The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

[allpaths]

So every single pro manager Onomah has played under hasn’t wanted to play him CM. Bar the U20 World Cup where he had a physical advantage. Does that not tell it isn’t his best position. Unless 3 or 4 pro managers are wrong and everyone on here is right.

if they dont rate him as a cm i dont know how they rate him on the wing. Onomah hasnt done himself any favours with his performances, but he's also been brought to clubs that play shit football with managers that dont rate him in his preferred position, which would negatively effect 90% of young players confidence and ability to perform.

He needs to go to Europe, either Germany or Holland where they'd play to his strengths and play him in central midfield.

 

[alexis]

if they dont rate him as a cm i dont know how they rate him on the wing. Onomah hasnt done himself any favours with his performances, but he's also been brought to clubs that play shit football with managers that dont rate him in his preferred position, which would negatively effect 90% of young players confidence and ability to perform.

He needs to go to Europe, either Germany or Holland where they'd play to his strengths and play him in central midfield.

Is this not the new knee jerk. The thought automatically that based on recent happenings a move to these two is something that can’t be got in the uk. Don’t know enough if this is right or not but can’t see all teams in these leagues being unquestionably the better option.

 

[coys200]

if they dont rate him as a cm i dont know how they rate him on the wing. Onomah hasnt done himself any favours with his performances, but he's also been brought to clubs that play shit football with managers that dont rate him in his preferred position, which would negatively effect 90% of young players confidence and ability to perform.

He needs to go to Europe, either Germany or Holland where they'd play to his strengths and play him in central midfield.

Or maybe he just isn’t good enough. Players like Maddison Grealish Brooks Wilson Mount all excelling in the championship and he just hasn’t over nearly a season and a half now. Sorry but if a player has any chance of making it in the PL they should be excelling in the Championship. ( And don’t throw Kane at me he was an exception).

 

[kremlyn]

Tbf most of those are really forwards or AMs. Josh is a CM which is more about temperament than technique. It looks like Josh is our Pogba; physically and technically gifted wiyh plenty of intelligence but needs to learn restraint. Hes the opposite of Winks who naturally plays within himself and is learning when he can take more risks. Josh simply needs to learn when to take less risks. Hes technically already the best cm at the club...

 

[therhinospeaks]

Hes technically already the best cm at the club...

Sorry what?????

 

[Spurzinho]

onomah's loan started reasonably well but then he had a bit of a mare in one game and has hardly been seen since, their manager may not last too much longer so josh might get more of a chance if a new man comes in. it's not looking great for him at the moment though and two unsuccessful championship loans isn't a great look for him, it's still one fewer than rose had so i wouldn't totally write him off but he needs something to go his way and soon. edwards was doing fine, he started the first 8 or 9 games but so far hasn't managed to deliver in the final third and was subsequently an unused sub in the past two games(and missed the most recent through illness). again it doesn't look great that he's lost his place for a mid-lower eredivisie side but whilst it might be misguided on my part i do still think he can come good. players like zaha, mahrez, salah etc all took a while to put everything together and i'm hoping this will be the case with marcus. i think giving up on any 19/20 year old who has the unique ability to beat players and draw fouls at an absurd rate would be a foolish one, of course some players just never get it but i think we've seen enough from him to persevere with for a little longer yet. i imagine we'll revisit both loans in january and make a decision on them, i think marcus will see out the full duration of his loan but as it stands I think we might find somewhere else for onomah.

I've always been willing to be patient with Marcus, what has frustrated me is those who got caught up in the hype. His progress has been very slow and some people don't want to see that. A nervousness that he might run out of patience and skip out on us, robbing us of his potential, is blinding people to his obvious unreadiness for the first team.

 

[coys200]

But Edwards and Onomah aren’t kids anymore Edwards is 20 and Onomah coming up to 21. I’d expect a decision to be made on both this summer and unless either have a miraculous 2nd half to season I’d expect both to be leaving. It’s pretty clear Skipp is a much more pochettino type player than Onomah. And that puts him further down the pecking order and that’s not taking into account sissoko and the fact we will almost certainly buy a CM. So Onomah is behind winks new CM sissoko Skipp. And it’s probably worse for Edwards with lamela and moura coming good.

