The Rugby Thread

[mpickard2087]

New Zealand? A tad underwhelming to be honest, maybe they aren't the unbeatable machine afterall? It's not to take away from the Lions performances either. They showed the all blacks to be mortal.

For me they lacked a bit of leadership, particularly in the backline and just lacked a bit of pragmatism and direction at times - no Carter, Nonu or Smith any more showed, and then injuries/suspensions didn't help.

It seemed to me that they kept trying to force it and play in the wrong areas. Lions defence was its strong point, and they did well in this aspect, but I felt NZ kept repeating mistakes, playing in the wrong areas, and definitely playing to the Lions benefit. They lacked someone who could calm things down and a touch of pragmatism, it wasn't until late on yesterday that 9 and 10 started to kick and so play in the right areas and build pressure for example.

Lack of a reliable goal kicker in tight games does also eventually come back to haunt you.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Auntie Beeb's combined tour XV ...

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Codie Taylor
3. Tadgh Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Sam Warburton
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Kieran Read
9. Conor Murray
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Rieko Ioane
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Jordie Barrett

It's a good team, that's for sure!

 

[talkshowhost86]

So now that the Lions are done, I'm very excited looking ahead to England's future, and I'd love us to get a crack at the All Blacks at some point.

In the front row, Marler and Vunipola are both good in their own ways, although at Tighthead we have a few more issues. Sinckler is coming along nicely but still needs to work on his scrum-play against the best in the world, and I think Cole's best days are behind him. At hooker, surely George needs to take over from Hartley now.

In the second row we've got a wealth of options, but I hope we go back to Itoje at lock as that's where he's at his best. Itoje plus any of Kruis/Lawes/Launchbury is a great combo.

The back-row is one potential area of weakness, although there are still some good players available. Obviously Billy will continue to be no.8 (the Lions really did miss him) and the likes of Robshaw and Haskell will continue to be in the squads for the forseeable future. But with the Curry-brothers and Underhill coming through, plus the likes of Clifford hopefully maturing, there will be quite a few options.

Scrum half is probably the biggest weakness England have. Youngs is fine on his day (terrible on others) and Care is on the way out at international level. Beyond that I'm not sure where England look. Robson and Simpson at Wasps seem to be out of contention, and there's not a huge number of younger players coming through in that position. Maunder went on the Argentina tour, but he'll need a lot more time before being considered for England methinks.

Fly half depends on how we want to play. Ford flattered to deceive for much of the 6Ns and I'd like to see Farrell back at 10, although depending on how Lozowski develops he may also come into the equation.

At centre, if Farrell isn't at 12 we've got Te'o, and JJ will be top of the list for 13, but below that we've got a glut of young centres (Marchant, Slade, Devoto, Mallinder) who should now start to be considered for the international team.

And in the back three, I'd like to see Watson moved to fullback instead of Brown, with Nowell and Daly on the wings.

All in all exciting times for English rugby.

 

[E17yid]

So now that the Lions are done, I'm very excited looking ahead to England's future, and I'd love us to get a crack at the All Blacks at some point.

In the front row, Marler and Vunipola are both good in their own ways, although at Tighthead we have a few more issues. Sinckler is coming along nicely but still needs to work on his scrum-play against the best in the world, and I think Cole's best days are behind him. At hooker, surely George needs to take over from Hartley now.

In the second row we've got a wealth of options, but I hope we go back to Itoje at lock as that's where he's at his best. Itoje plus any of Kruis/Lawes/Launchbury is a great combo.

The back-row is one potential area of weakness, although there are still some good players available. Obviously Billy will continue to be no.8 (the Lions really did miss him) and the likes of Robshaw and Haskell will continue to be in the squads for the forseeable future. But with the Curry-brothers and Underhill coming through, plus the likes of Clifford hopefully maturing, there will be quite a few options.

Scrum half is probably the biggest weakness England have. Youngs is fine on his day (terrible on others) and Care is on the way out at international level. Beyond that I'm not sure where England look. Robson and Simpson at Wasps seem to be out of contention, and there's not a huge number of younger players coming through in that position. Maunder went on the Argentina tour, but he'll need a lot more time before being considered for England methinks.

