Where do we go now?

Actually after last night match, I really don't know how long will we see the Poch-era Spurs back anymore. I was being naive thinking maybe a fantastic pre-season with a solid manager/coach, we could be seeing a revival next season.

But knowing Levy, the clear out of the dead woods will probably take 2 seasons at least. And over 75% of the squad now are just spineless invertebrates. We can forget about signing ready-made stars if they lack the hunger to even play football professionally. Leeds served as a wake-up call that youngsters who are willing to run for 90 minutes with their badges on their hearts can win matches against a team of Bale, Son and Kane.

I really hope the rumours of having a DoF is true. Our current setup is so broken. I wouldn't mind if we are targetting Championship players/youngsters next season anymore, as likely there will still be a few whom, in the beginning of their careers, will still see pride in playing for Tottenham Hotspur and give their all in training, and in matches.

Passion and determination win matches, coaching and tactics prevent matches to be lost. The bonus of having talent and stardom can come later. I am no longer greedy anymore. I just want the basics done right.

straight into the brand new competition "Uefa European Chumps & Losers" it will be fun

glacierSpurs said:

Actually after last night match, I really don't know how long will we see the Poch-era Spurs back anymore. I was being naive thinking maybe a fantastic pre-season with a solid manager/coach, we could be seeing a revival next season.

But knowing Levy, the clear out of the dead woods will probably take 2 seasons at least. And over 75% of the squad now are just spineless invertebrates. We can forget about signing ready-made stars if they lack the hunger to even play football professionally. Leeds served as a wake-up call that youngsters who are willing to run for 90 minutes with their badges on their hearts can win matches against a team of Bale, Son and Kane.

I really hope the rumours of having a DoF is true. Our current setup is so broken. I wouldn't mind if we are targetting Championship players/youngsters next season anymore, as likely there will still be a few whom, in the beginning of their careers, will still see pride in playing for Tottenham Hotspur and give their all in training, and in matches.

Passion and determination win matches, coaching and tactics prevent matches to be lost. The bonus of having talent and stardom can come later. I am no longer greedy anymore. I just want the basics done right.

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This is where I disagree. What we saw yesterday was a well organised, well coached team easily beating a poorly coached and poorly organised team. We are all obsessed with the quality of players and yes, when all else is equal and the margins very fine, player quality makes the difference. At our best, having better players may well have got us the league, but at the moment that isn't our problem.

What we are in need of is leadership, direction and a clear sense of identity.

I posted this originally in managerial thread initially as there was a bit of convo regarding what we should expect from new manager and I think I had a helping hand at derailing that particular thread so apologies to all for that and getting it locked but in any event what I wrote fits in here in terms of hoping where I'd like to see things go under the new manager regardless of who it is. I know most of this discussion has been quite pessimistic but I'm simply not looking at it like that so anyway here's my novel:

been thinking a lot about what I'd like to see not in terms of I'd expect them to get top4 or a cup. I don't think that setting goals is that important especially in sport because the goal is always to win the next game, there's a management philosophy which I like which is basically "do the right things and the scoreboard will take care of itself". Which is effectively saying that if you work hard at creating the system then the things you wish to achieve will come to fruition. Rather than just saying - here's what we want to achieve, you only focus on the system. Another example is when people say they want to write a book as a goal, well the idea here would be you create a system to where you're able to consistently write and by the end of it you've created a book rather than setting the goal and hoping you'll magically sit down and write a book at some point.

Toward that end focusing on what I'd like to see implemented for me the key thing I'd like to see a manager do is create a team which maximizes the strengths of our players and minimizes their shortcomings to where we create a team which is effective and greater than the sum of it's parts. This is basically what moneyball was all about in that if you sign players of a specific skill, things can go very bad very quickly if you ask them to do a role which doesn't highlight the strength which you based signing them from.

A great example of this is Doherty, if you look at his stats at Wolves, he was good at one thing. Creating overload in the box to where he was able to be the extra man scoring and assisting. He's quite clearly not a great footballer but he's very good at this particular skillset. I believe we are littered with players who are of this nature and we could create a team which highlights their strengths. I'm not saying we should play this formation or not sell these players but just as a thought experiment I'll give an example of how we could play 3-5-2 if we didn't sign anybody.

