Match Threads Spurs vs Chelsea - Match Thread - Day 21

[Ionman34]

How much longer do we put up with it??

How long’s a piece of string?

It’s a difficult one to answer in all honesty, but you can’t just pull the trigger at the first sign of adversity.

Until the end of the season is my personal opinion. You can’t evaluate success or failure over a season until the season ends. For all we know, the WBA could be the catalyst that kicks off a turnaround, we could see improvement over a run of games upcoming. Put it this way, many on here thought Arteta was a dead man walking a few weeks ago, with the goons heading into a relegation battle. Christ, every media outlet was pretty much making the same claim. But a run of 3/4 wins and their confidence is up, the Football more fluid and now we have the same people laughing at their woes claiming they’re now going to be above us at the end of the season.
Start of the season, many were stating that Pep was at the end of his tenure at City, that he wasn’t getting a tune out of his players and they’d need a refresh. Look at them now.
Moyes has been given time to turn around WH’s sketchy form, Wilder at SU looks to have turned a corner. Dyche at Burnley does it regularly. Just when it looks like his players have had enough, he gets them playing again.

But we think JM is incapable of this?

JM is responsible for getting the team back onside, getting them to play again. How he does that I don’t know, if I did I wouldn’t be on here talking about it, I’d be earning millions myself challenging for titles. But you can’t excuse the players in this scenario either. You can’t just listen to a manager like him when you’re winning, then decide he’s talking rubbish when you lose a game. They’re grown men who should be looking at the games they won v the games they lost and see what they themselves have done differently. I can’t accept that JM has told them to sit 2 banks of 4 on the 18 yard line all game, especially when you can hear the coaches telling them not to do that and our talisman is backing that up. So the players need to man up, analyse their own performances, both good and bad, listen to what their manager is telling them and improve.

The goons did it, SU did it, West Ham did it. They kept faith in their managers vision through adversity and came out the other side despite far more losses than we’ve currently suffered. Our lot seem to have binned off any faith since Anfield, despite returning to the game plan v Leeds and winning comfortably. That just highlights the issue, didn’t follow instructions against Fulham, were outplayed, DID follow instructions against Leeds, beat them comfortably. Stopped again in every match since and look like relegation fodder.

It’s really not that difficult a scenario to work out.

 

[hughy]

I said it after the Liverpool game, but I think you're all kidding yourselves if you think Mou's going anywhere before the end of the season (or at absolute least the League Cup final).

We could lose every game between now and then and Levy would probably still see him as our best chance of shit-housing a result in the final.

 

[CrazyHeart]

Which relied almost entirely on two forwards producing the magic, but that's never sustainable for a long period. Especially Son is well-known for being world-class for 2 months before he goes back to mediocrity for 6 weeks.. And repeat. And Kane was always going to get injured at some point.

But it worked, right?

 

[TheTanguy]

But it worked, right?

It did on a couple of occasions yes. Before it inevitably all went to shit.

It's also very predictable and easy to work out for other teams after a while.

 

[CrazyHeart]

It did on a couple of occasions yes.

That's totally harsh man - Jose's also got to do the best with the cards he's been dealt. Just a few weeks ago we were taking down the big fish, enjoying top of the league, called title contenders by every major pundit and now have a cup final to boot. I wouldn't put that down to tactics working on a couple of occasions. We hit a bad patch and injuries to boot and all of a sudden JM was always the wrong man for the job? I respectfully disagree with that assessment.

 

[Ionman34]

Has there been any progress in his one year in terms of playing style or the 8 players he’s brought in? Yes it’s not long but the signs aren’t good where we’re heading

Up until Anfield, yes imo, but I seem to be in the minority that isn’t particularly bothered about how long we have the ball or what our shot quantity was, I was more impressed with how we managed the pitch and how we created high percentage chances than quantity of chances. The City game was a case in point, their possession and shot stats were far higher than ours, but they created very little that was high percentage because we didn’t allow them to. WE DIDN’T ALLOW THEM being the operative point. We didn’t luck out in that game, Lloris barely broke a sweat. The same could be said of the goons, Utd and a number of other games that saw us get to the top of the league on merit.

But all the things they were doing right they’ve now stopped doing for some reason.

