The realism of a full rebuild

[homer hotspur]

There were 2 occasions last night that summed up how bad some fans are. First one was when Reggie was substituted and as he applauded fans in the South Stand while he walked off the pitch, there was one fan shouting abuse at him and saying he should have blocked the crosses for their goals.

The second was a guy behind me wanting Emerson to break both his legs so he never has to watch him play for Spurs again.

The sad thing is that you get these fans all round the ground and they tend to be the ones you hear loudest.

Same applies for the match day thread on here too.

awful and, as always, do these people really think it helps anything? Boo at the end if you really have to and don't single out individuals. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that Conte is the sort to take booing of the team quite personally and that won't end well.

 

[CrazyKen]

@Trix and his postings, are one of the few things that keeps me calm and patient. So thank you!

 

[Trix]

this post is to sensible for on here ?, but I wonder with your insight has there been any news on the scouting department being overhauled?

Personally I think last night was down to fatigue conte didn’t rotate because he feels like he can’t

Fatigue? Not sure about that it was the same positions making the same errors we've seen time and again under numerous managers. There is a real lack of quality at RWB, and CM and the drop off between Dier and Sanchez is substantial with what they are currently being asked to do imo. Davies had an off night but to be fair that's been a rarity since Conte came in. PEH just ran all over the place and I feel it's always the same in a two man midfield when Winks is in there. Winks was back to type last night for me. He just occupies positions, doesn't press and doesn't pick up runners. He's always in space even when we are out of possession, and to compensate(which he shouldn't) PEH just goes all headless chicken trying to cover too much ground.

 

[CornerPinDreamer]

I honestly didn't realise there were so many on here that just don't actually understand the game, and the reality of how things really work in team sports. It's actually quite alarming that some posters can spend hours every day talking about all things football on here, and yet just expect things to happen like they do on Fifa or football manager. I'm not talking about genuine criticism that is valid, I'm talking about writing a young kid off after 30 minutes of football in a new country, and not understanding how an entire rebuild isn't going to happen over night.

At the very start of the transfer window I made a detailed post regarding how the club was moving forward, how there were plans in place that the manager, DOF and chairman were firmly behind. It was about being patient because the club had a two window strategy in order to be ready to compete properly next season. January was about getting all our ducks in a row so that come the Summer things could progress to where we have needed them to be for years. Deadwood players off the wage bill and in the shop window elsewhere. Come the Summer it won't be about having to move players out first, or freeing up wages and we can just get on with preparing for the coming season.

Those of you that keep shouting about top 4, and missed opportunities really need to understand that was never the main aim. Of course we'd like it, and will be doing all we can to get there this season, but not at the expense of being optimum for 22-23. "Why didn't we get a RWB in January" well because the one we really want isn't available until the Summer. Traore was seen as a possibility, but only at the price we were willing to go to, and the fact he could cover other roles as well. We could have bought another RWB to get by, but we'd rather the one we really want, rather than a makeshift purchase that affects long term progression. This is the same for other positions and why those we brought in were done as they were. Bentacur was the only full purchase this window as we were sure of what we were getting. Kulusevki is only a loan and only becomes permanent if he does well(this needs to be remembered).

Criticism at times is valid for sure and last night for instance I can completely understand why there was a fair amount. It's worth pointing out though that the players that really struggled last night(and boy were they poor) are the positions we are actively looking to upgrade in the Summer and have been planning to from the off. RWB, CB and CM were awful last night and this along with another FORWARD are the positions that were identified as where we really need to upgrade.

Now I know it's probably unrealistic to believe people on here will be able to but we really need to understand this is the beginning of the process and we need to temper expectations and let Conte get us to where we all want to be. I know some of you don't buy into ITK and think it's largely spin from the club, well I'd urge you not to take my word for it, and actually listen to what Conte is and has been saying for weeks........

