The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 30th June

WiganSpur said:

Lesson to be learned as ever with us is that you should never believe it until the signings are holding up the shirt. I did think there was a chance it would be different this time though with the new stadium along with Poch and Kane signing early. Window is of course not over yet but a mountain of work to do with just over a month to go. No players cleared out, only a couple of contracts done, and no new signings close yet. It's not looking fantastic at this stage but things can change quickly I suppose.

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stonebrow said:

No one is denying how difficult it is to sign players of the standard we require, what people are getting anxious about is the fact we’ve been led to believe we were signing these players & not just trying.

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arthurgrimsdell said:

Your first statement shows a lack of understanding of finance. We could not afford to buy and play the wages of, for example, Mbappe and Neymar, and if we tried we could quite easily get ourselves into the same mess as Leeds United did, which is why FFP rules are a factor. But it's always "Oh I don't mean that, just spend a whole lot more than we do now, because we can afford it." If we could afford it, we would spend it, though wisely, because Levy is nothing if not a very good businessman, and he will see the benefits far more than the average fan.
The club has indeed said that the cost of the stadium will not affect transfer business, but this is in the context of the transfer business the club has been transacting in the last 30 years or so. It is not in the context of what you would like to spend.
It is not painfully obvious to me that the club now needs to twist rather than stick, presumably meaning p*ss a load of money up the wall on big-name players, but if the club feels it can finance a world-class "finished article" player or two, so be it.
Over the last few years or so, the club has not been fighting for fourth, it has finished third, second and third in consecutive seasons, with a young and improving squad. If you fight for fourth you don't finish higher.
We have not yet sold Dembele or Toby.
I don't care who we compete with in the transfer market. All that matters is that the squad steadily improves and that it continues to be increasingly competitive.
The reason people think it's the same old same old, is because that's what it is. It is the strategy that has been in place for some years, and by dint of the club's massive improvement in all areas over the last decade, it has, to my mind succeeded brillantly, so far.
Pochettino is on record after signing his new deal, that we cannot compete with those clubs with massive amounts of funds, so we have to be, in his words, "creative", "crazy", and to "take risks". Those who want to spend loads of money conveniently ignore Pochettino's acceptance that we can't do that, and his intention to be "creative" instead, and concentrate on misinterpreting his "crazy" and "taking risks" to mean what they would prefer it to mean, spend a load of money, when it is far more likely to mean allowing some crowd favourites to leave, to finance younger replacements with more potential in his view.
Now if we were suddenly to get a massive equity investment to clear the debt financing we have in place, that could well be a game changer. I don't think a naming rights deal would be, though it would clearly make the debt clearance a lot easier over the next few years, or decade.
But until there is a game changer, the current strategy is likely to remain in place, which means plenty of jam today, and the hope of caviar tomorrow. And the "I want it now" brigade are likely to be disappointed. But when are they not?

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SpartanSpur said:

Wow. Hyperbole much?

Only one paragraph in but I'll get back to you.

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Japhet said:

Looks like Plea = Martial Light from Herc's ITK. If it means we keep Toby I'm OK with that.

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Japhet said:

Looks like Plea = Martial Light from Herc's ITK. If it means we keep Toby I'm OK with that.

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Indisguise said:

Moaning about moaners of which there are few. The irony.

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dondo said:

Moaning about moaning about moaning

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cider spurs said:

Tetchy in here this morning. So...we might sign Plea...we might not.

Seen three different teams other than us supposedly showing an interest.

Marquee...probably not. Might be able to come in and play a part if he can continue his latest Ligue 1 exploits in the Prem.

As the ITK has only stated 'interest'...as of yet, my bed stays dry.

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stonebrow said:

No one is denying how difficult it is to sign players of the standard we require, what people are getting anxious about is the fact we’ve been led to believe we were signing these players & not just trying.

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ohwhenthespurs said:

I pointed this out at the time - there's no way you can say with certainty that we will definitely sign x or definitely spend x until those things are concluded, signed and sealed. There are just far too many other factors that can come into play - injuries, agents, other clubs' interest, price changes, change of heart from players, change of heart from players' partners. I pointed out that it sounded like overpromising and getting carried away a tad from Hercules and I was practically burnt at the stake for being a non-believer. Weird shit.

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BringBack_leGin said:

And just as tedious ‘same old Levy’ and ‘(sarcastically) lessons learned’. Come on A&C be balanced.

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Archibald&Crooks said:

You were led to believe nothing. You take ITK with a pinch of salt, failure to do that is down to you. So stop complaining and start understanding the nature of it all because you're sitting right on the edge of losing your access and nobody wants to go down that route.

