Defensive Coach

[IGSpur]

You are over-complicating a simple fact. We are piss poor at defending and the coach who happens to be an ex-International defender is at a loss on how to fix the problem. That is little to do with the players we have but the stupidity of trying the same thing over and over again. That's the only thing that is "entirely too complex" about this coaches tactics and system.

I could pick four geezers from down the street from where i live who could put in a good defensive record the group stages of the EL. Bloody hell you will have to come up with something a little more creative than that one.

Wasn't Verts, Rose and Walker among the poor souls that Chelsea, Liverpool and Man Citeh ran over during AVB's and Sherwood reign?

There are various things wrong with these two posts that @DaSpurs has already addressed, but there are some more.

I assume the comment about some blokes down the park was tongue in cheek otherwise you would be playing for Spurs and not commenting on those actually playing for us. Your examples above are also poor. Assuming you are talking about the same matches.

When we lost 4-0 to Chelsea under Sherwood the defense was Naughton Dawson Kaboul Vertonghen, only one of those is still here and he played in his weaker position. We also conceded 3 goals after Kaboul got sent off.

When we lost 0-5 to Liverpool before AVB got sacked our defense was Walker, Capoue, Dawson, Naughton and we conceded 3 goals after Paulinho got sent off. Only one of our current defenders played in that game. The rest of the defense was made up of a RB and LB and a DM at CB.

When we lost 6-0 to Man City the very next game our defense was Walker, Dawson, Kaboul, Vertonghen. Vertonghen being played out of position again. Not one of our current playing players featured at CB during any of those games and one of our current CBs was played out of position in the two games he featured. Walker featured in 2 and ye if I recall correclty he had a massive brainfart at Liverpool but we'' come onto that later.

So our good defensive run was ended but 2 games where players were out of position and also playing with 10 men. They are not the best example of not being good enough to play in our defense. Through Cannavaro next to Capoue and Naughton at LB against 10 men and we will most likely still lose. Just upgrading defenders isn't going to make us better. As peopel have mentioned these same players had the best defensive record in the league including the conceding the least shots per game so they can defend.

You also said that the coach is at a loss to fix the problem, yet we have seen that with Southampton and Espanyol his same system worked and conceded few goals so clearly he knows how to fix the problem but he is just struggling as he doesn't have the players in the other areas of the pitch he needs.

Considering also that your observations are right that the defense is so often improperly positioned, too far forward, and slow in getting beaten in behind, I'd say the common theme there is a high line. Are the midfield not shielding them appropriately? I would say they are, as evidenced by the fact Mason is winning 2.47 tackles a game, while as the closest among Paulinho, Dembele, and Capoue from last year won 2.07 tackles per game. So its clear the midfield is at least trying to prevent the problem.

This leaves us with the manager and/or the system. As the manager has not changed his system whatsoever all season, I would argue we could almost say they're one and the same (it's also easier to rule out the manager since he hasn't really been able to mold the squad into one he wants). Therefore, I think it's the system, which includes such an absurdly high line and relies on strong defending from the midfield and forwards. As our defenders know what they're doing as evidenced by last season, I think it's the defending from the front which is the problem, which is consequently allowing our defenders to be exposed in behind, thereby forcing them to constantly be running down plays from behind, making their mistakes look all the worse, and appearing to be improperly positioned.

Where I disagree with DaSpurs. is that I do not believe that the high line is the issue. AVB was famous/infamous for his use of the high line which helped contribute to our excellent defensive record and this is a defesnse with Dawson in it who is known for his lack of pace. The players know how to play the high line and are actually quite good at catch players off side.

I do not think our midfield is the problem either but our inability to hold the ball along the front 4 which results in us getting countered. The reason this never really happened under AVB is because whereas Poch encourages through balls and direct play, I believe AVB would rather take long shots than try through balls around the box to negate the chance of us being countered. We were taking so many more shots out the box. If a shot misses it goals for a goal kick or into the keepers hands so people can get back into position. Shots outside the box I bet are significantly less under Poch and attempted through balls are probably higher.