"We are some way behind the best teams in this league, and it will take a lot of work to get us to that level". "THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN ONE TRANSFER WINDOW AND ESPECIALLY IN JANUARY WHERE THINGS ARE FAR MORE DIFFICULT".


I know some of you will be saying(and rightfully so) heard this all before, and you are right you have. This is different though for so many reasons. We now have a top level coach who the club are backing, we really need to get behind it and at least give it the Summer window he's said from the start he needs. We will have up's and downs on the way, but we are on track for where Conte expects us to be come next August.

Thanks for the post and reassurance. Honestly this is the type of stratgeic & joined up approach we’ve been sorely lacking. II’ve seen this in big comanies that are underperforming or doing work in the wrong areas. They appoint a chief operating officer or CFO and suddenly everything starts to get shifted into a single direction. This seems to be what AC is doing.


I guess it’s time to stop complaining about Levy

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I guess it’s time to stop complaining about Levy

 

[smallsnc]

Regarding last night's match, Southampton was one of the worse teams from our perspective we could play with only 3 senior CMs available. I think tactics called for 3 CMs but that would leave us short numbers on the bench. When we are looking at putting a team together for next year, I hope it is not just about replacing a CM or 2 but adding 1 to our numbers so that we have some tactical flexibility even when someone is out.

 

[The Opinionated Lurker]

A well-written, rational post which will almost certainly fall on the deaf ears of those at who it is aimed.

Funny you say that considering 97% of this place thinks the exact same things. It’s v echo chambery in here but people read 2 or 3 negative/critical posts and start crying.

 

[rossdapep]

I honestly didn't realise there were so many on here that just don't actually understand the game, and the reality of how things really work in team sports. It's actually quite alarming that some posters can spend hours every day talking about all things football on here, and yet just expect things to happen like they do on Fifa or football manager. I'm not talking about genuine criticism that is valid, I'm talking about writing a young kid off after 30 minutes of football in a new country, and not understanding how an entire rebuild isn't going to happen over night.

At the very start of the transfer window I made a detailed post regarding how the club was moving forward, how there were plans in place that the manager, DOF and chairman were firmly behind. It was about being patient because the club had a two window strategy in order to be ready to compete properly next season. January was about getting all our ducks in a row so that come the Summer things could progress to where we have needed them to be for years. Deadwood players off the wage bill and in the shop window elsewhere. Come the Summer it won't be about having to move players out first, or freeing up wages and we can just get on with preparing for the coming season.

Those of you that keep shouting about top 4, and missed opportunities really need to understand that was never the main aim. Of course we'd like it, and will be doing all we can to get there this season, but not at the expense of being optimum for 22-23. "Why didn't we get a RWB in January" well because the one we really want isn't available until the Summer. Traore was seen as a possibility, but only at the price we were willing to go to, and the fact he could cover other roles as well. We could have bought another RWB to get by, but we'd rather the one we really want, rather than a makeshift purchase that affects long term progression. This is the same for other positions and why those we brought in were done as they were. Bentacur was the only full purchase this window as we were sure of what we were getting. Kulusevki is only a loan and only becomes permanent if he does well(this needs to be remembered).

Criticism at times is valid for sure and last night for instance I can completely understand why there was a fair amount. It's worth pointing out though that the players that really struggled last night(and boy were they poor) are the positions we are actively looking to upgrade in the Summer and have been planning to from the off. RWB, CB and CM were awful last night and this along with another FORWARD are the positions that were identified as where we really need to upgrade.

Now I know it's probably unrealistic to believe people on here will be able to but we really need to understand this is the beginning of the process and we need to temper expectations and let Conte get us to where we all want to be. I know some of you don't buy into ITK and think it's largely spin from the club, well I'd urge you not to take my word for it, and actually listen to what Conte is and has been saying for weeks........

"We are some way behind the best teams in this league, and it will take a lot of work to get us to that level". "THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN ONE TRANSFER WINDOW AND ESPECIALLY IN JANUARY WHERE THINGS ARE FAR MORE DIFFICULT".


