The Rugby Thread

[Arnoldtoo]

You can't even say, with any real basis in fact, that he's the best hooker in the NH let alone comfortably the best.

You can start saying that when he outperforms his peers in the 6N until then you're just going on club form which, as much as you rate the standard of the prem, is inferior to international rugby.

Owens has been in great form for the Scarlets (winning the pro 12) but, more importantly, was probably the best hooker in the 6N so saying George is comfortably the best is a bit silly considering he hasn't played at that level.

He's clearly a good player but you can't just go on Sarecens form, if I only looked at regional form for Celtic players I'm sure you'd pull me up on it as the best measure is international rugby as it's the highest standard we have is the 6N

I'm sure he'll start over Hartley in the 2018 6N so we'll see if he's comfortably better then.

Why do you think Gatland preferred him to Owens and Best?

 

[talkshowhost86]

You can't even say, with any real basis in fact, that he's the best hooker in the NH let alone comfortably the best.

You can start saying that when he outperforms his peers in the 6N until then you're just going on club form which, as much as you rate the standard of the prem, is inferior to international rugby.

Owens has been in great form for the Scarlets (winning the pro 12) but, more importantly, was probably the best hooker in the 6N so saying George is comfortably the best is a bit silly considering he hasn't played at that level.

He's clearly a good player but you can't just go on Sarecens form, if I only looked at regional form for Celtic players I'm sure you'd pull me up on it as the best measure is international rugby as it's the highest standard we have is the 6N

I'm sure he'll start over Hartley in the 2018 6N so we'll see if he's comfortably better then.

You are sort of ignoring the fact that George played about 30 minutes in every six nations game this year (and been very good in all of them apart from the Ireland game). Taking that into account, and the fact that he plays at a higher club level than most other hookers in the NH (considering both the strength of the Premiership and the fact that Sarries have won the European Championship for the last two years) I'm more than happy saying he's comfortably the best.

Owens is a very good hooker, don't get me wrong (although he's bloody lucky that he didn't cost the Lions the series in that cameo!) but as I think I said way back towards the start of this thread, I just don't think he has all the attributes that George does, and that's with an extra four years of experience.

Hopefully they'll both get a chance to try and prove each of us wrong in the 6Ns next year though.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Talking of the next 6Ns, have Jones and Gats ever gone up against each other?

Feels like sparks might fly in that one.

 

[E17yid]

Why do you think Gatland preferred him to Owens and Best?

How do you know he did? There's a selection process and I'm sure there were healthy debates in most positions.

But, for arguments sake, we'll say Gatland himself wanted George to play then it's personal option I guess, just as he and some other coaches thought AWJ deserved to start or SW or whoever.

Why do you think Jones picks Hartley over George?

 

[E17yid]

You are sort of ignoring the fact that George played about 30 minutes in every six nations game this year (and been very good in all of them apart from the Ireland game). Taking that into account, and the fact that he plays at a higher club level than most other hookers in the NH (considering both the strength of the Premiership and the fact that Sarries have won the European Championship for the last two years) I'm more than happy saying he's comfortably the best.

Owens is a very good hooker, don't get me wrong (although he's bloody lucky that he didn't cost the Lions the series in that cameo!) but as I think I said way back towards the start of this thread, I just don't think he has all the attributes that George does, and that's with an extra four years of experience.

Hopefully they'll both get a chance to try and prove each of us wrong in the 6Ns next year though.

And you're conveniently ignoring the fact that whatever competition Sarecens play in is not as high a standard as international rugby. It's not football whereby clubs are better than international sides.

30mins a game, come on mate. He's not starting for you. What you just described doesn't really equate to comfortably better, that, to me, implies 1 player is in another league but you admit that Owens is a very good hooker and accept George isn't in Coles league so where does that leave the 2. Id say both good players who are in the same league get one is playing a starting matches at a higher standard.

Like I say, come back when he's starting and making mincemeat out of Owens.

