Where do we go now?

[dontcallme]

anyone blaming players are missing the forest for the trees. you can talk about effort or mentality but the basic fact is this is a club that demands to be judged like we're barcelona when we've won as many trophies under ENIC as birmingham. either we've got a ceiling due to financial constraints, in which case stop trying to ruin football by sucking up to the big boys whilst pretending we're one of them, or we're the king cheese, in which case fucking act like it. so, so sick of the cycle of excuses.

It's fine to blame the players for parts. Sanchez, Dier and Alli haven't progressed in the last 3 years. They have to take responsibility for themselves.

It doesn't mean there aren't other factors.

 

[N17NBL]

anyone blaming players are missing the forest for the trees. you can talk about effort or mentality but the basic fact is this is a club that demands to be judged like we're barcelona when we've won as many trophies under ENIC as birmingham. either we've got a ceiling due to financial constraints, in which case stop trying to ruin football by sucking up to the big boys whilst pretending we're one of them, or we're the king cheese, in which case fucking act like it. so, so sick of the cycle of excuses.

Fully agree-I was thinking just this!
We have a major identity crisis going on-I guess they see us as an elite club but we are not, at least not in the way we behave.
To be successful in this modern game you either need to a) throw loads of monies at it or b) develop an infrastructure on the playing side of things where you have a DOF, manager and players that all fit and are better than the some of their parts (I suppose like Leicester have done). We are not doing either-it’s like we are in no mans land

 

[coy-spurs1882]

Right now morale is low, and the players are also not fit enough. We need a good clear out. 7 or 8 to leave with only 3 or 4 coming in. We need a proper pre-season. We need fit and hungry players. We need the chairman to realise that to be competitive you have to have ambition and take a chance.

he won't, he is just interested in the valuation of the club

 

[spursfan77]

For the first time I am hanging all of this on Levy. Everything since 2018 has been a steady decline, with the outlier of the CL final aside.

Either poor or no signings, sacking rather than backing Poch, Jose, the Amazon piss take, the ESL...

He needs to step back from football, stop sticking his oar in, and let someone who actually knows what he's fucking doing take over. Until the football club is ran intelligently, this isn't going to improve.

As such we need a new "project" now. I'm leaning towards Potter, seeing as no one else will want to take over a team with no Europe, and he can at least start instilling a proper footballing culture into a new team. Because this one is finished.

We’ll get Europe. It will just be that god awful Conference League shite. We are nailed on for that. Pointless extra games that will disrupt our season.

 

[AnotherSpursFan]

For all our supposed talent up front we have no cohesion.

I was watching Dele press high with intensity and then Son and Kane were dropping off, then I saw son press on his own.

The key thing about all our attacking players is that they can't tackle so pressing is a little pointless unless they all do it together.

Today I saw hoijberg doing the job of two midfielders. If he has no one in front of him winning the ball back or even dropping in to add an extra man in midfield then he is on a hiding to nothing, if he sits and doesn't press the ball we are just going to be dominated, if he presses he leaves massive gaps.

But it all starts at the back, distribution from our players is appalling, with no one in midfield who can actually switch the play quickly.

This team is in rags, we saw a team today bereft of workrate, overpaid, over hyped individuals. I hate to use the word, but it's the only word for us at the moment - legends.

If I was lloris or Kane I'd be off.

This all comes from poor signings and the inability to sell players who are not good enough. Kane, lloris, son, PEH and Toby that is all. The rest are either not putting in the effort or are not good enough.

How Steve hitchen and our 'transfer committee' still have jobs is beyond me.

We have no style of play, this comes from poch, we stopped playing the press and played deeper and deeper. This is not his fault, but due to a lack of quality and effort from the players.

Jose tried to get us to play counter attacking football until the players gave up on him as well.

Yet levy still persists with 'the squad is good enough'.

Poch called for big changes he didn't get them, José said it was the players. And now suprise, suprise, mason is having problems.