 

[kremlyn]

Hes technically already the best cm at the club...

Sorry what?????

What's he up against? Dier? Wanyama? Dembele is magic but I'm of the opnion hes on the wane. That leaves Winks and I think Josh is more technically equipped than him. Just my opinion. Not sure it's worth the ratings drama, ladies.

 

[kremlyn]

But Edwards and Onomah aren’t kids anymore Edwards is 20 and Onomah coming up to 21. I’d expect a decision to be made on both this summer and unless either have a miraculous 2nd half to season I’d expect both to be leaving. It’s pretty clear Skipp is a much more pochettino type player than Onomah. And that puts him further down the pecking order and that’s not taking into account sissoko and the fact we will almost certainly buy a CM. So Onomah is behind winks new CM sissoko Skipp. And it’s probably worse for Edwards with lamela and moura coming good.

And yet both players are simply an epiphany away from turning the corner and coming good. It's not a question of ability with either. They've got to realise, for themselves, their priorities on the pitch need to change.

The big question is whether a. sending them on a loan to see for themselves that not turning the corner is not acceptable at any level or b. Coaching them in house to accept and appreciate greater responsibility in their game, are right.

I've had some experience in coaching in the real world but I don't believe in it's total efficacy. The loan system would be preferable because it is efficient but I wonder if we aren't missing a trick by not coavhing while they are on loan. Helping them to reflect after each week.

Both are great talents, itd be a shsme to lose either when they're so close.

 

[coys200]

What's he up against? Dier? Wanyama? Dembele is magic but I'm of the opnion hes on the wane. That leaves Winks and I think Josh is more technically equipped than him. Just my opinion. Not sure it's worth the ratings drama, ladies.

Sorry but winks is possibly the best technical player at the club alongside eriksen.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

Tbf most of those are really forwards or AMs. Josh is a CM which is more about temperament than technique. It looks like Josh is our Pogba; physically and technically gifted wiyh plenty of intelligence but needs to learn restraint. Hes the opposite of Winks who naturally plays within himself and is learning when he can take more risks. Josh simply needs to learn when to take less risks. Hes technically already the best cm at the club...

I would like like to hear your perspective on the word 'technically'

If he was technically the best cm at the club he would be in the team or close to it. I had high hopes for onomah but he's never shown anything in a spurs shirt to suggest he deserves selection. Winks has excelled in big games against real Madrid and barcelona, yet onomah was on the bench for his championship loan club. Its all well saying he's technically the best at the club, but until he shows that on the pitch for his loan team or for us, it's redundant. Show and prove, of which he hasn't showed or proven anything like being technically the best cm Of a club that has finished 323 in the prem last 3 seasons.

 

[kremlyn]

I would like like to hear your perspective on the word 'technically'

If he was technically the best cm at the club he would be in the team or close to it. I had high hopes for onomah but he's never shown anything in a spurs shirt to suggest he deserves selection. Winks has excelled in big games against real Madrid and barcelona, yet onomah was on the bench for his championship loan club. Its all well saying he's technically the best at the club, but until he shows that on the pitch for his loan team or for us, it's redundant. Show and prove, of which he hasn't showed or proven anything like being technically the best cm Of a club that has finished 323 in the prem last 3 seasons.

Happily.

I think hes armed with the best technique; so thats everything from passing range, 1st touch, 'madskillz'. What he needs to manipulate the ball. He's also quicker and stronger than Winks.

Harry, who is also, but not as technically blessed, is far more positionally aware and responsible. Those are not technical qualities but tactical and strategic.

Few, especially the longstanding youth watchers, would deny Josh's astonishing technical ability.

 

[kremlyn]

Sorry but winks is possibly the best technical player at the club alongside eriksen.

Don't be sorry. I disagree. Harry Kane is better technically than Winks for a start.

Winks has great technique but its his responsibilty to the team that has seen him thrive whereas the Josh, who has even better technique, has not.