 

[talkshowhost86]

How do you know he did? There's a selection process and I'm sure there were healthy debates in most positions.

But, for arguments sake, we'll say Gatland himself wanted George to play then it's personal option I guess, just as he and some other coaches thought AWJ deserved to start or SW or whoever.

Why do you think Jones picks Hartley over George?

For me it's because Hartley is Jones' captain, and he made that decision back when George was just starting to really hit his form (November 2015). Since then, George has developed into a better hooker than Hartley, but Jones doesn't want to drop his captain as that's undermining the first big decision he made as coach.

But he's steadily making that change, with George coming on earlier and earlier, and as you said I suspect we'll see George as starting hooker by next season, with Farrell as captain.

 

[E17yid]

Talking of the next 6Ns, have Jones and Gats ever gone up against each other?

Feels like sparks might fly in that one.

Yes and I'm sure they will seeing as Jones is the biggest troll in the game.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

How do you know he did? There's a selection process and I'm sure there were healthy debates in most positions.

But, for arguments sake, we'll say Gatland himself wanted George to play then it's personal option I guess, just as he and some other coaches thought AWJ deserved to start or SW or whoever.

Why do you think Jones picks Hartley over George?

Jones likes Hartley's leadership qualities. (He wouldn't be my choice.)

I suspect Gatland's discussions would be similar to Brian Clough's - in the end the consensus would be that he was right!

 

[talkshowhost86]

And you're conveniently ignoring the fact that whatever competition Sarecens play in is not as high a standard as international rugby. It's not football whereby clubs are better than international sides.

30mins a game, come on mate. He's not starting for you. What you just described doesn't really equate to comfortably better, that, to me, implies 1 player is in another league but you admit that Owens is a very good hooker and accept George isn't in Coles league so where does that leave the 2. Id say both good players who are in the same league get one is playing a starting matches at a higher standard.

Like I say, come back when he's starting and making mincemeat out of Owens.

If you simply want to base it on international minutes then fine, but I'm not quite sure on that basis how anyone would ever break into your international teams.

I'm happy to base it on actually watching the players and that's why for me George is comfortably better than Owens (and all of the other NH hookers incidentally, but yet again you seem to have taken it as a personal sleight against Wales).

 

[talkshowhost86]

Yes and I'm sure they will seeing as Jones is the biggest troll in the game.

Oh dear. It seems E17yid has gone into his 'everyone linked with English rugby is effectively Margaret Thatcher' mode.

*takes cover*

 

[Arnoldtoo]

surely, the irish hooker is best

 

[E17yid]

If you simply want to base it on international minutes then fine, but I'm not quite sure on that basis how anyone would ever break into your international teams.

I'm happy to base it on actually watching the players and that's why for me George is comfortably better than Owens (and all of the other NH hookers incidentally, but yet again you seem to have taken it as a personal sleight against Wales).

I'm not taking any personal sleight against Wales. I take issue with your use of the word comfortably. If you just said they're 2 good hookers who are a league below the best hooker in the world but George edges it fit me for X Y and Z I'd have no problem, I'd disagree but I'd understand.

The reason why I'm looking at international is coz it's the highest standard, how many more times do I have to say it. If I was banging on about how much better X player was in the pro 12 you'd be all over it saying how bad the pro 12 is and referencing how the prem standard is so much higher but not now the show is on the other foot.

Was I moaning when North wasn't playing, or Halfpenny or any other Englishman picked over a Welshman so it's got nothing to do with that, for me.

 

[E17yid]

Oh dear. It seems E17yid has gone into his 'everyone linked with English rugby is effectively Margaret Thatcher' mode.

*takes cover*

Mate, have you seen the quotes he's said about Wales. He didn't even acknowledge us as a country last time. Plus, I don't even think he believes what he says he just loves the mind games hence why I called him a troll.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I'm not taking any personal sleight against Wales. I take issue with your use of the word comfortably. If you just said they're 2 good hookers who are a league below the best hooker in the world but George edges it fit me for X Y and Z I'd have no problem, I'd disagree but I'd understand.

