General feeling moving in the right direction or way off?

[Main Man]

Yeah i find surprising that some see similarities between the systems of AVB and Pochettino. Biggest difference for me is AVB would always set his team up not be defeated, thats why we hardly ever scored in the first half under him. Pochettino sets his team up to go out and win from the start, which is huge mentality shift.

A mentality shift which isn't currently as productive or effective...

That isn't opinion, that is fact based on results. But seemingly people (@CheeseGromit) can't accept this.

That is your prerogative.

I think there are three massive similarities between the systems:

• their formation in essence are the same and both favour the inverted winger - some subtle differences do exist though I agree
• both formations/systems leave our striker incredibly isolated more often than not
• both rely on individual brilliance for goals (although Poch is maybe moving away from this)

 

[sebcole]

For me we are ebbing out of the era of wrongness. All started when we had to seemingly sell Bale, a superstar we had crafted carefully for 3/4 seasons, only having the size of his success make us victims to losing him.

I don't know why Levy felt so much pressure to spend it all at once, but we did, along side new coaching and scouting operations - which led us to 3 seasons of disappointment. We were not bad by any means, since we were always in the running for the elite European competition, but we never kicked on from places we had been before, lingering for too long perhaps.

Now we start again, with the detritus of that spell, but now with a new set up promoting our home grown youth in our shiny new training facilities. I like the attitude of this epoch. For a while we have been developing into a team who can rescue points late on, whereas the Spurs of the 90s would be on the conceding side.

The best players we have now have come mainly from our developed ones, Lloris and Eriksen aside. This to me, means we are heading in the right direction, because with this approach we have more control and more resources to meddle with.

We may well have some good resources come to us with the sale of a few of those players who still can't make the grade or fit in; and start and go again...

 

[lukespurs7]

Good performance again yesterday especially with the ball, some shaky defending but QPR at home are quite difficult to play against and the pitch is so small chances are created very quickly.

Loving the way we are playing at the moment and once we were 2-0 up we had a spell for about 15-20 minutes where we absolutely dominated them they barely touched the ball we were a class above, it was a joy to watch and great atmosphere.

But then as usual we let in a goal, it was actually a fairly decent one as it happens but still avoidable.
I think the longer we keep this team together the less this should happen and we will stop making life so hard for ourselves. That having said another good performance and result yes Kane is scoring a lot at the moment and it is vital we get a decent back-up for him in the summer but I don't think i've seen us play together as a team so well for many years to be honest.

COYS. Don't think we'll get 4th but just enjoying the ride and football we are playing at the moment, very well done potch and the lads.

 

[CheeseGromit]

Can anybody remember specifically the back four we had when A


A mentality shift which isn't currently as productive or effective...

That isn't opinion, that is fact based on results. But seemingly people (@CheeseGromit) can't accept this.

That is your prerogative.

I think there are three massive similarities between the systems:

• their formation in essence are the same and both favour the inverted winger - some subtle differences do exist though I agree
• both formations/systems leave our striker incredibly isolated more often than not
• both rely on individual brilliance for goals (although Poch is maybe moving away from this)

I dont accept what is a very simple assertion. One season over another is not a direct comparison for anybody. Goal posts change; Team strength; injuries form, run of fixtures. It is trying to play football on paper or is it FM and Opta now.

As they say statistics statistics and damned lies Something plucked to suit a point

it isnt really worth a discussion with you

 

[Main Man]

I dont accept what is a very simple assertion. One season over another is not a direct comparison for anybody. Goal posts change; Team strength; injuries form, run of fixtures. It is trying to play football on paper or is it FM and Opta now.

As they say statistics statistics and damned lies Something plucked to suit a point

it isnt really worth a discussion with you

That really is a cowardly and disrespectful response.

You are right, comparing one season's finish to another is not necessarily accurate. However, looking at back to back 38 game seasons I think our is a fair way to monitor progress. All three of our previous seasons included a change of manager, whilst the number of games played are all incredibly similar too (although spread amongst the competitions a little differently)

If our team strength has diminished that is ultimately down to the manager and the choices he has made. In terms of injuries - and long may it continue - I have not known an injury free season like this in my lifetime. The fixture list can work one way or another, but I think only the Carling Cup final and European games side have potentially damaged us this season. Although the lack of major changes would suggest that in reality it wasn't really an issue? Or Poch did Poch not utilise his squad correctly? Playing on a Sunday after Europe is no different to previous seasons, and our fixtures after Europe in the last two seasons were certainly harder than the ones we had this. You also have to remember we progressed much further in Europe in the past two seasons too...