Imagine bielsa with this group of players, he'd have killed them by now.

What is our style now? It's not pressing, it's not counter attack, it's not possession. It's just let's hope Harry or son can get a goal.

There is massive problems with this team. I didn't think poch was the problem, I didn't think José was the problem, IT'S THE FUCKING PLAYERS

Fully agree!

 

[Marty]

We’ll get Europe. It will just be that god awful Conference League shite. We are nailed on for that. Pointless extra games that will disrupt our season.

Play the development squad and use the first team if the development squad gets us through to the quarters. If not, no biggie.

 

[spursfan77]

Play the development squad and use the first team if the development squad gets us through to the quarters. If not, no biggie.

I agree, but I bet we won’t if we are in it.

 

[Marty]

I agree, but I bet we won’t if we are in it.

No we'll play the second string and treat it more or less like we treated the EL group stage this season. Not the worst thing in the world either as long as our best 11-14 players play as little as possible so they're fresh for the PL games, those behind need match practice too.

 

[elfy]

I think the thing me, I'm sympathetic to Levy to a large extent - we're never going to splash the cash like the likes of City or Chelsea etc do so we are always playing catch up.
I accept that. And, with Poch, I seem to remember ITK at the time basically saying it was Poch or players out. At the time, I hated Poch going but if that ITK was true, I understood it.
With hindsight, it's clear Poch was not the problem. I hate to paraphrase Jose, but 3 managers. Same players. Same results.
That's where the problem is to me, in the squad. No idea what it is, or why but there is something VERY wrong with this group of players.
I'm at the point now that I don't care who is sold, there is not a player that we must keep at all costs (and, yes, I include Harry). This squad needs gutting. Time and again we see a lack of intent, effort, intensity on the pitch and its got very easy to blame the manager and say 'he sent em out to play like that'. I dont buy it anymore.
It might be coaching, it might be tactical I don't have a clue.
One thing that stood out for me in the Amazon doc was how close Levy was to the players (or wanted to be). The players aren't afraid of him. They think he's got their back - and by sacking Poch and Jose he's shown he has. So, they are playing without fear making them (look at least) lazy and complacent.
The squad needs a massive overhaul, without doubt. Right now, and largely cos I'm pissed off, I'd move the lot of em out.
What I'd like to see I'd what we stopped doing, taking a chance on talent. Instead of trying to buy established talent for big bucks, go back to buying young, hungry talent with a high ceiling.

 

[Marty]

For all our supposed talent up front we have no cohesion.

I was watching Dele press high with intensity and then Son and Kane were dropping off, then I saw son press on his own.

The key thing about all our attacking players is that they can't tackle so pressing is a little pointless unless they all do it together.

Today I saw hoijberg doing the job of two midfielders. If he has no one in front of him winning the ball back or even dropping in to add an extra man in midfield then he is on a hiding to nothing, if he sits and doesn't press the ball we are just going to be dominated, if he presses he leaves massive gaps.

But it all starts at the back, distribution from our players is appalling, with no one in midfield who can actually switch the play quickly.

This team is in rags, we saw a team today bereft of workrate, overpaid, over hyped individuals. I hate to use the word, but it's the only word for us at the moment - legends.

If I was lloris or Kane I'd be off.

This all comes from poor signings and the inability to sell players who are not good enough. Kane, lloris, son, PEH and Toby that is all. The rest are either not putting in the effort or are not good enough.

How Steve hitchen and our 'transfer committee' still have jobs is beyond me.

We have no style of play, this comes from poch, we stopped playing the press and played deeper and deeper. This is not his fault, but due to a lack of quality and effort from the players.

Jose tried to get us to play counter attacking football until the players gave up on him as well.

Yet levy still persists with 'the squad is good enough'.

Poch called for big changes he didn't get them, José said it was the players. And now suprise, suprise, mason is having problems.

Imagine bielsa with this group of players, he'd have killed them by now.