Fly half depends on how we want to play. Ford flattered to deceive for much of the 6Ns and I'd like to see Farrell back at 10, although depending on how Lozowski develops he may also come into the equation.

At centre, if Farrell isn't at 12 we've got Te'o, and JJ will be top of the list for 13, but below that we've got a glut of young centres (Marchant, Slade, Devoto, Mallinder) who should now start to be considered for the international team.

And in the back three, I'd like to see Watson moved to fullback instead of Brown, with Nowell and Daly on the wings.

All in all exciting times for English rugby.

You've always lacked depth at 9, even when I was a kid. Scrum half is one area we've always produced the goods on, front 5 not so much.

Who have England got this Autumn. We've got NZ, Oz andSA, I think.

Looking forward to NZ, obviously.

 

[talkshowhost86]

You've always lacked depth at 9, even when I was a kid. Scrum half is one area we've always produced the goods on, front 5 not so much.

Who have England got this Autumn. We've got NZ, Oz andSA, I think.

Looking forward to NZ, obviously.

True about England and scrum halves. Dawson was quality for a long time, but since then it's been a weak area for a while.

We've got Argentina (again), Australia (again) and Samoa (who cares).

Bit of a rubbish set of internationals to be honest.

Wales also have Georgia. Relegation 6 pointer?

Seriously though Wales' games will be more interesting than England's by the sounds of it, particularly with Gatland back at the helm. If Wales don't beat these Australia and South Africa sides then they may well never do again, and whilst I fully expect the All Blacks to do what they normally do to Wales, they'll have it in the back of their mind that there were plenty of Welsh players in the Lions squad that drew with them.

Having said that they'll presumably also reign down high balls on Liam Williams whenever possible!

 

[E17yid]

True about England and scrum halves. Dawson was quality for a long time, but since then it's been a weak area for a while.

We've got Argentina (again), Australia (again) and Samoa (who cares).

Bit of a rubbish set of internationals to be honest.

Wales also have Georgia. Relegation 6 pointer?

Seriously though Wales' games will be more interesting than England's by the sounds of it, particularly with Gatland back at the helm. If Wales don't beat these Australia and South Africa sides then they may well never do again, and whilst I fully expect the All Blacks to do what they normally do to Wales, they'll have it in the back of their mind that there were plenty of Welsh players in the Lions squad that drew with them.

Having said that they'll presumably also reign down high balls on Liam Williams whenever possible!

Yeah, I'd imagine NZ will want to give us a bit of a beating hopefully we can keep it within 10 points.

SA haven't been their usual selves but they turned out some good performances and results against France recently so they look like they're slowly getting back to where they were. I'm not expecting to win (I never do against SH sides) but I'm expecting a tight game, bit of a 50/50 that one.

Not expecting to beat NZ, obviously, but I'll be gutted if we lost to the Ozzies and SA, we've got to beat one of them. If we can beat both of them and lose a closeish match to NZ then I'd consider that a really successful autumn. What's interesting is that we turned out 2 good performances against NZ when we toured last year and we had injuries so hopefully we give a good account of ourselves.

Yeah, Liam was generally pretty poor under the high balls, he's usually pretty solid, though, so I'm putting it down to bad conditions out in NZ and hopes he turns it around this Autumn. Plus I imagine he'll be on the wing with LH at 15

 

[talkshowhost86]

Plus I imagine he'll be on the wing with LH at 15

Oh well.

 

[onthetwo]

Auntie Beeb's combined tour XV ...

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Codie Taylor
3. Tadgh Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Sam Warburton
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Kieran Read
9. Conor Murray
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Rieko Ioane
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Jordie Barrett

It's a good team, that's for sure!

Daly has to be in it somewhere....freakish skills that guy

 

[E17yid]

Auntie Beeb's combined tour XV ...

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Codie Taylor
3. Tadgh Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Sam Warburton
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Kieran Read
9. Conor Murray
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Rieko Ioane
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Jordie Barrett

It's a good team, that's for sure!

SOB had a great tour but for me, personally, I'd have Cane every day of the week. Think he's mustard. Only mid 20s as well.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Auntie Beeb's combined tour XV ...