Lloris
Foyth Dier Rodon
Doherty Hojbjerg Ndombele Reguilon
Lo Celso
Kane Son

So as I say I'm not suggesting 3-5-2 is the best way to go it's great for me getting across what I'm trying to explain.

So here I've focused on the fact that most of our fullbacks are not great defenders, so straight away the system highlights the strengths of Doherty and Reguilon, both can create width for the pitch. We've now maximised the effectiveness of Doherty who isn't a great defender but we're getting him to do the 1 thing he can actually do very well. What we've also done is chosen a RCB who can play RB and CB meaning his skillset is perfect for this particular position and allows tactical flexibility and which minimizes the Doherty's weaknesses. Reguilon is a much better defender than Doherty but still his attacking skillset is his best attribute but again playing him allows the flexibility of getting him to sit back and moving Foyth wider.

Then again Dier I'm no fan of his but it's got him in that hybrid CB/DM role which maximizes his strengths. He seemingly can't be trusted in as one of 2 cb's but he's proven very good at stepping out of defence and being that extra man. With Dier taking the responsibilities of creating that holding midfielder this then has the knock on effect of maximizing Hojbjerg best attributes. He can go and be a ball winning midfielder running all over the show because he doesn't need the positional discipline of a classic DM because we've got Dier there. So again we've maximised the strengths of 2 players there and minimized what they're not great at. This allows a system where Ndombele and Lo Celso have more freedom, a system where Kane can drop in deep and be the extra man knowing that Son can move ahead of him.

Just creating a system based on playing players to their strengths and creating a balance. Not asking Ndombele to play like Sissoko, not asking Lo Celso to play out wide, not asking Doherty to pretend he's a defender. That's the main thing I'd like to see.

The other thing I'd like to see is a more balanced approach to how we approach a game. With Poch we had to watch on as he tried to go toe to toe with the likes of Liverpool and City, pushing the fullbacks so far up the pitch and asking Alderweireld to see on a high line against the lines of Salah and Mane. With Jose he wanted to sit 11 behind the ball 1-0 up against Palace and Fulham. With Mason we've seen his naivety in how he set up against a team he must know can press better than us but leave a lot of space to counter.

I'd like to see a manager who knows where our strengths lie when we should be playing team off the park and picking a team accordingly and I'd like to see some pragmatism when we know we're going to play a team who are better than us and try and possibly play a little deeper in this situation and try and find things to exploit.

Also like to see them implement Skipp, Sessegnon, Rodon, Tanganga and hopefully Foyth. I think we have a really exciting batch of young players coming through it's going to feel like the start of the new era and I hope they can get these guys at the centre of it.

Finally I'd like to see a manager who doesn't play favourites and stop allowing players to be bigger than the club, make decisions which is best for the team. Poch, Jose, Mason all guilty of allowing players to stink the place out with terrible performances and then make the routine subs which aren't reacting to what is happening in the game. I'd like to see a manager brave enough to sub Son off if he's not having a good game, a manager who tells Kane that maybe after 400 attempts, him on freekicks isn't what's best for the team.

richard_gleeson said:

Bring back Foyth. Better than our right backs

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He really isn't. Another defender who is better going forward than defending. He's often targeted by the opposition.

I have absolutely zero faith in the club at the moment over the farcical running of player affairs the past few years.

Leicester adding a FA cup (remember a time when we were one of the teams who’d won it the most…?) to their league title in recent years just highlights what a joke we are.

All we have to look forward to this summer is our star striker, who we have run into the ground and failed to build a winning team around, being continually linked elsewhere.

Back to the 90's?

Just look at this and reflect on the semi final in Amsterdam. We had this unity, we had a clear identity and sense of direction.

It was down to one man. The only thing that was missing was an owner who could see what needed to be done to support that man, and the culture of purpose and direction he had created.

Our owners failed to do that, lost the purpose, lost the togetherness and lost Poch.

I’m really happy for Leicester because they are a shining examples of doing things the right way (especially with their clever signings and overall strategy around succession planning) but - man - watching this is also as difficulty as it is moving.

We had this.

I don’t think I’ve ever felt as low as I do right now about our future prospects. Until tonight I thought that Kane would be with us one more year but after seeing that at the end I can’t picture him wearing our shirt again to be honest. Wouldn’t mind betting that he doesn’t play on Sunday.