And to my knowledge, the regulations regarding goal posts remain the same.

But if where you finish in the League isn't the ultimate barometer of success - and I can accept there are other factors to consider - what is?

For me, League standing considering Cup performances is the best way to determine how well a season has gone. But I am more than willing to look at it another way if you can suggest a way of doing so?

Maybe then I can share your optimism, because I can assure you I wish I did.

Nobody wants this club to succeed more than me.

COYS

 

[Cravenspurs]

You've articulated my thoughts very well. What Poch has done with a new side, to get them playing so well when it is clear only 8/9 are up to it, is remarkable. He doesn't rrust our squad, neither do I but I'm hopeful we can shift a few, promote from within and, with a couple of signing, next year Poch could have a squad, rather than a side, he can work with.

Exciting time, our average outfield age was 23. Truly remarkable, keep this squad together (please, Baldy, please) and we could be in for an exciting 5-10 years.

This is very important to point out. There are a couple that could buy into the system, but it is pretty amazing how many have already done so.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I keep reading this nonsense and it is all a complete myth...

Poch and AVBs system are almost identical, and I think it is a flip of a coin as to who is more stubborn. The similarities between the two are massive.

This is the bit that's a myth. They use a similar formation. Their systems are very different.

AVB prioritises patient possession and 'provoking' the opposition with the ball, in an attempt to get one of them to commit himself and then create an opening through a mistake. The result, in English football at least, was extremely incident-free football, with players clearly being told not to take risks or initiatives when approaching the opposition penalty box. Attacks would be sleep-inducingly slow-moving, because any change of pace that might risk losing possession was discouraged. In practice, with the players we had in the squad, it created incredibly boring football, with no change-of-pace to the attack, few good quality chances created and too many low-percentage shots from long range. It worked OK most of the time when we had a player of Bale's pace and quality creating the change-of-pace and causing havoc, but once he was gone, everything slowed down to a crawl and the football was numbingly frustrating to watch. One or even two defensive midfielders stayed back in position and concentrated on protecting the defence. Very rarely did our attackers even try to get behind the opposition's defensive line to deliver a cross. Through balls inevitably bounced off a defender.

Pochettino's use of the same formation is based on pressing the opposition in possession to win the ball high up the pitch. The fullbacks play further forward more often than they did under AVB and the front three behind the striker are supposed to rotate positions when in possession to pull the opposition defence out of shape. Most importantly - and this part visibly took several months before Pochettino could persuade or bully the players into giving up AVB's practices - there is often a change of pace as our attack approaches the box, with through balls, one-twos and crosses being preferred to the interminable recycling of possession across the edge of the penalty box, waiting for a defensive error that never comes. Positions are more fluid all over the pitch, passes are shorter and faster and move the ball forward much more quickly (I reckon that's what got Mason into the team). The two deeper-lying midfielders and even the central defenders are more at liberty to make forward runs and join in the attack.

The only things the two systems have in common are a basic 4-2-3-1 formation with inverted wingers and the part-time employment of a high defensive line.

 

[Main Man]

few good quality chances created and too many low-percentage shots from long range. It worked OK most of the time when we had a player of Bale's pace and quality creating the change-of-pace and causing havoc, but once he was gone, everything slowed down to a crawl and the football was numbingly frustrating to watch. Very rarely occasion did our attackers even try to get behind the opposition's defensive line to deliver a cross.

I think you make a lot of very valid points but I think the above is a bit of a contradiction to the truth. In fact, a lot.

I very rarely see us beyond the defensive back line, nor do I ever see quality crosses. You can highlight individual moments (like the weekend) but in general, I don't see either of the above any more now than I did at the start of last season. Stats would back that up also, it was actually Sherwood who triumphed in both these aspects.

Bale was ultimately the key weapon in AVBs system, but like AVBs system Poch leaves his lone striker incredibly isolated for the majority of the time. The difference this season (eventually) is we have a striker who can replicate what Bale did. Why is Poch not labelled with the one man team notion / papering over the cracks etc?

Before Kane was introduced to the team, we were as ponderous, slow and mind numbingly dull as were under AVB post Bale - and when he doesn't perform we still are. QPR result aside (and I think it is fair to disregard that result because they were so poor) it took until January before we scored more goals at home than games played. What does that remind you of? Is that an indictment of what you are suggesting?