When we lose the ball we are so high up the pitch, especially the full backs who are meant to support the attack, that we end up scrambling back concede. People blame the fullbacks for not trying to track back enough or being out of position but I don't know people are expecting when one minute they are making a run in behind to stertch the defense the next the balls been intercepted and they are out of position. While I have spoken about why I don't think the defense is a problem here I also mentioned why I don't believe it is the midfield who o are the problem here http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/nabil-bentaleb.105149/page-98

So we know Poch's system has previously worked for other teams. We know the same defenders swap Dawson for Dier have been able to keep an impressive defensive record. We know if you read my other post the midfield isn't the issue, so for me that leaves the attackers.

Now back to Walker. The only defender I would potentially sell in the summer is Walker. I actually like Walker he seems like he is a really good squad player, clearly cares for our squad and tries really hard. He also has decent ability and is actually a good 'defender'. I think his positioning is decent and I don't think many people get passed him. However, since he has replaced Corluka (who is the best RB I've seen for us) his crossing, decision making, and attacking awareness has been poor and still has not improved. His dribbling is good but he can never use his pace or dribbling to his advantage. He will rarely put in a good cross or he will over hit a pass or miscontrol a ball at a vital moment.

The other issue i have with him is I believe he thinks he is better than he is which results in him overplaying. I have never in my life seen a defender head the ball back to his own goal despite knowing there is a at least one opposition player between him and the keeper. He has done this twice. He also makes ridiculous square passes across out back line, which are so close to being intercepted or trying to let the ball run out of play and getting it poached oh and trying a random flick that loses possession. He has too many mistakes in him. One of his best games this season was when he actually underplayed everything and did the basics including getting to the byline and passing the ball to someone who could do something (West Ham maybe?) but those are rare.

I think I am very supportive and patient with our players, and I understand he has been injured but despite our improvement in results since his return, which I believe is more due to balance he provides with his pace rather than his actual ability, I still believe Naughton actually looked better than him at RB this season. Additionally I know some people will say he is injured and will get back to form, but again even when he was at his best he still has had these faults. Does anyone actually think he has ever been good at crossing a ball or picking out a run?

I wouldn't mind if we kept him but the way Rose has improved so much this season in attack especially has really shown Walker up, I don't think Walker has improved at all in terms of final ball since he has joined us. If I was an opposition manager and Walker had the ball I would tell my team to stand off and cover the central areas and not to engage, as 9 times out of 10 he would pick the wrong option. Sounds harsh and I don't like being this harsh but it's what I honestly would do. Here's one for you Danny Rose has contributed to goals 7 times this season goals or assists from open play. I can only recall his goal against Arsenal but I'd be surprised if Walker has contributed more than a combined 10 goals/assists since he has been a regular for us. I can't find the stats and I may be well off but nothing comes to mind.

I don't mind if he stays and I still support him and enjoy having him play for us but it is an area we can improve on. Not only would someone pay heavily for Walker, and he may go on and be great elsewhere, but between Fredericks and Yedlin not to mention one of the most talented young fullbacks around in KWP we would have more than enough to sufficiently replace/cover him. His money(and wages) could go some way to bringing in a top top attacking player, like a Depay or simply go straight towards the stadium.

 

[DaSpurs]

There are various things wrong with these two posts that @DaSpursWhere I disagree with DaSpurs. is that I do not believe that the high line is the issue. AVB was famous/infamous for his use of the high line which helped contribute to our excellent defensive record and this is a defesnse with Dawson in it who is known for his lack of pace. The players know how to play the high line and are actually quite good at catch players off side.

I do not think our midfield is the problem either but our inability to hold the ball along the front 4 which results in us getting countered. The reason this never really happened under AVB is because whereas Poch encourages through balls and direct play, I believe AVB would rather take long shots than try through balls around the box to negate the chance of us being countered. We were taking so many more shots out the box. If a shot misses it goals for a goal kick or into the keepers hands so people can get back into position. Shots outside the box I bet are significantly less under Poch and attempted through balls are probably higher.

When we lose the ball we are so high up the pitch, especially the full backs who are meant to support the attack, that we end up scrambling back concede. People blame the fullbacks for not trying to track back enough or being out of position but I don't know people are expecting when one minute they are making a run in behind to stertch the defense the next the balls been intercepted and they are out of position. While I have spoken about why I don't think the defense is a problem here I also mentioned why I don't believe it is the midfield who o are the problem here http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/nabil-bentaleb.105149/page-98

So we know Poch's system has previously worked for other teams. We know the same defenders swap Dawson for Dier have been able to keep an impressive defensive record. We know if you read my other post the midfield isn't the issue, so for me that leaves the attackers.