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Codie Taylor
3. Tadgh Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Sam Warburton
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Kieran Read
9. Conor Murray
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Rieko Ioane
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Jordie Barrett

It's a good team, that's for sure!

They've missed out the player of the series for me.

Accidental Offside.

 

[mpickard2087]

Auntie Beeb's combined tour XV ...

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Codie Taylor
3. Tadgh Furlong
4. Maro Itoje
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Sam Warburton
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Kieran Read
9. Conor Murray
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Rieko Ioane
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Jordie Barrett

It's a good team, that's for sure!

Plenty to disagree with there for me! The front row was a very tight battle, think you could argue either/or for all of them. In my opinion Franks was the best prop in the tests though so should have a place. In the backrow Cane was the best flanker in the first two tests, worst omission in that team. Read/Faletau quite a close selection but Read's first test performance gets him in to be fair.

Aaron Smith was the best 9, in the last two test matches NZ suffered taking him off and it was such a step down to Perenara. B Barrett and Farrell didn't have their best series in my opinion, but yeah kind of default picks at 10 and 12. Naholo is a real wtf selection! and J Barrett only played one test match.

I'd go something like:

Mako, George, Franks, Itoje, Retallick, Cane, SOB, Read, Smith, Barrett, Ioane, Farrell, Davies, Watson/Daly, Williams

 

[talkshowhost86]

Plenty to disagree with there for me! The front row was a very tight battle, think you could argue either/or for all of them. In my opinion Franks was the best prop in the tests though so should have a place. In the backrow Cane was the best flanker in the first two tests, worst omission in that team. Read/Faletau quite a close selection but Read's first test performance gets him in to be fair.

Aaron Smith was the best 9, in the last two test matches NZ suffered taking him off and it was such a step down to Perenara. B Barrett and Farrell didn't have their best series in my opinion, but yeah kind of default picks at 10 and 12. Naholo is a real wtf selection! and J Barrett only played one test match.

I'd go something like:

Mako, George, Franks, Itoje, Retallick, Cane, SOB, Read, Smith, Barrett, Ioane, Farrell, Davies, Watson/Daly, Williams

Yeah I'd definitely have Smith ahead of Murray and Cane in there ahead of Warburton. Agree about Naholo, but to be fair to Jordie Barrett, he was probably the only full-back to have a consistently good game, even if it was in one test. Williams was all over the shop at times (although his broken-field running was pretty good) and NZ never really settled on anyone at 15.

 

[mpickard2087]

So now that the Lions are done, I'm very excited looking ahead to England's future, and I'd love us to get a crack at the All Blacks at some point.

In the front row, Marler and Vunipola are both good in their own ways, although at Tighthead we have a few more issues. Sinckler is coming along nicely but still needs to work on his scrum-play against the best in the world, and I think Cole's best days are behind him. At hooker, surely George needs to take over from Hartley now.

In the second row we've got a wealth of options, but I hope we go back to Itoje at lock as that's where he's at his best. Itoje plus any of Kruis/Lawes/Launchbury is a great combo.

The back-row is one potential area of weakness, although there are still some good players available. Obviously Billy will continue to be no.8 (the Lions really did miss him) and the likes of Robshaw and Haskell will continue to be in the squads for the forseeable future. But with the Curry-brothers and Underhill coming through, plus the likes of Clifford hopefully maturing, there will be quite a few options.

Scrum half is probably the biggest weakness England have. Youngs is fine on his day (terrible on others) and Care is on the way out at international level. Beyond that I'm not sure where England look. Robson and Simpson at Wasps seem to be out of contention, and there's not a huge number of younger players coming through in that position. Maunder went on the Argentina tour, but he'll need a lot more time before being considered for England methinks.

Fly half depends on how we want to play. Ford flattered to deceive for much of the 6Ns and I'd like to see Farrell back at 10, although depending on how Lozowski develops he may also come into the equation.

At centre, if Farrell isn't at 12 we've got Te'o, and JJ will be top of the list for 13, but below that we've got a glut of young centres (Marchant, Slade, Devoto, Mallinder) who should now start to be considered for the international team.

