snapshots than the bigger picture. My opinion on the top 6 is that in the time Poch has been here we started significantly behind the others in the races for trophies. So comparing those achievements is somewhat unfair. Consider where we came from it's remarkable that we are event consistently competitive to the extent that we are. Am I happy to remain trophy less under Poch, definitely bloody not. Were Utd supporters unhappy to be without trophies for the first five years under Fergie? I imagine so. I don't expect us to go on a run like the Utd of old but I think there are some lessons when looking at Fergie or other successful managers and the dips that their teams have taken, the progression that they needed time for, and the abilitt to overcome periods of adversity. I do feel that Poch has brought us a long way and I am personally hoping that he will take this regression, learn from it, revitalise his ideas and the team and come out stronger and a more capable manager. Will he? Can he? Dunno. But I hope so because I think he has changed the club for the better overall, and while I cling to that hope, I look at his history over 279 games so far, and that gives me comfort, as opposed to the last 18.

Just so I've gotten this right...

This thread was started because;

CE has not signed a new contract and might leave (something we've known for pretty much the last 6 months)
Toby ditto - but certainly he looks like he's staying
Poch seems pissed off with the time the window closes because he has, as a result, an unsettled squad until
Poch has said he's pissed off and the team isn't fully prepared mentally with player's futures a doubt until the window shuts (4 days time)
We haven't played great the last 6 month - but reached the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FINAL
Got beaten by Newcastle at home with 80% but looked, well, we looked kinda crap.



... it's probably not the end lads. It's been a bad week and the squad isn't 100% firmed up yet for the season.

The result on Sunday pissed me off too - it was bad - but games like that happen in football... ALL THE TIME.


Could I perhaps suggest, just waiting to see how things look in a weeks time when we know what our squad is going to be.

Dougal said:

The comparisons with Ferguson are always at the back of my mind. The main argument against is Fergie won stuff. But then he didn’t have two challengers as tough as City and Liverpool to contend with. The dominance of the 80s came to an end for Liverpool, Leeds chipped in with an ageing team, Blackburn spent big but couldn’t maintain it against a United in full flight. Arsenal had the end of Graham and start of Wenger and briefly challenged here and there. Chelsea then won the lotto. But never really two teams ahead of them. Spurs best chance in recent years, while the others faltered, coincided with a Leicester freak. We are always chasing a dominant team. It’s why not having a strong start reached this level of frustration.

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Lets be honest; That season, and probably the following one, was when we should have won the title.

Gassin's finest said:

Lets be honest; That season, and probably the following one, was when we should have won the title.

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Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. Leicester and Chelsea would only be saying the same thing if we had. There can only be one.

Spurslove said:

Sorry but I don't agree. Nothing is worth more than three points on a match day and I do mean 'nothing'. As a team boss, any personal issues must be cast aside and shouldn't affect your judgement on team selection. The club and especially us fans deserve nothing less than to know the selected team is the best available on the day.

For me, the only exception should be if a player has effectively refused to play. Then he can go fuck himself.

.

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Poch has to manage games, yes. But he also has to manage a squad and I can understand that on occasion, for whatever reason, he can’t pick his best team because he has to address a larger issue. Frustrating for all involved. Any player not playing always makes way for another player to take a chance anyway. He’s not putting out 9 or 10 man teams.

am_yisrael_chai said:

We still have the same team that struggled last year, we still have many of the same injuries. We made one major signing early and then 2 on deadline day. Is there any reason to expect the weaknesses we had from not spending for years to be fixed in the first 3 games when our only effective signing was injured ? It’s as if people look at the amount spent and think it instantly translates to a different team. Well if all 3 had a full pre-season and were fit maybe that would be a more reasonable expectation but even then it seems super harsh to go all negative on our best manager since Bill Nick after just 3 games. It’s like his ridiculous achievements in 5 years count for nothing.

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have you forgotten about Burkenshaw?

MindOverMatter said:

Anyone got any idea about what’s going on with Eriksen and Vertonghen??
I’m getting lost in the forums ?

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They are in here somewhere

Gassin's finest said:

Lets be honest; That season, and probably the following one, was when we should have won the title.

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That 2nd place to Chelsea where we were really scuppered by an indifferent start certainly feels like the one that got away.

What I find a bit disheartening is the very real possibility we have unearthed one of the best strikers in Europe and now England captain from our academy and could very well end up with zero trophies to show for it by the time his Spurs career is over. That would be a crying shame and a waste as players like that are once in a generation.

Sorry to have made the thread even more depressing.

Dougal said:

Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. Leicester and Chelsea would only be saying the same thing if we had. There can only be one.

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If we'd beaten Newcastle this thread would have reached 2 pages in length and mostly consist of people slagging it off. One game. Did most people think we were going to genuinely challenge for the title with City (let alone Liverpool) looking as strong as they do? And now the realisation that we're still too far away from winning the league has created a sort of depressive black hole, with everything, really quite suddenly becoming absolutely hopeless.