Actually, we're in agreement. I don't think it is the high line specifically which is the problem, I think it exacerbates the problem.

It is the combination of the super high press, high back line, double pivot midfield, and a lack of pace and induction of pegging back of the opposition which is the formula for our problem. And I agree, the most causative factor there is among the attackers. They lack pace, they lack the ability to dribble into and through tight spaces, lack shooting ability from range, and lack flat out aggression. Therefore, this makes them into too easy to defend against as they have no piercing ability whatsoever, which serves to a) drive the fullbacks higher to provide support by trying to get around and stretch out a stalled and collapsed forward progression, and b) induce us to lose the ball more too easily and more often as you correctly point out. So then, we have not only our fullbacks up the pitch in their intent to support, but those same lacking-in-pace attackers aren't getting to the ball-winner in time to close him down upon transition of possession (one of the core tenets of the high press), and we've thereby made it entirely too easy for opposition sides to play in behind us, hence why we're scrambling back to try and defend (as you correctly point out).

It is imperative we get some pace in this upcoming window in the attacking positions so that we are not so easy to collapse in front of, and so that we can establish a more successful quick press, as the whole point of the press is to win back the ball as quickly as possible.

But anyway, I believe we agree in truth. I don't think it's the high line alone that's the problem, I think it's the system as a whole with the squad that we have which is the problem, as our front line is just simply not quick enough to fulfill the requirements of the system.

 

[eViL]

Vertonghen is the problem.

Not enough desire. Doesn't take responsibility to organise the defence.

I'd be looking to cash in this summer.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

There are various things wrong with these two posts that @DaSpurs has already addressed, but there are some more.

I assume the comment about some blokes down the park was tongue in cheek otherwise you would be playing for Spurs and not commenting on those actually playing for us. Your examples above are also poor. Assuming you are talking about the same matches.

When we lost 4-0 to Chelsea under Sherwood the defense was Naughton Dawson Kaboul Vertonghen, only one of those is still here and he played in his weaker position. We also conceded 3 goals after Kaboul got sent off.

When we lost 0-5 to Liverpool before AVB got sacked our defense was Walker, Capoue, Dawson, Naughton and we conceded 3 goals after Paulinho got sent off. Only one of our current defenders played in that game. The rest of the defense was made up of a RB and LB and a DM at CB.

When we lost 6-0 to Man City the very next game our defense was Walker, Dawson, Kaboul, Vertonghen. Vertonghen being played out of position again. Not one of our current playing players featured at CB during any of those games and one of our current CBs was played out of position in the two games he featured. Walker featured in 2 and ye if I recall correclty he had a massive brainfart at Liverpool but we'' come onto that later.

So our good defensive run was ended but 2 games where players were out of position and also playing with 10 men. They are not the best example of not being good enough to play in our defense. Through Cannavaro next to Capoue and Naughton at LB against 10 men and we will most likely still lose. Just upgrading defenders isn't going to make us better. As peopel have mentioned these same players had the best defensive record in the league including the conceding the least shots per game so they can defend.

You also said that the coach is at a loss to fix the problem, yet we have seen that with Southampton and Espanyol his same system worked and conceded few goals so clearly he knows how to fix the problem but he is just struggling as he doesn't have the players in the other areas of the pitch he needs.



Where I disagree with DaSpurs. is that I do not believe that the high line is the issue. AVB was famous/infamous for his use of the high line which helped contribute to our excellent defensive record and this is a defesnse with Dawson in it who is known for his lack of pace. The players know how to play the high line and are actually quite good at catch players off side.

I do not think our midfield is the problem either but our inability to hold the ball along the front 4 which results in us getting countered. The reason this never really happened under AVB is because whereas Poch encourages through balls and direct play, I believe AVB would rather take long shots than try through balls around the box to negate the chance of us being countered. We were taking so many more shots out the box. If a shot misses it goals for a goal kick or into the keepers hands so people can get back into position. Shots outside the box I bet are significantly less under Poch and attempted through balls are probably higher.