I know some of you will be saying(and rightfully so) heard this all before, and you are right you have. This is different though for so many reasons. We now have a top level coach who the club are backing, we really need to get behind it and at least give it the Summer window he's said from the start he needs. We will have up's and downs on the way, but we are on track for where Conte expects us to be come next August.

Great post, Trix. I have been getting fed up of coming in here and constantly seeing people react with such a defeatist/whingy attitude when we lose or a player has a bad performance. It's strange when these same people often state the likes of Winks, Hojbjerg, Sanchez and co are not good enough, when it's clear we will be upgrading these positions and we have only had one small difficult window under Conte.

I think a fair few people could help calm themselves down by analysing the early stages of Klopp and Guardiola's reigns in the PL.

Guardiola struggled a lot in his first season, but he was able to fix that with a huge spend. So that's probably not the best example to use in our case.

But if you look at Klopp, then I think it becomes clear what work we have ahead of us. Klopp joined mid season and had a poor squad so I feel like this is a perfect comparison.

Klopp arrived at Anfield in October 2015. And this was his record for the rest of that season.
W - 13
D - 9
L - 8

Here are some of the defeats - 1-2 Palace (H), 0-2 Newcastle (A), 0-3 Watford (A), 0-2 West Ham (A), 0-1 Man Utd (H), 0-2 Leicester (A), 2-3 Southampton (A), 1-3 Swansea (A)

Some absolute shockers there. On the flip side they had some solid wins - Chelsea (3-1), City (4-1, 3-0) and Everton (4-0). I believe that is because Klopp could galvanise his players for the big games and the strategy worked but in those losses too many players showed their lack of consistency and ability to perform at a high level.

This was Liverpool's team when they played and lost 3-2 to Southampton

That team was error-prone (Lovren, Mignolet), had players who had seen better days (Sturridge) and players who had failed to live up to expectation (Lallana, Allen, Origi).

I think you could easily say that about our squad. Error-prone (Sanchez, Hojbjerg), seen better days (Dele, Winks), failed to live up to expectation (Winks again, Ndombele, Lo Celso)

The point is people have to remember WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM. We haven't been 1 or 2 quality additions short, we need widespread changes like Klopp needed. And it took more than one season/transfer window.

So what did Klopp do?

First he had to rid the squad of players who were not up to standard/surplus to requirements. He actually got rid of loads of players

At least 8 players who were first teasers/expensive signings.

He didn't make many signings though, but 3 very important ones (Matip, Wijnaldum & Mane)

Basically, he was streamlining his squad so that he could have a small stable, settled squad to work with and build from there.

That's exactly what I think Conte and FP are doing, clearing the decks so they can see clearly.

That season Liverpool were much better but still not consistent enough to prevent poor losses - 0-2 Burnley (A), Bournemouth 3-4 (A), 2-3 Swansea (H), 0-2 Hull (A), 1-3 Leicester (A), 1-2 Palace (H).

They also drew 10 games as they struggled to maintain energy levels with games quick and fast - that is because their team didn't have the depth.

This is the team that lost to Bournemouth.

You can see that Liverpool still had frailties in the first 11 and players who were simply not good enough, mostly in defence.

Over the following few windows, Liverpool added Salah, Robertson, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Van Dijk, Alison and Keita to rally improve all of these areas with Can, Lovren, Clyne, Leiva and a few others departing.

I think we are currently at this stage. We have some players that you can trust but we need a couple of windows similar to Liverpool's here.

It's a long process, probably longer than some anticipated and that's probably why some are getting irritated.

However, if you can bare in mind Liverpool's transformation under Klopp, and that it took time and was bumpy then it will make you feel a bit better.