I don't think the true impact of what Harry Kane has done to this team (amongst others) has been fully appreciated by the majority. Would you be as complimentary of this 'new' system with Ade or Soldado upfront - or where you rather when we weren't testing Liverpool, West Brom, Southampton, Newcastle, Stoke, Everton and Palace at home?

Kane is the difference, not Poch and his adaptation of the AVB way in my opinion. And the stats - manipulated as they may - back that up too.

 

[dricha1]

I think you make a lot of very valid points but I think the above is a bit of a contradiction to the truth. In fact, a lot.

I very rarely see us beyond the defensive back line, nor do I ever see quality crosses. You can highlight individual moments (like the weekend) but in general, I don't see either of the above any more now than I did at the start of last season. Stats would back that up also, it was actually Sherwood who triumphed in both these aspects.

Bale was ultimately the key weapon in AVBs system, but like AVBs system Poch leaves his lone striker incredibly isolated for the majority of the time. The difference this season (eventually) is we have a striker who can replicate what Bale did. Why is Poch not labelled with the one man team notion / papering over the cracks etc?

Before Kane was introduced to the team, we were as ponderous, slow and mind numbingly dull as were under AVB post Bale. QPR result aside (and I think it is fair to disregard that result because they were so poor) it took until January before we scored more goals at home than games played. What does that remind you of?

I don't think the true impact of what Harry Kane has done to this team (amongst others) has been fully appreciated by the majority. Would you be as complimentary of the system with Ade and Soldado upfront - or where you rather when we weren't testing Liverpool, West Brom, Southampton, Newcastle, Stoke, Everton and Palace at home?

Kane is the difference, not Poch and his adaptation of the AVB way in my opinion.

I think you do Poch a disservice. The team spirit. Fitness and work ethic is beyond anything we've had at Spurs for years. I also think he has improved some players games including Eriksen, Rose, Bentaleb, Dembele and Kane.

Whatever happened between Ade, Kaboul and Capoue, the decision Poch made, or subsequent non-selection hasn't hindered the team, in-fact it was probably the turning point. Kane is having an exceptional season, but there is more to this team than Harry Kane.

 

[scat1620]

I think you make a lot of very valid points but I think the above is a bit of a contradiction to the truth. In fact, a lot.

I very rarely see us beyond the defensive back line, nor do I ever see quality crosses. You can highlight individual moments (like the weekend) but in general, I don't see either of the above any more now than I did at the start of last season. Stats would back that up also, it was actually Sherwood who triumphed in both these aspects.

Bale was ultimately the key weapon in AVBs system, but like AVBs system Poch leaves his lone striker incredibly isolated for the majority of the time. The difference this season (eventually) is we have a striker who can replicate what Bale did. Why is Poch not labelled with the one man team notion / papering over the cracks etc?

Before Kane was introduced to the team, we were as ponderous, slow and mind numbingly dull as were under AVB post Bale - and when he doesn't perform we still are. QPR result aside (and I think it is fair to disregard that result because they were so poor) it took until January before we scored more goals at home than games played. What does that remind you of? Is that an indictment of what you are suggesting?

I don't think the true impact of what Harry Kane has done to this team (amongst others) has been fully appreciated by the majority. Would you be as complimentary of this 'new' system with Ade or Soldado upfront - or where you rather when we weren't testing Liverpool, West Brom, Southampton, Newcastle, Stoke, Everton and Palace at home?

Kane is the difference, not Poch and his adaptation of the AVB way in my opinion. And the stats - manipulated as they may - back that up too.

Don't necessarily agree with your conclusions (as even leaving Kane aside I think that Pochettino is trying to win games whereas AVB was trying not to lose them) but that was a coherent and well constructed argument. Good stuff.

 

[Main Man]

I think you do Poch a disservice. The team spirit. Fitness and work ethic is beyond anything we've had at Spurs for years. I also think he has improved some players games including Eriksen, Rose, Bentaleb, Dembele and Kane.

Whatever happened between Ade, Kaboul and Capoue, the decision Poch made, or subsequent non-selection hasn't hindered the team, in-fact it was probably the turning point. Kane is having an exceptional season, but there is more to this team than Harry Kane.

In terms of team spirit and fitness, the players were making the exact same comments under AVB as they do now (until right at the end of AVB that is). The difference then was we didn't have the players who showed their fitness in the visible way some of ours do now.