What is our style now? It's not pressing, it's not counter attack, it's not possession. It's just let's hope Harry or son can get a goal.

There is massive problems with this team. I didn't think poch was the problem, I didn't think José was the problem, IT'S THE FUCKING PLAYERS

You make a lot of good points but I can't entirely agree that the players were all of the problem and that the managers didn't play a part.

You look at the game today, you make loads of good points about our play but these players have played a full 18 months under Jose and probably most of the last year under Poch without pressing. Mason clearly tried to get the players to press in Leeds' faces today but it becomes half-arsed, and thus far too easy to play through, because a coherent press is learned over a period of months, not just a week or two.

The players are also clearly not in a fit state to run around pressing for 90 minutes which immediately puts them at a disadvantage against a Leeds, a Liverpool or a Man City, to name the three most agressive pressers, and this harks back to the Man Utd squad when Mourinho was sacked there. The players and Solskjær have all said that they weren't in proper physical condition before the end of preseason, eight months after Solskjær had taken over. This is on Mourinho and his training methods, not the players.

But, as has been mentioned earlier, everything in the decline we've seen since the summer of 2018 falls on upper management and specifically Levy. Every time we've been on the up in the last 20 years he has tried to make a clever move and resulted in setting the club back two or three years. I fear these missteps of the last three years have set the club back another five, at least, and it will be more if the next appointment goes wrong.

 

[N17NBL]

I think the thing me, I'm sympathetic to Levy to a large extent - we're never going to splash the cash like the likes of City or Chelsea etc do so we are always playing catch up.
I accept that. And, with Poch, I seem to remember ITK at the time basically saying it was Poch or players out. At the time, I hated Poch going but if that ITK was true, I understood it.
With hindsight, it's clear Poch was not the problem. I hate to paraphrase Jose, but 3 managers. Same players. Same results.
That's where the problem is to me, in the squad. No idea what it is, or why but there is something VERY wrong with this group of players.
I'm at the point now that I don't care who is sold, there is not a player that we must keep at all costs (and, yes, I include Harry). This squad needs gutting. Time and again we see a lack of intent, effort, intensity on the pitch and its got very easy to blame the manager and say 'he sent em out to play like that'. I dont buy it anymore.
It might be coaching, it might be tactical I don't have a clue.
One thing that stood out for me in the Amazon doc was how close Levy was to the players (or wanted to be). The players aren't afraid of him. They think he's got their back - and by sacking Poch and Jose he's shown he has. So, they are playing without fear making them (look at least) lazy and complacent.
The squad needs a massive overhaul, without doubt. Right now, and largely cos I'm pissed off, I'd move the lot of em out.
What I'd like to see I'd what we stopped doing, taking a chance on talent. Instead of trying to buy established talent for big bucks, go back to buying young, hungry talent with a high ceiling.

Mostly agree with that, although I’d certainly keep the likes of Kane, Son, PEH and start from there.

 

[soflapaul]

Short term, we need a manager who can get the most out of the majority of players who have played at a much higher level in the past. It isn't clear which ones have anything left to give but change the mentality of five or six players and the team becomes significantly stronger. That manager also needs to create systems, not a single system, of play. And those systems must take advantage of their strengths but hides their weaknesses. Had this been done all season, we'd be sitting at least 8-10 points higher. No one trick ponies.

Second, we need a midfield with more gravitas. Individually, they are all good, but there is something missing which might include a box to box type player as well as a demanding leader (not necessarily the same person). I haven't seen any statistics but would think that we have lost more balls in transition out of the back then i can remember in a long long time. THinking back to the days of Dembele and how much easier transitions out of the back were. Even though he was crocked at the end, when he was there, his play protected our defense by holding the ball so effectively rather than having it jammed back down our throat.

Third, we need a commanding CB. Nothing needs more to be said about that.