 

[THE SPURSBOY]

Ralp H just come out and said he knew how we would play and took advantage of it and praised the coach that looked into our tactics of how when we go in front we revert to type and sit back and they knew they just had to push forward and they would create and score

 

[dannyo]

I honestly didn't realise there were so many on here that just don't actually understand the game, and the reality of how things really work in team sports. It's actually quite alarming that some posters can spend hours every day talking about all things football on here, and yet just expect things to happen like they do on Fifa or football manager. I'm not talking about genuine criticism that is valid, I'm talking about writing a young kid off after 30 minutes of football in a new country, and not understanding how an entire rebuild isn't going to happen over night.

At the very start of the transfer window I made a detailed post regarding how the club was moving forward, how there were plans in place that the manager, DOF and chairman were firmly behind. It was about being patient because the club had a two window strategy in order to be ready to compete properly next season. January was about getting all our ducks in a row so that come the Summer things could progress to where we have needed them to be for years. Deadwood players off the wage bill and in the shop window elsewhere. Come the Summer it won't be about having to move players out first, or freeing up wages and we can just get on with preparing for the coming season.

Those of you that keep shouting about top 4, and missed opportunities really need to understand that was never the main aim. Of course we'd like it, and will be doing all we can to get there this season, but not at the expense of being optimum for 22-23. "Why didn't we get a RWB in January" well because the one we really want isn't available until the Summer. Traore was seen as a possibility, but only at the price we were willing to go to, and the fact he could cover other roles as well. We could have bought another RWB to get by, but we'd rather the one we really want, rather than a makeshift purchase that affects long term progression. This is the same for other positions and why those we brought in were done as they were. Bentacur was the only full purchase this window as we were sure of what we were getting. Kulusevki is only a loan and only becomes permanent if he does well(this needs to be remembered).

Criticism at times is valid for sure and last night for instance I can completely understand why there was a fair amount. It's worth pointing out though that the players that really struggled last night(and boy were they poor) are the positions we are actively looking to upgrade in the Summer and have been planning to from the off. RWB, CB and CM were awful last night and this along with another FORWARD are the positions that were identified as where we really need to upgrade.

Now I know it's probably unrealistic to believe people on here will be able to but we really need to understand this is the beginning of the process and we need to temper expectations and let Conte get us to where we all want to be. I know some of you don't buy into ITK and think it's largely spin from the club, well I'd urge you not to take my word for it, and actually listen to what Conte is and has been saying for weeks........

"We are some way behind the best teams in this league, and it will take a lot of work to get us to that level". "THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN IN ONE TRANSFER WINDOW AND ESPECIALLY IN JANUARY WHERE THINGS ARE FAR MORE DIFFICULT".


I know some of you will be saying(and rightfully so) heard this all before, and you are right you have. This is different though for so many reasons. We now have a top level coach who the club are backing, we really need to get behind it and at least give it the Summer window he's said from the start he needs. We will have up's and downs on the way, but we are on track for where Conte expects us to be come next August.

I don’t see anything to argue with in here and we 100% have to trust the process. We will never have a better manager, compared the level that we’re operating at. He’s inherited a shit squad, let’s be honest, and he’s not been shy in making this fact known. I admire that about him and would expect nothing less. I also feel very positive about the future under him, despite what most transfer windows in recent memory have shown us.

My one and only question is about our style of play. The only games I can remember recently where we’ve pressed the ball and/or had any decent possession were against Liverpool and Leicester, where we played with 3 in the middle. We’ve become used to being a counterattacking team under the previous two incumbents but that trend has continued under Conte too. You can accept it against teams like City but when you see Southampton rock up and dominate the ball (as good as they were last night) it rings alarm bells. Do we play this way because he hasn’t got the players he wants and therefore can’t play the system he wants properly, or can we expect this constant concession of the ball to continue next season? We do look dangerous on the break and I know you can’t go hung-ho in every game but it would be nice to actually play on the front foot and dominate the ball against teams you would ‘expect’ us to be beating. Hopefully once he gets the players in that he wants it will bring about a change in that balance.

 

[Guntz]

I just don't see how we can upgrade the squad properly without CL football?