JM now has to get them doing those things right again. I will caveat this by saying that he also needs to show more attacking intent, particularly in the 1st half to set the tone. He’s done this at every other club he’s managed, blitz the opposition, get a decent lead, then pick them off from a solid base. I think he knows this, hence the reference to GLC, Reguilon, Kane and a decent Dele as being missed.

So end of the season for me. If he gets those creative players in and we STILL see this shitfest then you can’t defend the indefensible and it’ll be a foregone conclusion. If he turns it around then he’ll have earned the right to bring in players that will take us a step further.

 

[Martinhotspur]

I have been a Spurs fan since 1980. That first half is up there with some of the worst I have seen us play. I can't understand how you can get a group of players to play that shite.

 

[Col_M]

If it’s any consolation I still oddly think we could win Europa and rescue the season, if this was a film where Jose gets redemption that’s what would happen.

I think it's real life unfortunately ,

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Or it’s sacking off the manager before giving him the chance to make things work.

Goon fans wanted Arteta gone a few weeks ago, Brighton fans were rumbling a few weeks ago. West Ham fans were calling for Moyes’ head not so long ago.

Spurs fans wanted Mourinho sacked before he’d started!

Don’t get me wrong, we’re fucking tripe at the moment, but where’s the resume out there that can turn this team into what we want? The fact that the players that are regularly getting pelters on here are the same players that played absolutely tripe for Poch previously, should be telling the story.

I’ll reiterate what I’ve been saying for a while now, the players played the system the way JM wants it played, we control the pitch rather than the ball. Doing that put us top of the league for a number of weeks, and deservedly so. They’ve stopped doing it now for some reason, and that’s damn sure not because they’ve been told to do so.

I can accept that many don’t like the style of Football, to each their own, but the vast majority of the issue here is with the playing staff.

We have VERY ordinary players in key positions, yet even with that the system employed saw us getting excellent results when it was executed well. As soon as those ordinary players stopped executing the system of play it all turned to shit.

Tonight wasn’t about Chelsea sitting back, letting us have the ball saying “go on then, break us down,” they played in a way that HM’s system is designed to nullify and beat when executed properly, this involves playing in joined up groups, funnelling play, cutting off passing lanes and forcing the opposition to play in the areas we want them to. NONE of that happened tonight, nor against Brighton, or Liverpool, or Fulham and we’ve looked shite as a result.

MY point is that the focus is in the wrong area because of the ire towards JM that many have held from day 1. The problem is the players primarily.

JM doesn’t get away Scott free here, but he’s not the primary problem, and no amount of managerial changes will alter that.

they haven’t stopped doing anything. We’ve struggled to progress the ball through the pitch all season even last season. The thing that’s stopped is Kane and Son have not been able to work as many chances themselves or haven’t been as clinical which was always going to happen as their chance conversion rate was ridiculously high. Teams now are getting tight on Kane and not letting him get on the half turn. That’s the only thing that’s changed not players mentality, downing tools or any of them other cliches that people like to throw out.

If you watch any of the games back from this season apart from maybe Man Utd the lack of ability to take the ball under pressure has been in all of them, everyone got influenced by the results, even Man City game we only worked two situations whereas although Man City were toothless that day worked the ball into some very dangerous areas. Their expected goals were nearly 3 I believe it shows that they were able to work the ball into dangerous areas.

some of it is down to the quality of some of the players I agree but when he’s had the chance to play Lo Celso and Ndombele together deeper he hasn’t, he alternated them or subbed one for the other. He has preferred Sissoko/Winks/PEH standing on the toes of the centre backs to give us extra protection and created two separate units where the front 3-4 press sporadically and also have to track back and the deeper unit fill spaces and can’t work the ball out because you can Chuck a blanket over the two centre backs and centre midfielders. If he didn’t have the name and people hadn’t nailed themselves to him so hard that they they can’t backtrack they wouldn’t be saying it’s on the players imo.

 

[sebo_sek]

If that changes and you become the lawmaker, could you please change that, as well as a rule stating that Mike Dean must referee with a trident wedges up his arse at all times?

Cheers

Will be number one on the agenda.

 

[ajspurs]

I said it after the Liverpool game, but I think you're all kidding yourselves if you think Mou's going anywhere before the end of the season (or at absolute least the League Cup final).

We could lose every game between now and then and Levy would probably still see him as our best chance of shit-housing a result in the final.