And finally, our attacking players movement off the ball has to be far sharper than it is. Leeds was a delight to watch with their meandering, marauding runs almost all with a purpose. The more decisions defenders have to make on who to cover, who to transfer coverage to, the more mistakes will be made. Sitting in channels is a purposeful strategy that does have value but it can't be the primary way you try to win with the intensity of EPL combined with the current quality of touch from our team.

And lastly, and long term most importantly, we need that DOF who's skillset marries up to the club's DNA. Levy needs to stay on the business side but we need a football man to lead the football side.

I can see why some one would better defenders on the wings but it also seems that their weaknesses are much more exploitable with the current set up then if the above were done.

 

[agrdavidsfan]

The only way we can go is to push reset what I would like to see is

Out
Sissoko
Winks
Aurier
Doherty
Pamela
Moura
Sanchez


Not bothered on what they do :
Alli
Davies
Hojbjerg
Hart


Another season
Bale
Lo Celso
N’dombele
Bergwijn

Another year if they wish
Kane
Hugo

In
Potter & Ragnick (dof) or even Ragnick & Mason (no.2)
Skipp
Reuben Neves
Lamptey or Aarons
KWP (if we have an option).
Top quality centre back
Mellier (Leeds keeper)
Plus another if Hugo goes
Chukwese (Villareal)
Sabitzer
Ings or Toney

realistically that’s all we can afford, unless we sacrifice Kane

 

[sidford]

I started this thread after the pathetic performance in the final where only Hugo and Toby came out with credit.
I was genuinely surprised that so many people agreed with me, I was sick of them at the time and obviously alot of other people were.
The next league game tricked me into thinking that maybe i was harsh on the players and that getting rid of Jose would mean that the players would be mentally strong & motivated enough to want to prove Jose was wrong about them.

Today just reconfirmed that this bunch is flawed, they are mentally weak, are nowhere near as good as they think they are (Imo only Kane and Son would play for a club bigger than spurs) and they need to be moved out of the club as soon as possible.

Sad reality is that most will still be here next season as so few players will be sold this summer by any club and levy won't do what Woolwich did and release players for the better of the club. We will be stuck with this bunch again and regardless of what structure or manager is brought they will always let us down.

And all of above is before we talk about the shit show of a structure we have in place. Bad times.

 

[Who’s our next manager?]

Persuade Lloris to stay one more year and pre sign Onana, who will join in January.
Get rid os Aurier and Doherty then buy Aarons,with Tanganga and Tavernier as right back choices.
Keep Reguillon and bring back Sessegnon. With these we should play wingbacks more often.
Sell Sanchez and Dier but keep Toby for another year. Buy a really top centreback and either Vestergaard or even Ramos on a free. Rodon given more chances and Tanganga.
Hojbjerg stays but his limitations have to be taken into account.Bring back Skipp. Buy one really good box to box player . Kessie would be brilliant.Kessie, Hojbjerg, Skipp and Ndombele would be a great group here.
Keep Son and Bergwijn but give the boy some pitch time. Keep One of Dele or Lo Celso, sell the other and bring in someone like Sabitzer. Sell Moura,Lamela and buy a damn good winger.
Keep Kane if possible and buy Ivan Toney.
If Kane insists on going just tell him no, he’s got three years left.If he pushes hard enough to cause disruption sell him and buy the best possible striker available, would have plenty of money from his sale to do this.
Finally start bringing youngsters like Cirkin, Parrott, White and Scarlett into the reckoning. Jesus, other top clubs are using their young guns more than us.

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

You make a lot of good points but I can't entirely agree that the players were all of the problem and that the managers didn't play a part.

You look at the game today, you make loads of good points about our play but these players have played a full 18 months under Jose and probably most of the last year under Poch without pressing. Mason clearly tried to get the players to press in Leeds' faces today but it becomes half-arsed, and thus far too easy to play through, because a coherent press is learned over a period of months, not just a week or two.