 

[rossdapep]

I just don't see how we can upgrade the squad properly without CL football?

We didn't have CL football when Poch improved us. Signed Toby, Son & Trippier regardless.

Liverpool didn't;t have CL when they signed Mane, Wijnaldum and Matip

 

[dontcallme]

I just don't see how we can upgrade the squad properly without CL football?

I think it comes down to correct scouting than anything.

Even with CL football we can easily lose out on a player to a bigger team.

It’s easy to put up wish lists but targeting obtainable players is the key.

 

[Guntz]

I think it comes down to correct scouting than anything.

Even with CL football we can easily lose out on a player to a bigger team.

It’s easy to put up wish lists but targeting obtainable players is the key.

We didn't have CL football when Poch improved us. Signed Toby, Son & Trippier regardless.

Liverpool didn't;t have CL when they signed Mane, Wijnaldum and Matip

True, I guess we would just have to hope that Paratici has some gems lined up. Or even better we get CL football and can secure our main targets.

But our recent scouting history leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[curlacious]

Yeah, we're at the start of a managerial cycle. Hassenhuttel has been in place for a long time, team has been drilled. It takes at LEAST 6 months, regardless of player quality. It's been 3 months. This is just the start. I'm going to be delaying my judgement until next season.

 

[Trix]

True, I guess we would just have to hope that Paratici has some gems lined up. Or even better we get CL football and can secure our main targets.

But our recent scouting history leaves a lot to be desired.

But as I've said the scouts do the scouting, the DOF decides if he can or can't bring them in, but the manager(Conte) ultimately decides if he wants or doesn't want that to happen. He's made it very clear we've wasted millions and millions in the past on unsuitable players. No way he signs off now on players that he doesn't believe are of the sufficient quality, able to play in this league, and fit what he requires from a player.

This is why things are different now.

 

[chinaman]

A midfield trio of Bentancur, Skipp and Ward-Prowse is what we need.

 

[djee]

Great post, Trix. I have been getting fed up of coming in here and constantly seeing people react with such a defeatist/whingy attitude when we lose or a player has a bad performance. It's strange when these same people often state the likes of Winks, Hojbjerg, Sanchez and co are not good enough, when it's clear we will be upgrading these positions and we have only had one small difficult window under Conte.

I think a fair few people could help calm themselves down by analysing the early stages of Klopp and Guardiola's reigns in the PL.

Guardiola struggled a lot in his first season, but he was able to fix that with a huge spend. So that's probably not the best example to use in our case.

But if you look at Klopp, then I think it becomes clear what work we have ahead of us. Klopp joined mid season and had a poor squad so I feel like this is a perfect comparison.

Klopp arrived at Anfield in October 2015. And this was his record for the rest of that season.
W - 13
D - 9
L - 8

Here are some of the defeats - 1-2 Palace (H), 0-2 Newcastle (A), 0-3 Watford (A), 0-2 West Ham (A), 0-1 Man Utd (H), 0-2 Leicester (A), 2-3 Southampton (A), 1-3 Swansea (A)

Some absolute shockers there. On the flip side they had some solid wins - Chelsea (3-1), City (4-1, 3-0) and Everton (4-0). I believe that is because Klopp could galvanise his players for the big games and the strategy worked but in those losses too many players showed their lack of consistency and ability to perform at a high level.

This was Liverpool's team when they played and lost 3-2 to Southampton
View attachment 105513

That team was error-prone (Lovren, Mignolet), had players who had seen better days (Sturridge) and players who had failed to live up to expectation (Lallana, Allen, Origi).

I think you could easily say that about our squad. Error-prone (Sanchez, Hojbjerg), seen better days (Dele, Winks), failed to live up to expectation (Winks again, Ndombele, Lo Celso)

The point is people have to remember WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM. We haven't been 1 or 2 quality additions short, we need widespread changes like Klopp needed. And it took more than one season/transfer window.

So what did Klopp do?