I'm not so sure really. Hypothetically speaking, If we were to lose the large majority of games from now and end up 15/16th in the table, I don't think it's too far-fetched to suggest he may be well on his way. Plus there are other variables at play, we don't know if the toxicity level between him and the players will just ramp up to a stage that is just simply not workable.

I'm not sure I can see us putting up with performances like yesterday's and Brighton's for the rest of the season. Only hope for him I think is for Kane and Son to combine. If Kane was out for the season he may as well have his bags packed because it looks like he can't get anything out of the team without him.

 

[Ionman34]

they haven’t stopped doing anything. We’ve struggled to progress the ball through the pitch all season even last season. The thing that’s stopped is Kane and Son have not been able to work as many chances themselves or haven’t been as clinical which was always going to happen as their chance conversion rate was ridiculously high. Teams now are getting tight on Kane and not letting him get on the half turn. That’s the only thing that’s changed not players mentality, downing tools or any of them other cliches that people like to throw out.

If you watch any of the games back from this season apart from maybe Man Utd the lack of ability to take the ball under pressure has been in all of them, everyone got influenced by the results, even Man City game we only worked two situations whereas although Man City were toothless that day worked the ball into some very dangerous areas. Their expected goals were nearly 3 I believe it shows that they were able to work the ball into dangerous areas.

some of it is down to the quality of some of the players I agree but when he’s had the chance to play Lo Celso and Ndombele together deeper he hasn’t, he alternated them or subbed one for the other. He has preferred Sissoko/Winks/PEH standing on the toes of the centre backs to give us extra protection and created two separate units where the front 3-4 press sporadically and also have to track back and the deeper unit fill spaces and can’t work the ball out because you can Chuck a blanket over the two centre backs and centre midfielders. If he didn’t have the name and people hadn’t nailed themselves to him so hard that they they can’t backtrack they wouldn’t be saying it’s on the players imo.

Thinly veiled dig there, but so be it.

I really can’t be bothered to constantly repeat myself as you’ve totally ignored what I’ve said in numerous other posts.

I’m not blind to the fact that JM hasn’t got them playing well, but you seem to think the players have no responsibility here, despite the fact that they’ve done it twice now for 2 different managers, both with different philosophies and approaches.

But whatever, what will be will be regardless of our opinions, I’ve offered mine, you have yours. We will see what comes of it. I’ve been wrong before, but only time will tell if that’s the case here.

 

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Thinly veiled dig there, but so be it.

I really can’t be bothered to constantly repeat myself as you’ve totally ignored what I’ve said in numerous other posts.

I’m not blind to the fact that JM hasn’t got them playing well, but you seem to think the players have no responsibility here, despite the fact that they’ve done it twice now for 2 different managers, both with different philosophies and approaches.

But whatever, what will be will be regardless of our opinions, I’ve offered mine, you have yours. We will see what comes of it. I’ve been wrong before, but only time will tell if that’s the case here.

It wasn’t a dig, sorry if it came across that way. If you don’t mind me asking what have you said in numerous other posts that would contradict this one or my reply to it?

of course our players like any other group of players have responsibility but you can’t expect them to be able to do things they’re not capable of. It’s about balance, some of these players that aren’t seen as good enough can still play a part to some extent but you need to put them into teams that are functioning well and have a decent possession game. The balance in the team has been weighted on the more technically limited players that are disciplined rather than players that are comfortable on the ball. Although we are not stacked like Man City on that front we have enough to be so much better on the ball.

The Pochettino and Mourinho situations are completely different and it’s just something people have just decided to run with the last couple of days to take the focus away from how we go about games. These players are still trying to work it’s just so disjointed and rudderless it looks like they’re not working as hard imo anyway

 

[Riandor]

Either DL has to throw money at getting the players JM needs to play the way he wants to play, including workrate and trust, vs DL has to throw money at replacing the manager with an aoppointment that wants to use the players we have, but even then some need replacing regardless.

Whether you like Mourinho or not, its easy to see that this squad is badly imbalanced and needs key upgrades.

 

[cider spurs]

I see a lot of posts talking about average players. I disagree. They are simply asked to play in a way that is beyond them. The manager can do one of two things:

1. Stick to his preferred system regardless of the impossibility of the task
2. Create a system that plays into his players' strengths.