 

[kremlyn]

I would like like to hear your perspective on the word 'technically'

If he was technically the best cm at the club he would be in the team or close to it. I had high hopes for onomah but he's never shown anything in a spurs shirt to suggest he deserves selection. Winks has excelled in big games against real Madrid and barcelona, yet onomah was on the bench for his championship loan club. Its all well saying he's technically the best at the club, but until he shows that on the pitch for his loan team or for us, it's redundant. Show and prove, of which he hasn't showed or proven anything like being technically the best cm Of a club that has finished 323 in the prem last 3 seasons.

You think I mean technically as in 'probably '! I get it now.

No. Just that hes the better technician.

 

[therhinospeaks]

Happily.

I think hes armed with the best technique; so thats everything from passing range, 1st touch, 'madskillz'. What he needs to manipulate the ball. He's also quicker and stronger than Winks.

Harry, who is also, but not as technically blessed, is far more positionally aware and responsible. Those are not technical qualities but tactical and strategic.

Few, especially the longstanding youth watchers, would deny Josh's astonishing technical ability.

I've watched him numerous times since he was 15. His passing has never been particularly brilliant. His powers used to lie in his ability to pick up the ball deep and drive forward and off load. He's never been a goal threat and whilst his first touch is ok I wouldn't say he has madskillz as you put it.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

You think I mean technically as in 'probably '! I get it now.

No. Just that hes the better technician.

Lol nah I didn't mean probably...

I class technically as similar to your use of the word manipulation of a ball, but I also class position and tactical awareness in the same bag. The other side I class as physical speed, strength, stamina etc.

Ive never seen onomah demonstrate in mens football either in abundance. I think in youth football his early physical development gave him a physical advantage and he stood out. I've seen nice touches from him in youth football too, but in men's football I've seen nothing. I agree he got bits but not consistently. I saw some bits for villa a flash here or there. I think winks receives a ball nicer, in various manners and receives and turns very well, I think his low centre of gravity and mobility help this. His third field diagonals into the box are also very very nice technically. His dribbling is close, varied and pacy, and his ability to first time pass without control is excellent, his weight of pass is also lovely,both on the deck and in Crossfield pings. Winks' positioning and movement toward the ball but also into space is also better. Overall maybe onomah could beat winks technically in a skills level is possibly true, but that's the difference between a skills performer and a footballer, if they can't produce it on the pitch. This excuse of him not playing in his preferred position is nonsense. Winks has played bottom of a diamond, sole midfielder in a 4141,right of a 3, left of a 3, holding, advancing. I believe winks demonstrates his technical ability and onomah does not. He may well be technically better, but I haven't seen it. He has to demonstrate it on the pitch. Winks demonstrates and this is why I believe winks to be technically the better midfielder and baller.

 

[IGSpur]

I've watched him numerous times since he was 15. His passing has never been particularly brilliant. His powers used to lie in his ability to pick up the ball deep and drive forward and off load. He's never been a goal threat and whilst his first touch is ok I wouldn't say he has madskillz as you put it.

Quite surprised by this. His abiltiy to thread a ball and create chance has always been better than Winks for comparison. Unless you're thinking of passing in terms of spraying the ball about then I would agree he's not that great at that but he's average. He also has shown more than enough flair for a CM, I've seen skills from him, again for comparison as that is the the point @kremlyn, more than I've ever seen WInks. People are rewriting thinks in their mind due to what they're seeing now. There isn't one youth watcher I've ever spoken to that would have said that Winks is technically better than Onomah or a better player in general pre 20. This is coming from a guy that has been advocating that Winks should have been in the first team squad when he was 19 as he was clearly talented. I don't remember people claiming Winks was a better technician when Onomah was playing against Monaco as a skinny 18 year old. Winks' game hasn't actually changed both technically and in style. So I don't know why people are changing their tune on a very fair point. It's also why I'm surprised when people say that Winks needs to start creating more chances or believe he has the ability to. He never really did that for the academy, so expecting him to do something in the PL that he wasn't doing against u18s is a bit of a stretch, though it would be great to see, and I'm sure coaching can help with that.