The players you have listed have all improved in some way, but I think it is difficult to specifically state it is Poch's influence over simply gaining more experience by playing more games and settling in. Just as it difficult for me to argue vice versa in fairness.

Rose aside - who is still defensively pretty poor - I would say our whole defence has regressed since AVB left. Who is responsible for that? None more so than the best defender in the League under AVB.

 

[lukespurs7]

I think you make a lot of very valid points but I think the above is a bit of a contradiction to the truth. In fact, a lot.

I very rarely see us beyond the defensive back line, nor do I ever see quality crosses. You can highlight individual moments (like the weekend) but in general, I don't see either of the above any more now than I did at the start of last season. Stats would back that up also, it was actually Sherwood who triumphed in both these aspects.

Bale was ultimately the key weapon in AVBs system, but like AVBs system Poch leaves his lone striker incredibly isolated for the majority of the time. The difference this season (eventually) is we have a striker who can replicate what Bale did. Why is Poch not labelled with the one man team notion / papering over the cracks etc?

Before Kane was introduced to the team, we were as ponderous, slow and mind numbingly dull as were under AVB post Bale - and when he doesn't perform we still are. QPR result aside (and I think it is fair to disregard that result because they were so poor) it took until January before we scored more goals at home than games played. What does that remind you of? Is that an indictment of what you are suggesting?

I don't think the true impact of what Harry Kane has done to this team (amongst others) has been fully appreciated by the majority. Would you be as complimentary of this 'new' system with Ade or Soldado upfront - or where you rather when we weren't testing Liverpool, West Brom, Southampton, Newcastle, Stoke, Everton and Palace at home?

Kane is the difference, not Poch and his adaptation of the AVB way in my opinion. And the stats - manipulated as they may - back that up too.

Swansea at home? ...

I think you've underestimated how much an effect Potch has had, Chadli and Eriksen have both nearly got 10 league goals each the team is playing as a team yes Kane is scoring but that's the strikers job.

Take home to Arsenal for example yes he got both goals but we battered them for 90 mins so so different from AVB days mate!

The start of the season I admit we were a bit slow and toothless but it's not just Kane coming into the team that's helped us, we've grown more as a team and Bentaleb and Mason have done a great job too.

COYS

 

[dricha1]

In terms of team spirit and fitness, the players were making the exact same comments under AVB as they do now (until right at the end of AVB that is). The difference then was we didn't have the players who showed their fitness in the visible way some of ours do now.

The players you have listed have all improved in some way, but I think it is difficult to specifically state it is Poch's influence over simply gaining more experience by playing more games and settling in. Just as it difficult for me to argue vice versa in fairness.

Rose aside - who is still defensively pretty poor - I would say our whole defence has regressed since AVB left. Who is responsible for that? None more so than the best defender in the League under AVB.

The main difference between Poch and AVB is tempo. We play to a higher tempo now. This was never going to happen from the start as Poch had to work out which players could play this way.

At the start of the season there was lots of changes to the PL starting XI which doesn't help consistency. Remember Vertonghen was only playing in the cups at the start of the season, Dembele also had limited performances.

This was Poch working out his best team, or squad of 18 match players. The epiphany was the Stoke game. Since then I'd say the match day 18 and first XI has had very little change match to match all in spite of the number of matches being played. Yes this coincided with Kane joining the PL team, but it also coincided with the removal of Kaboul, Ade, Capoue and to a lesser extent Lennon from the first team. To say the upturn is down to Kane disregards some of the other players who've contributed and Poch being able to identify the need, and have the flexibility to change.

 

[Main Man]

To say the upturn is down to Kane disregards some of the other players who've contributed and Poch being able to identify the need, and have the flexibility to change.

Maybe it does disregard others, but equally the same should be said when we were a one man team despite the contributions of Dempsey, Siggy and even Paulinho got quite a few goals. The difference those names aren't as popular or glamourous as Eriksend and Chadli etc.

Poch identified the need three months later than every supporter, and I personally think that is inexcusable. But I am prepared to forgive him assuming he corrects what is neccessary come the summer.

Poch has definitely not shown any flexibility either, not sure how you can say he has.

Tactically he is even more stubborn than AVB and I am not sure there is a flexibility to change - not that I am saying either are a bad thing - his substitutions are very, very predictable also.