The players are also clearly not in a fit state to run around pressing for 90 minutes which immediately puts them at a disadvantage against a Leeds, a Liverpool or a Man City, to name the three most agressive pressers, and this harks back to the Man Utd squad when Mourinho was sacked there. The players and Solskjær have all said that they weren't in proper physical condition before the end of preseason, eight months after Solskjær had taken over. This is on Mourinho and his training methods, not the players.

But, as has been mentioned earlier, everything in the decline we've seen since the summer of 2018 falls on upper management and specifically Levy. Every time we've been on the up in the last 20 years he has tried to make a clever move and resulted in setting the club back two or three years. I fear these missteps of the last three years have set the club back another five, at least, and it will be more if the next appointment goes wrong.

I'm not sure if the players are fully fit or not, but then again I am not expecting poch, bielsa or klopp levels of running, I believe in the long run this is not a sustainable method.

What I do expect is that when we do press we press together. If you see Dele do it then son, bale and Kane follow suit or it is pointless. Again if we drop deep, we do it as a team. This is where a leader on the pitch is needed to direct the players.

How many times did we hear José shout press and the players didn't do it.

There is also composure on the ball under pressure which should be a quality that our players have but when I see reguillon, dier and aurier (amongst others) under pressure, they panic.

Also the quality and speed of passing is not good enough, this again shouts of poor technical ability, rather than bad management imo.

You could argue managers like bielsa train this way and that would be true but I don't think some of the players have the desire to learn. Or you could argue that bielsa signs these types of players.

Passing and moving, making yourself available for a pass, another prerequisite for a top side in the modern game. Again if the players haven't learned this by now then they shouldn't be at a top side.

Both under poch and José the players have lacked these abilities consistently and although the manager may play a part in this you still need a level of quality out there to do it.

What worries me, is at times we can do the above, both under poch and José but not consistently. My worry is simple desire.

I don't think our players like playing without the ball or are very good at it.

You don't need to run around like headless chickens all game to do this, it's footballing intelligence.

What annoys me is we do/did have players who possess these abilities - sessegnon, Skipp, kwp and foyth have these abilities but they are young.

Jose had his faults, poch had his faults but imo as a squad our players lack the basic desire to work hard and learn.

And I agree totally that our transfer policy has been woeful.

When we had peak rose, walker, verts, dembele, wanyama and eriksen we had these qualities in abundance, but none of our starters (in those positions) are as good as these players imo.

Compare that list to reguillon, aurier, dier, ndombele, PEH and Lucas (for example) and there is no contest.

 

[jolsnogross]

The most likely way forward is an extended period back in mediocrity. We've dropped the ball so badly now, and other clubs have their acts together, that we've really created a mountain for ourselves.

It's easy to be deluded and think a new manager can come in and really get us back behaving like a top 4 club, but there's about a 5% chance of that happening. We are back to where we were in the pre-Jol time - swinging wildly around in a largely rudderless fashion, overestimating our players, and completely unable to string 5 results together. Manager merry go round is far more likely now than any extended period of even 3 seasons with the same guy.

I'm hoping to step back a bit from it all, which I managed to do for a few months of mourinho's time with us. But it's not easy to grow out of this shit either.

 

[Matthew]

I have absolutely no confidence that we’ll have the player turnover this summer that’s necessary.

we absolutely and unequivocally won’t! A few of our itks have told us there’s no money, levy will haggle for every penny on outgoings and we will be left with the same shite squad come first game of next season as we have today, and then some other poor sod will last a year to 18 months, and they’ll be given the boot! They’re all clowns!

o just have such a massive disconnect with the club at the moment, and it upsets me! As gay as that sounds, but I don’t even get excited when we play anymore, cos we almost know the result before a ball is kicked!
The club is absolutely rotten to the core from top to bottom! ?

 

[HildoSpur]

This feels like the lowest point in a few years of low points

 

[yankspurs]

This feels like the lowest point in a few years of low points

And it’ll get lower before it gets better. We’ve had quite a few moments the last 2 years where we think we’ve hit rock bottom only to find that we go lower.