While I made the same judgement did when kremlyn made his point, his explanation has been fair. Onomah has always been better at carrying the ball, especially with his head up, taking the ball on the half term into space and quick, slick one touch passing around the box, and ability to thread a pass. For balance, the more technical side of the game I feel Winks was stronger, was turning out of trouble due to his lower centre of gravity however both of their long passing is quite standard though Winks has improved recently and he holds onto the ball less and looks to keep it moving, however he is more than good enough to a carry it. There is a reason why Onomah has been a consistent member of England's most successful age group ever, while Winks rarely featured for his. However, Winks has always excelled more than Onomah, in his workrate, tenacity, consistency and reliability that's no bad thing at all and are all excellent qualities and are essentially the reason Winks is playing first team and not Onomah. It's also the reason why Skipp will likely play first team, and why we struggle to bring through players no matter how talented if they don't possess those traits. Yet not every player that has ever come through for their club, possess those qualities. This is where I think the PL has a problem, and managers aren't really managing academy players. They're taking the easiest to work with, and even then, still not getting chances, so what chance does anyone else have. Rather than working with players with different mental skills and traits and trying to coach and bring them through they instead take the easy option and talent falls by the wayside. It's hardly great management if you can only bring through one type of player ever. It's not like the first team are full of players with all the similar level of the traits above, it seems it's only really the academy players. Someone like Alli was massively criticised for his lack of reliability, i.e giving the ball away and consistency but he has come on leaps and bounds in that area. He was fortunate enough though to come through a club where they couldn't afford to ignore his talent and accepted the rough with the smooth. 'Fortunately' as a well-off club we don't have to do that and can buy those ready made, but it just means not a lot of coaching or development is done and talent is lost. Again that's a PL thing.

Re: Onomah he has maybe had his confidence and ability stifled due to a lack of progression, but he hasn't completely lost it as demonstrated when he plays for England with other talented players, but due to the qualities he lacks, he struggles in the Championship and will be made the scapegoat too. This isn't a surprise to those who said for ages they do not believe Onomah would work well on a loan, but ended up accepting it as he needed some football at some point in his life, however noone had a problem with Winks going on a potential loan as his style would fit anywhere. Hard worker, safe and reliable . Onomah won't come through here, but he definitely would be looking a lot better at another club. Again to return to the point above, while Edwards hasn't been putting away his chances he did look really good. The fact that he wasn't playing in the Championship due to an 'attitude problem' but was then being played in Excelsior is a perfect example of how different coaches/managers interpret and manage players with different behaviours, or don't have the option to not go with someone so give them a chance. Onomah would definitely be at a completely different stage in his career if he was in a different country.

 

[Blake Griffin]

i always refer back to this when people wheel out the old if you can't cut it in the championship then you'll never make it in the pl line. no it doesn't mean that onomah(or whoever) will therefore go the same way as those mentioned in the video above but it does show that football is hardly a perfect science.

 

[kremlyn]

That's a wonderfully reasoned post.

I'm not sure about the idea that Josh would have been better off if he'd been schooled abroad. It's possible but it seems unlikely. Even a fairly average Jupiler team is struggling to make a case to include Edwards for much the same reason; if they can't work to support the team objectives then however good their tekkers, driving runs, one-twos are, they can't be trusted in the league.

This is why I ask "how continuous is their coaching, from their parent club, while on loan?".

To me the solution could be simply maths: every nice turn, clever pass, subtle dribble has a 1:20 chance of leading to a goal in the PL (I think that's got to be a massive underestimate). On the other hand, every misplaced pass or poor touch that leads to a turnover in your own half, and every time you get drawn out of position and then lose posession leads to a 1:5 chance of losing a goal.

They could be triggered by understanding that every time they don't play the simple, obvious pass their team-mates resolve to cut them out, or whisper to the manager.

The idea of coaching them from afar is not to help them become a better technician but to help them become a better player and help them make better decisions. The idea that Josh might still be asking himself "What have I got to do to get a game in CM?" haunts me a little. I hope they are both being supported because, and I think we all agree on this, if Josh and Marcus could just "get it", they could both be phenomenal players.

 

[edson]

Only a few minutes but Skipp done well when he came on.