I can't think of one game this season where Poch has tactically surprised me or the opposition. Can you? Is there a game he has changed things tactically and won us a game erc? I think the way we play is incredibly predictable and obvious, but again I am not saying this is neccessarily a criticism - but it was one aimed at previous managers who showed more flexibility than Poch.

 

[Main Man]

The main difference between Poch and AVB is tempo. We play to a higher tempo now. This was never going to happen from the start as Poch had to work out which players could play this way. At the start of the season there was lots of changes to the PL starting XI which doesn't help consistency.

This is no excuse imo.

I only see our players play once a week and it didn't take me the best part of six months to come to the same conclusions Poch did.

And people say we have went through a lot of changes but only Mason, Kane and the then injured Walker have been brought in to his original team - that is hardly a major overhaul is it?

Mason would have been the team straight away too if it wasn't for his injury.

 

[dricha1]

We

This is no excuse imo.

I only see our players play once a week and it didn't take me the best part of six months to come to the same conclusions Poch did.

And people say we have went through a lot of changes but only Mason, Kane and the then injured Walker have been brought in to his original team - that is hardly a major overhaul is it?

Mason would have been the team straight away too if it wasn't for his injury.

We will have to agree to disagree in this one.

You must be comparing the current set-up to when we were ripping up the league, winning everything and playing swashbuckling football.

I see reasons to be positive with the way the club is going and believe (maybe naively) that we are heading in the right direction.

 

[CheeseGromit]

That really is a cowardly and disrespectful response.

You are right, comparing one season's finish to another is not necessarily accurate. However, looking at back to back 38 game seasons I think our is a fair way to monitor progress. All three of our previous seasons included a change of manager, whilst the number of games played are all incredibly similar too (although spread amongst the competitions a little differently)

If our team strength has diminished that is ultimately down to the manager and the choices he has made. In terms of injuries - and long may it continue - I have not known an injury free season like this in my lifetime. The fixture list can work one way or another, but I think only the Carling Cup final and European games side have potentially damaged us this season. Although the lack of major changes would suggest that in reality it wasn't really an issue? Or Poch did Poch not utilise his squad correctly? Playing on a Sunday after Europe is no different to previous seasons, and our fixtures after Europe in the last two seasons were certainly harder than the ones we had this. You also have to remember we progressed much further in Europe in the past two seasons too...

And to my knowledge, the regulations regarding goal posts remain the same.

But if where you finish in the League isn't the ultimate barometer of success - and I can accept there are other factors to consider - what is?

For me, League standing considering Cup performances is the best way to determine how well a season has gone. But I am more than willing to look at it another way if you can suggest a way of doing so?

Maybe then I can share your optimism, because I can assure you I wish I did.

Nobody wants this club to succeed more than me.

COYS

It is neither cowardly and or disrespectful
That department belongs to you on you opening words in the first reply and the negs you apply to anybody whpo doesnt agree

You were not prepared for anybody to have a different view point to yours The stas were the way to judge it
Clearly in the above you accepted that there maybe other factors taken into consideration

For what it is worth I dont agree it is only ultimately down to the manager

I do not see the point in debating anything with any body when they start off being rude

Clearly from other posts in teh thread others dont agree either

i shall just igmore any further contribution in this thread and any other as amark of the importance I give it

EDIT
PS
It is no longer about the content of the posts

 

[Main Man]

It is neither cowardly and or disrespectful
That department belongs to you on you opening words in the first reply and the negs you apply to anybody whpo doesnt agree

You were not prepared for anybody to have a different view point to yours The stas were the way to judge it
Clearly in the above you accepted that there maybe other factors taken into consideration

For what it is worth I dont agree it is only ultimately down to the manager

I do not see the point in debating anything with any body when they start off being rude

Clearly from other posts in teh thread others dont agree either

i shall just igmore any further contribution in this thread and any other as amark of the importance I give it

EDIT
PS
It is no longer about the content of the posts

I very rarely use the negative ratings. The 'creative' rating is as negative I get on the most part.

I am not sure how I have been rude to you, but apologies if I have.

I asked how else to judge success and progression but you have failed to provide an answer, so I can't possibly understand your way of thinking.

Up the Spurs!

 

[CheeseGromit]

I very rarely use the negative ratings. The 'creative' rating is as negative I get on the most part.

I am not sure how I have been rude to you, but apologies if I have.

I asked how else to judge success and progression but you have failed to provide an answer, so I can't possibly understand your way of thinking.

Up the Spurs!

i accept that we may have seen things differently No apology needed

May we have more interesting debates in future