And in the back three, I'd like to see Watson moved to fullback instead of Brown, with Nowell and Daly on the wings.

All in all exciting times for English rugby.

Agree with most of that by and large:

1's - Sorted. Mako, Marler, Genge coming through, solid option in Mullan around the squad too. Good depth.

2's - Fairly sorted. Hartley is coming towards the end but still offers the best setpiece work and leadership. George is a class act waiting to take over. LCD and Taylor pushing for contention too.

3's - Options, but not sorted. Cole is not what he once was, both in the setpiece and at the breakdown (though has actually started scoring tries). Sinckler is a good option to have, think he's better off the bench though. Would like to see more of Collier, technically really good prop.

Second row - Strongest position we have. 4 excellent options to battle it out. After that Ewels has looked at ease so far stepping up to internationals, Isiekwe is a really good prospect, and we still have solid options like Atttwood at club level.

Back Row - Not that concerning in my opinion. Robshaw, Haskell, Wood are three experienced operators. Underhill and Curry x2 are three young options who look really promising. Wilson looked really good on tour for me, like another Robshaw type who knew his own game and just got on with the job. Then got Clifford still hanging around, and I think Kvesic could do well with his move to Exeter and get back in contention. At 8 we are fine - Billy with Hughes deputising, and Mercer in the U20's coming through is very good.

9's - Yeah, weak. Have to see what emerges, though the two at Exeter coming through are spoken of quite well.

10/12 - No idea why we would entertain ditching the Ford/Farrell partnership or go away from two ball players. They cover each others weaknesses and takes less pressure off the one player and allows for variety and options in attack. Ford gets too much stick and people still expect a Jonny Wilkinson type 10 who tackles like a flanker. He's the most naturally gifted ball in hand and best playmaker at 10 we have and shouldn't lose his place. There's a number of young options also in contention like Slade, Lozowski, Francis, Devoto, Mallinder etc plus a load of young flyhalves coming through and not really concerned about these positions.

Other centres - Pretty stacked with a variety of options led by Joseph and T'eo (who I think is another best left as impact sub, but if he starts it at 13 outside a ball playing 10/12).

Wings - Great depth.

15 - As I've said before, Brown is on the decline but he did well on the Argentina tour and the shirt is his until someone demonstrates they are as good under the high ball, carry the ball back in traffic, and be a solid last line of defence. Currently no one has. I think Daly is the best option though of those currently in contention as he is the best footballer.


Overall good depth in most areas and hopefully that competition keeps driving results and improvement.

 

[E17yid]

I still don't get the fuss over George, TBH.

If he was 20-22 perhaps I'd get it but he's in his prime years, hasn't racked up any international caps and while he certainly didn't disgrace himself on tour (just getting named is an achievement) he hardly set it alight either.

He'll have a solid international career, I'm sure, but Dane Coles he is not.

Even the hype around Itoje gets a bit silly at times but is much more justified considering his age and performances.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I still don't get the fuss over George, TBH.

If he was 20-22 perhaps I'd get it but he's in his prime years, hasn't racked up any international caps and while he certainly didn't disgrace himself on tour (just getting named is an achievement) he hardly set it alight either.

He'll have a solid international career, I'm sure, but Dane Coles he is not.

Even the hype around Itoje gets a bit silly at times but is much more justified considering his age and performances.

I think you must not have seen George much for Saracens then because he's been dominating other hookers all over Europe for the past two years.

He is good in the scrum, is very good at the lineout (don't let two throws from the entire tour distort that fact) and much better in the loose than most. He showed all of that on tour and I suppose that's why Gatland clearly favoured him over Owens and Best.

I think almost all English rugby fans would agree that it's ridiculous he hasn't started for England (although to be fair Jones brings him on as early as possible in most games) but at 26, particularly for a hooker, that's about the right time to be breaking into the international team.

Maybe he's not Dane Coles, but that's like saying you don't rate Warburton because he's not Richie McCaw.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I still don't get the fuss over George, TBH.

If he was 20-22 perhaps I'd get it but he's in his prime years, hasn't racked up any international caps and while he certainly didn't disgrace himself on tour (just getting named is an achievement) he hardly set it alight either.