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Insomnia said:

For the record I read that in the voice of Gene Wilder when he played Willy Wonka, just saying

Thanks for the updates today @Hercules

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arthurgrimsdell said:

Your first statement shows a lack of understanding of finance. We could not afford to buy and play the wages of, for example, Mbappe and Neymar, and if we tried we could quite easily get ourselves into the same mess as Leeds United did, which is why FFP rules are a factor. But it's always "Oh I don't mean that, just spend a whole lot more than we do now, because we can afford it." If we could afford it, we would spend it, though wisely, because Levy is nothing if not a very good businessman, and he will see the benefits far more than the average fan.
The club has indeed said that the cost of the stadium will not affect transfer business, but this is in the context of the transfer business the club has been transacting in the last 30 years or so. It is not in the context of what you would like to spend.
It is not painfully obvious to me that the club now needs to twist rather than stick, presumably meaning p*ss a load of money up the wall on big-name players, but if the club feels it can finance a world-class "finished article" player or two, so be it.
Over the last few years or so, the club has not been fighting for fourth, it has finished third, second and third in consecutive seasons, with a young and improving squad. If you fight for fourth you don't finish higher.
We have not yet sold Dembele or Toby.
I don't care who we compete with in the transfer market. All that matters is that the squad steadily improves and that it continues to be increasingly competitive.
The reason people think it's the same old same old, is because that's what it is. It is the strategy that has been in place for some years, and by dint of the club's massive improvement in all areas over the last decade, it has, to my mind succeeded brillantly, so far.
Pochettino is on record after signing his new deal, that we cannot compete with those clubs with massive amounts of funds, so we have to be, in his words, "creative", "crazy", and to "take risks". Those who want to spend loads of money conveniently ignore Pochettino's acceptance that we can't do that, and his intention to be "creative" instead, and concentrate on misinterpreting his "crazy" and "taking risks" to mean what they would prefer it to mean, spend a load of money, when it is far more likely to mean allowing some crowd favourites to leave, to finance younger replacements with more potential in his view.
Now if we were suddenly to get a massive equity investment to clear the debt financing we have in place, that could well be a game changer. I don't think a naming rights deal would be, though it would clearly make the debt clearance a lot easier over the next few years, or decade.
But until there is a game changer, the current strategy is likely to remain in place, which means plenty of jam today, and the hope of caviar tomorrow. And the "I want it now" brigade are likely to be disappointed. But when are they not?

Click to expand...

arthurgrimsdell said:

Your first statement shows a lack of understanding of finance. We could not afford to buy and play the wages of, for example, Mbappe and Neymar, and if we tried we could quite easily get ourselves into the same mess as Leeds United did, which is why FFP rules are a factor. But it's always "Oh I don't mean that, just spend a whole lot more than we do now, because we can afford it." If we could afford it, we would spend it, though wisely, because Levy is nothing if not a very good businessman, and he will see the benefits far more than the average fan.
The club has indeed said that the cost of the stadium will not affect transfer business, but this is in the context of the transfer business the club has been transacting in the last 30 years or so. It is not in the context of what you would like to spend.
It is not painfully obvious to me that the club now needs to twist rather than stick, presumably meaning p*ss a load of money up the wall on big-name players, but if the club feels it can finance a world-class "finished article" player or two, so be it.
Over the last few years or so, the club has not been fighting for fourth, it has finished third, second and third in consecutive seasons, with a young and improving squad. If you fight for fourth you don't finish higher.
We have not yet sold Dembele or Toby.
I don't care who we compete with in the transfer market. All that matters is that the squad steadily improves and that it continues to be increasingly competitive.
The reason people think it's the same old same old, is because that's what it is. It is the strategy that has been in place for some years, and by dint of the club's massive improvement in all areas over the last decade, it has, to my mind succeeded brillantly, so far.
Pochettino is on record after signing his new deal, that we cannot compete with those clubs with massive amounts of funds, so we have to be, in his words, "creative", "crazy", and to "take risks". Those who want to spend loads of money conveniently ignore Pochettino's acceptance that we can't do that, and his intention to be "creative" instead, and concentrate on misinterpreting his "crazy" and "taking risks" to mean what they would prefer it to mean, spend a load of money, when it is far more likely to mean allowing some crowd favourites to leave, to finance younger replacements with more potential in his view.
Now if we were suddenly to get a massive equity investment to clear the debt financing we have in place, that could well be a game changer. I don't think a naming rights deal would be, though it would clearly make the debt clearance a lot easier over the next few years, or decade.
But until there is a game changer, the current strategy is likely to remain in place, which means plenty of jam today, and the hope of caviar tomorrow. And the "I want it now" brigade are likely to be disappointed. But when are they not?

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SpartanSpur said:

Mate we just doubled Harry Kane's £100k basic salary, and Poch's £4m a year pay. These are very competitive amounts that seemed impossible before. More big raises likely to follow too.

Spoiler: More stuff on financials

Our turnover for 2016/17 is within 80-85% of that of Liverpool and Chelsea, and that's before almost doubling our season ticket base and general attendance at Wembley, the new Nike deal and an extended CL run in 2017/18. Our 16/17 turnover was actually higher than Liverpool's in 2015/16, where they failed to 'do a Leeds' with a wage budget double ours.

It's not about what was acceptable or achievable before, it's about this window. ITK has said we are able to operate on a higher level going forward, similar to the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool. Unluckily for the club Utd are being difficult on Martial when we have seemingly won him over. The issue is if we have players of that quality and profile now willing to join, why are we seemingly reverting back to punts from Ligue 1 with 5 weeks to go? Will that stack up with the assurances given to Poch and our top players in terms of ambition? Fair and reasonable questions to be asked IMHO.

Spoiler: Optimism

For what it's worth I still believe we'll pull something very decent out of the bag this summer.

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Archibald&Crooks said:

That's weird because I typed it in the voice of Joe Pasquale

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