When we lose the ball we are so high up the pitch, especially the full backs who are meant to support the attack, that we end up scrambling back concede. People blame the fullbacks for not trying to track back enough or being out of position but I don't know people are expecting when one minute they are making a run in behind to stertch the defense the next the balls been intercepted and they are out of position. While I have spoken about why I don't think the defense is a problem here I also mentioned why I don't believe it is the midfield who o are the problem here http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/nabil-bentaleb.105149/page-98

So we know Poch's system has previously worked for other teams. We know the same defenders swap Dawson for Dier have been able to keep an impressive defensive record. We know if you read my other post the midfield isn't the issue, so for me that leaves the attackers.

Now back to Walker. The only defender I would potentially sell in the summer is Walker. I actually like Walker he seems like he is a really good squad player, clearly cares for our squad and tries really hard. He also has decent ability and is actually a good 'defender'. I think his positioning is decent and I don't think many people get passed him. However, since he has replaced Corluka (who is the best RB I've seen for us) his crossing, decision making, and attacking awareness has been poor and still has not improved. His dribbling is good but he can never use his pace or dribbling to his advantage. He will rarely put in a good cross or he will over hit a pass or miscontrol a ball at a vital moment.

The other issue i have with him is I believe he thinks he is better than he is which results in him overplaying. I have never in my life seen a defender head the ball back to his own goal despite knowing there is a at least one opposition player between him and the keeper. He has done this twice. He also makes ridiculous square passes across out back line, which are so close to being intercepted or trying to let the ball run out of play and getting it poached oh and trying a random flick that loses possession. He has too many mistakes in him. One of his best games this season was when he actually underplayed everything and did the basics including getting to the byline and passing the ball to someone who could do something (West Ham maybe?) but those are rare.

I think I am very supportive and patient with our players, and I understand he has been injured but despite our improvement in results since his return, which I believe is more due to balance he provides with his pace rather than his actual ability, I still believe Naughton actually looked better than him at RB this season. Additionally I know some people will say he is injured and will get back to form, but again even when he was at his best he still has had these faults. Does anyone actually think he has ever been good at crossing a ball or picking out a run?

I wouldn't mind if we kept him but the way Rose has improved so much this season in attack especially has really shown Walker up, I don't think Walker has improved at all in terms of final ball since he has joined us. If I was an opposition manager and Walker had the ball I would tell my team to stand off and cover the central areas and not to engage, as 9 times out of 10 he would pick the wrong option. Sounds harsh and I don't like being this harsh but it's what I honestly would do. Here's one for you Danny Rose has contributed to goals 7 times this season goals or assists from open play. I can only recall his goal against Arsenal but I'd be surprised if Walker has contributed more than a combined 10 goals/assists since he has been a regular for us. I can't find the stats and I may be well off but nothing comes to mind.

I don't mind if he stays and I still support him and enjoy having him play for us but it is an area we can improve on. Not only would someone pay heavily for Walker, and he may go on and be great elsewhere, but between Fredericks and Yedlin not to mention one of the most talented young fullbacks around in KWP we would have more than enough to sufficiently replace/cover him. His money(and wages) could go some way to bringing in a top top attacking player, like a Depay or simply go straight towards the stadium.

There are various things wrong with these two posts that @DaSpurs has already addressed, but there are some more.

There are various "things" wrong with your post but i haven't as much time on my hands as you obviously have to reply.

Only four teams have conceded more goals than us in the PL. I don't know what superstars you expect Levy to spend money on to help shore up a defence that Poch really has made no inroads whatsoever to improve. In fact our goals per game conceded ratio is actually getting worse, yet he carries on regardless of this fact trotting out the same team, same 4-2-3-1 lineup and same tactics. To suggest that we need a squad full of defenders in order for Poch to justify his suicidal system defies logic, plain and simple. In fact he absolutely personifies the case of insanity in that he continues to do the same thing time after time and expects a different result.

That ain't gonna happen.

 

[eViL]

There are various "things" wrong with your post but i haven't as much time on my hands as you obviously have to reply.

I'd check out your own online stats before accusing others of having too much time on their hands if I were you.

 

[Mullers]

If we get a defensive coach then it's an admission that Poch cannot organise the defence. Thus in that instance the question has to be asked, why have we hired a coach that cannot organise the defence?