He'll have a solid international career, I'm sure, but Dane Coles he is not.

Even the hype around Itoje gets a bit silly at times but is much more justified considering his age and performances.

And keep in mind I say this all about George as a Quins fan who generally doesn't like much that comes out of Saracens...before I'm accused of any sort of English tinted glasses.

 

[E17yid]

And keep in mind I say this all about George as a Quins fan who generally doesn't like much that comes out of Saracens...before I'm accused of any sort of English tinted glasses.

You're right, I only watch the highlights of the prem with a handful of live games here and there and I'm sure he's very good for sarecens but we're talking international here which, in anyone's book, is a step up.

Hand on heart I wasn't blown away by him at all on the lions tour. Take away that great line break in the build up to Murrays try and he didn't do that much in the loose. Set piece was solid bar the last test (though you can hardly ignore that, missing big pressure throws like that is the difference in the step up to international level- you just can't do it and claim to be a top class operator in the tight)

The DC thing is fair enough and harsh of me as he's in a league of his own but wanted to bring some perspective.

 

[talkshowhost86]

You're right, I only watch the highlights of the prem with a handful of live games here and there and I'm sure he's very good for sarecens but we're talking international here which, in anyone's book, is a step up.

Hand on heart I wasn't blown away by him at all on the lions tour. Take away that great line break in the build up to Murrays try and he didn't do that much in the loose. Set piece was solid bar the last test (though you can hardly ignore that, missing big pressure throws like that is the difference in the step up to international level- you just can't do it and claim to be a top class operator in the tight)

The DC thing is fair enough and harsh of me as he's in a league of his own but wanted to bring some perspective.

I thought he was excellent in the loose in the second test and did a lot of good work securing position in the third test even if he wasn't making a lot of ground. I don't think he got turned over once despite being first receiver a fair bit, whereas both AWJ and Faletau lost the ball twice each (not picking on them because they're Welsh btw...but they were the forwards who were turned over in that third test and it shows the quality of opposition that everyone was dealing with when players like that can be turned over).

It's a fair point about needing more international experience, and I really hope Jones gives it to him soon. But for me he's already comfortably the best hooker in the Northern Hemisphere, and he'll only get better. I'm not quite sure where Sarries get these blokes from but they seem to be able to pick them from a very early age.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Would like to see more of Collier, technically really good prop.

Likes a glass of red wine as well. Had the good fortune to go to an event recently with him and Tim Visser at a wine tasting. Seemed like a great lad (they both did actually).

He needs to get some consistent time with Quins because he's had a fair few injuries which have stopped him making that step up. But with him and the Sink, plus Marler in the other side, and with Rowntree coaching them all, we're pretty well fixed in that area (if not in many other areas unfortunately).

 

[E17yid]

I thought he was excellent in the loose in the second test and did a lot of good work securing position in the third test even if he wasn't making a lot of ground. I don't think he got turned over once despite being first receiver a fair bit, whereas both AWJ and Faletau lost the ball twice each (not picking on them because they're Welsh btw...but they were the forwards who were turned over in that third test and it shows the quality of opposition that everyone was dealing with when players like that can be turned over).

It's a fair point about needing more international experience, and I really hope Jones gives it to him soon. But for me he's already comfortably the best hooker in the Northern Hemisphere, and he'll only get better. I'm not quite sure where Sarries get these blokes from but they seem to be able to pick them from a very early age.

You can't even say, with any real basis in fact, that he's the best hooker in the NH let alone comfortably the best.

You can start saying that when he outperforms his peers in the 6N until then you're just going on club form which, as much as you rate the standard of the prem, is inferior to international rugby.

Owens has been in great form for the Scarlets (winning the pro 12) but, more importantly, was probably the best hooker in the 6N so saying George is comfortably the best is a bit silly considering he hasn't played at that level.

He's clearly a good player but you can't just go on Sarecens form, if I only looked at regional form for Celtic players I'm sure you'd pull me up on it as the best measure is international rugby as it's the highest standard we have is the 6N

I'm sure he'll start over Hartley in the 2018 6N so we'll see if he's comfortably better then.