How when we opened that stadium against Crystal Palace have we managed to fall this low in such a short space of time?

eddiev14 said:

The only thing that was missing was an owner who could see what needed to be done to support that man, and the culture of purpose and direction he had created.

Our owners failed to do that, lost the purpose, lost the togetherness and lost Poch.

I’m really happy for Leicester because they are a shining examples of doing things the right way (especially with their clever signings and overall strategy around succession planning) but - man - watching this is also as difficulty as it is moving.

We had this.

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This.

I still think with a good coach and a few new faces, and slinging out some old faces we can be in the CL hunt again next season.

I'm going to sound like Captain Hindsight but sacking off Poch's project for the lure of Mr guaranteed trophies has arguably been Levy's biggest fuckup in all his 20 years. It was pure vanity.

eddiev14 said:

Just look at this and reflect on the semi final in Amsterdam. We had this unity, we had a clear identity and sense of direction.

It was down to one man. The only thing that was missing was an owner who could see what needed to be done to support that man, and the culture of purpose and direction he had created.

Our owners failed to do that, lost the purpose, lost the togetherness and lost Poch.

I’m really happy for Leicester because they are a shining examples of doing things the right way (especially with their clever signings and overall strategy around succession planning) but - man - watching this is also as difficulty as it is moving.

We had this.

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If this was Levy the cup would be on Ebay after about 5 minutes ??

PLTuck said:

I still think with a good coach and a few new faces, and slinging out some old faces we can be in the CL hunt again next season.

I'm going to sound like Captain Hindsight but sacking off Poch's project for the lure of Mr guaranteed trophies has arguably been Levy's biggest fuckup in all his 20 years. It was pure vanity.

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Highly doubtful

Best we can hope for us a cup run and 5th I believe.

It will now be similar to Poch's first season. The new coach will take time to build the foundations for his era (if he's able to).

Chelsea, City, United, Leicester and Liverpool all have the blocks built, they will only get better or stay the same. We've fallen and need to rebuild.

Downward spiral

I don't know:

Who can turn us around.
What we can do without Kane.
Where we go from here.
Why we are so bad.
And
How we can shift players.

We are truely in a full-blown crisis.

rossdapep said:

Highly doubtful

Best we can hope for us a cup run and 5th I believe.

It will now be similar to Poch's first season. The new coach will take time to build the foundations for his era (if he's able to).

Chelsea, City, United, Leicester and Liverpool all have the blocks built, they will only get better or stay the same. We've fallen and need to rebuild.

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We hear this rubbish every single season.

Why is there always the assumption that every other team can only improve, and only we can't?

Out in the wilderness in the next few years, I'm actually looking forward to having a team full of hungry players that care for the club and leave it al out there(if we actually manage to make the right signings so probably not then)

I'm actually sick to the back teeth of this current team and our players, the culture of the club absolutely stinks and the club is rotten to the core...time to destroy and rebuild.

PLTuck said:

We hear this rubbish every single season.

Why is there always the assumption that every other team can only improve, and only we can't?

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Well, firstly I was of that exact thinking in the past and believed that people were wrong to suggest that.

But that was because you could see a core stability and players who had further to improve. It was clear we were going to get better and there was no guarantees for the others as they were generally rebuilding/in transition.

Now, we are falling under that category because we have some players who are apathetic (Kane) with the whole situation, we have players who need shifting on and we need to establish a new core. It takes time to build that core. Just look at our midfield!! It has no substance to it!

How can you expect to improve over the course of a summer? We may improve but it'll take time. But you look at the others and they have better energy and stability.

Monkey boy said:

I don’t think I’ve ever felt as low as I do right now about our future prospects. Until tonight I thought that Kane would be with us one more year but after seeing that at the end I can’t picture him wearing our shirt again to be honest. Wouldn’t mind betting that he doesn’t play on Sunday.

How when we opened that stadium against Crystal Palace have we managed to fall this low in such a short space of time?

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Because we knocked down our heart and soul and replaced it with a tourist attraction.

I’m actually pretty worried, this will probably get worse before it gets better

Few teams below us will improve, bottom half next year wouldnt be a shock