The reason why I'm looking at international is coz it's the highest standard, how many more times do I have to say it. If I was banging on about how much better X player was in the pro 12 you'd be all over it saying how bad the pro 12 is and referencing how the prem standard is so much higher but not now the show is on the other foot.

Was I moaning when North wasn't playing, or Halfpenny or any other Englishman picked over a Welshman so it's got nothing to do with that, for me.

Okay I retract the word comfortably.

He is better than Owens in the same way that Vunipola is better than Faletau.

i.e. better.



And yes I wouldn't take much stock in a lot of pro-12 performances because the standard of opposition is quite often the equivalent of a B-team (not the case in the Premiership). When it's actual first teams against each other, then of course I wouldn't write it off (unless it was Dragons or the Italians).

But I would take stock of performances in Europe where the standard these days is very high (and where the Welsh teams do pretty poorly at the moment to be fair so it's hard to compare).

Of course performances at international level mean more, but that doesn't mean club performances mean nothing otherwise nobody would ever get to play for their country. So based on the fact that George plays strong opposition every week and also gets good game time for England, I'm happy saying that he's comfo.....ahem.... the best hooker in the NH.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Mate, have you seen the quotes he's said about Wales. He didn't even acknowledge us as a country last time. Plus, I don't even think he believes what he says he just loves the mind games hence why I called him a troll.

Seems to be working though

 

[E17yid]

Seems to be working though

Not at all really. He's just a troll but i don't mind him tbh. The Wales comments were funny. His comments pre lions tour less so but you know, it's Eddie Jones.

 

[werty]

Jones is the Mourinho of Rugby.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Jones is the Mourinho of Rugby.

In terms of his mouth definitely.

Not the same sort of cynical arsehole as Mourinho though (although is anyone really?)

 

[E17yid]

Okay I retract the word comfortably.

He is better than Owens in the same way that Vunipola is better than Faletau.

i.e. better.



And yes I wouldn't take much stock in a lot of pro-12 performances because the standard of opposition is quite often the equivalent of a B-team (not the case in the Premiership). When it's actual first teams against each other, then of course I wouldn't write it off (unless it was Dragons or the Italians).

But I would take stock of performances in Europe where the standard these days is very high (and where the Welsh teams do pretty poorly at the moment to be fair so it's hard to compare).

Of course performances at international level mean more, but that doesn't mean club performances mean nothing otherwise nobody would ever get to play for their country. So based on the fact that George plays strong opposition every week and also gets good game time for England, I'm happy saying that he's comfo.....ahem.... the best hooker in the NH.

Well, when the 6N starts next year I'll expect George to beat Owens in every area of the game.

You slag off the Italian teams, fair enough, but Bristol and Worcester are pretty shit, no?

You're right about the Welsh teams re Europe but the Irish are doing ok so the top 7-8 teams are pretty decent. We'll have to see how the whole SA thing pans out but hopefully they strengthen the league.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Well, when the 6N starts next year I'll expect George to beat Owens in every area of the game.

You slag off the Italian teams, fair enough, but Bristol and Worcester are pretty shit, no?

You're right about the Welsh teams re Europe but the Irish are doing ok so the top 7-8 teams are pretty decent. We'll have to see how the whole SA thing pans out but hopefully they strengthen the league.

Worcester are a decent team. With their squad depth I think they'd easily finish top 6 in the Pro 12.

Their first team wouldn't cope against the first teams of many pro 12 teams but as the first teams play so irregularly I'd fancy Worcester.

The Irish teams do better in Europe yes and the Pro 12 allows them to focus on that. Although even with that caveat they aren't doing great recently.

I personally think they and the Welsh teams would do much better in Europe if they were able to play their teams more reugularly in the Pro 12 and if the league was structured a bit better.

i.e. Cut down the teams, allow the clubs more control and generally stop treating it like a second tier competition.

So...step one...add South African teams