First he had to rid the squad of players who were not up to standard/surplus to requirements. He actually got rid of loads of players
View attachment 105515
At least 8 players who were first teasers/expensive signings.

He didn't make many signings though, but 3 very important ones (Matip, Wijnaldum & Mane)
View attachment 105516

Basically, he was streamlining his squad so that he could have a small stable, settled squad to work with and build from there.

That's exactly what I think Conte and FP are doing, clearing the decks so they can see clearly.

That season Liverpool were much better but still not consistent enough to prevent poor losses - 0-2 Burnley (A), Bournemouth 3-4 (A), 2-3 Swansea (H), 0-2 Hull (A), 1-3 Leicester (A), 1-2 Palace (H).

They also drew 10 games as they struggled to maintain energy levels with games quick and fast - that is because their team didn't have the depth.

This is the team that lost to Bournemouth.
View attachment 105518
You can see that Liverpool still had frailties in the first 11 and players who were simply not good enough, mostly in defence.

Over the following few windows, Liverpool added Salah, Robertson, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Van Dijk, Alison and Keita to rally improve all of these areas with Can, Lovren, Clyne, Leiva and a few others departing.

I think we are currently at this stage. We have some players that you can trust but we need a couple of windows similar to Liverpool's here.

It's a long process, probably longer than some anticipated and that's probably why some are getting irritated.

However, if you can bare in mind Liverpool's transformation under Klopp, and that it took time and was bumpy then it will make you feel a bit better.

This is a great post.

My only observation would be that despite some bad defeats, LFC even in the early days of Klopp, looked to have a distinct style and you could see what he was trying to instill in his side. Whilst there have been some promising displays under Conte, we have had a number of games - most obviously last night - where we looked totally clueless with no discernable plan other than to hit the opposition on the counter...this is unsustainable in the league.

 

[jurgen11]

This is a great post.

My only observation would be that despite some bad defeats, LFC even in the early days of Klopp, looked to have a distinct style and you could see what he was trying to instill in his side. Whilst there have been some promising displays under Conte, we have had a number of games - most obviously last night - where we looked totally clueless with no discernable plan other than to hit the opposition on the counter...this is unsustainable in the league.

Many of the current players are not good enough or not intelligent enough to understand and implement the system. But that will change as upgrades come in . Take the back 3. Romero makes a mistake and snaps into next tackle like nothing happened, just carries on playing. Sanchez makes a mistake and you can see him carrying it about with him for next 15 minutes , terrified he will do it again....there is a plan, we just need the players to carry it out

 

[rossdapep]

This is a great post.

My only observation would be that despite some bad defeats, LFC even in the early days of Klopp, looked to have a distinct style and you could see what he was trying to instill in his side. Whilst there have been some promising displays under Conte, we have had a number of games - most obviously last night - where we looked totally clueless with no discernable plan other than to hit the opposition on the counter...this is unsustainable in the league.

That's true.

But I do think Klopp's strategy is easier to follow. The reason is it is all about high-energy pressing and attack-minded. Because of that Liverpool were able to look sublime going forward but completely collapsed at the back.

Conte is much more balanced and it isn't about going full-tilt. The problem we have is that it relies on intelligent, technical players who can read the game and situations around them.

Secondly, we really lack physicality and athleticism. Southampton bullied our midfield last night, to combat that you need players who can push back.

Neither Winks or Hojbjerg have that in them to 'scare' the opposition. You need to be able to make the opposition feel your physicality and Southampton's players would have been buoyed by the fact that neither of them are strong enough.

The second thing is, neither are comfortable under pressure with the ball technically. So the opposition know that by pushing them back, they are unable to beat them with the ball by skill, physicality or intelligence. That allows them to play how they want and have the confidence knowing they won't get hurt.

We really need Skipp and Bentancur in there together because, whilst they are not physically the strongest, they are both intelligent and can play there way out of the press.

But we absolutely need a physically imposing athletic player who can give it back.