Sadly Jose has opted for the former. Now we did beat United, Arsenal, City with that system, but unlike us, the league has adapted and nullify any threat that we have to offer.

Secondly, the system we have requires the attacking element to basically have a 100% scoring rate, because they will not get more than 2-3 opportunities during a game. That sort of pressure in front of goal would cripple most players, even above average ones.

Agree with some points, but surely Mourinho hasn't instructed the players to be totally static when we're in possession and looking to attack.

Their lack of movement can't even be classed as average, I'd suggest pretty much non existent all to often.

 

[Donki]

I said it after the Liverpool game, but I think you're all kidding yourselves if you think Mou's going anywhere before the end of the season (or at absolute least the League Cup final).

We could lose every game between now and then and Levy would probably still see him as our best chance of shit-housing a result in the final.

I think a lot will depend on how Jose handles it, if Jose wants to go he will make it as absolutely toxic as possible and I don't thing Levy will be as forgiving as Woodwood.

 

[TheRevolution]

One thing I noticed last night is just how much more passing options Chelsea had. So many of our players struggle with actually being on the ball and needing to make a simple pass.

Chelsea had Kovacic, Jorginho, James, Alonso, Mount, Werner, Rudiger and Azpilicueta all as valid passing options, all players who don't collapse when pressed and who can either take a man on or play one touch without giving it away.

We on the other hand had NDombele, Hojbjerg, Bergwijn and Alderweireld as the only players with those qualities.

I think this is the big, big issue with the squad, it's why our system collapsed under Pochettino in his last 2 seasons. We couldn't string 2 passes together because so many players lack that ability. I love Son so much but he is not that type of player, he is a luxury player, which is why we rely so heavily on the likes of Kane and Regulion being fit to bring those qualities to the squad.

Add to that the negative style that we're playing and its the perfect concoction for disaster.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Monkey boy]

Up until Anfield, yes imo, but I seem to be in the minority that isn’t particularly bothered about how long we have the ball or what our shot quantity was, I was more impressed with how we managed the pitch and how we created high percentage chances than quantity of chances. The City game was a case in point, their possession and shot stats were far higher than ours, but they created very little that was high percentage because we didn’t allow them to. WE DIDN’T ALLOW THEM being the operative point. We didn’t luck out in that game, Lloris barely broke a sweat. The same could be said of the goons, Utd and a number of other games that saw us get to the top of the league on merit.

But all the things they were doing right they’ve now stopped doing for some reason.

JM now has to get them doing those things right again. I will caveat this by saying that he also needs to show more attacking intent, particularly in the 1st half to set the tone. He’s done this at every other club he’s managed, blitz the opposition, get a decent lead, then pick them off from a solid base. I think he knows this, hence the reference to GLC, Reguilon, Kane and a decent Dele as being missed.

So end of the season for me. If he gets those creative players in and we STILL see this shitfest then you can’t defend the indefensible and it’ll be a foregone conclusion. If he turns it around then he’ll have earned the right to bring in players that will take us a step further.

Great post. I feel like im swaying back and forth like a pendulum at the moment with do i want him to stay or go and also who i think is to blame (80% the players in my eyes). I think the league season is a write off from this point on so yeah im willing to give him until the end of the season to try things out, bin off the usual suspects that cost us game after game and those that shirk responsibility and who knows maybe find us an identity again whilst you never know winning one of those shiny things we've been hearing about.

However if from this point on until the end of the season he persists with the idiots like Sissoko, Dier, Lucas, Davies etc. and shows no real desire to start playing better football then he can pack his bags and get the hell out of here whilst taking his cone boy Sacramento with him.

 

[sebo_sek]

Agree with some points, but surely Mourinho hasn't instructed the players to be totally static when we're in possession and looking to attack.

Their lack of movement can't even be classed as average, I'd suggest pretty much non existent all to often.

But it happens every game now, which is even worse for him if it's not intended. That means that either he doesn't know how to fix it, or is being ignored by the players. Either way it's rather bleak for him.

 

[razzmaster]

Two managers on the bounce? Interesting.

After Leicester won the league, they had such a bad season that Ranieri was sacked.

Claude Public and Craig Shakespeare then came in and were also sacked.

Brendan Rodgers seems to be doing ok with a lot of the same players.

Not too dissimilar to our situation and shows just what a good manager can do with a team of underachieving individuals.

(Edited because I forgot about Puel)