Where do we go now?

HodisGawd · Apr 26, 2021

fish5871 said:
It’s the recruitment which is bothering me the most. The money spent on underachievers compared to say Leicester who bought tielemans, ndii for example.

Dembele left in January. Tielemans was available, but we passed on him and Leicester snapped up for £40. Meanwhile, we held out for 6 months, during which we had an injury crisis in midfield that was so bad we played Danny Rose there, and instead waited for Ndombele. In the summer we bought Ndombele for £55m.

Two years on, where are we? In the biggest match since our shiny new midfield general arrived, Winks and Sissoko play ahead of him.

What. A. Mistake.

It has been haunting us ever since and now we're lumbered with an expensive flop while Leicester are flying.

To me, he's the embodiment of everything that's gone wrong.

mpickard2087 · Apr 26, 2021

All this stuff gets said whenever things look bad. Finishing 6th under Sherwood for instance had people saying we were done as a club, they were done as supporters, everything was shit, the apocalypse was nigh, etc etc etc. All of them/you bend with the wind and I bet 99.9% of them were not saying this at all last Autumn, and won’t be next Autumn if we have a few wins under our belts.

Clearly there are problems, things that need addressing, and changes to be made. To get back to the “heights” of a few seasons ago, or even beyond that, is likely not a one season job, we have to be honest about that. I don’t think any of our problems are insurmountable though.
What those in charge need to be doing much better though is Focus, Consistency, and also having a pair of bollocks when required, in terms of decision making and running the team/club.

First of all, unfortunately fans, players, and most importantly staff have forgotten (or didn’t notice in the first place…) how we seriously threatened the upper echelons of the game in the first place. It wasn’t down to what we did with a football, it was, for the first time that I’d seen in a Spurs side, having total buy in to high standards and eleven players across the pitch being prepared to work their nuts off every week. Hard work, high aggression, high energy, no shirking, no slacking. Can’t or won’t do it, you didn’t get in the team. Simple as that. Leadership, on and off the pitch, need to step up and hammer this discipline and standards back into the team.

Of course the first thing we need to do is appoint a Coach who values, understands, and can lead from the front in this aspect.

Then we need to be far more consistent under the next manager in terms of selecting, and improving, the team, and not shying away from tough decisions if required.

Another aspect under peak Poch was that we largely had round pegs in round holes for what he wanted to do. Ball playing centrebacks to build up play, high energy fullbacks to provide width, a strong cm2 that mixed a bit of technicality with a bucketload of physicality, and then fluid attackers ahead of them. All, as mentioned, working their bollocks off with the pressing, and oppositions turning up knowing they’d be in for a right battle.

So if a new manager comes in and wants a high press for instance, well Bale is a goner straight away, Alli probably isn’t far behind, and even the likes of Kane and Son either shape up massively or have to fuck off. If that’s the managers principles of play, he can’t compromise. Likewise if they want attacking high energy fullbacks, Reguilon has the raw ingredients but the other three shouldn’t play again in that case. Or if, heaven forbid, Mourinho Mk2 came in and wanted to play low block, soak pressure, defence ball, he needs to bin players accordingly if they’re simply incompatible. My point is we need to be ruthless and get round pegs in round holes for what the manager wants to do, even if it means (favourite) players falling by the wayside.

And then with this, consistent and focused recruitment with a clear idea and compatibility for what we want. If we want ball playing centre backs, don’t sign a Sanchez. If you want athletic fullbacks don’t sign a Doherty, or even an Aurier. Don’t buy a Sessegnon when you have no idea what position you want him to play in, and/or with a spot in the team available for him. Same applies really for Ndombele or Lo Celso, we’re still no closer to deciding their positions/roles it seems. And no more signing players because the Chairman (and fans tbh) is still simping over them a decade later, eg. Bale. We need to work to a clear plan and recruit with much more focus than what we have done.

Start getting some of that right and some consistency in what we’re doing, and I think things would look a lot better very quickly. I don't even think you have to spend mega money, get the right ingredients/characteristics for the job they're going to do and you're putting in very decent building blocks.

So I don’t think things are in some terminal decline. We have things to address though and desperately need for someone to get hold of the reins and point us in the right direction. At the moment too much of what we’re doing is a bit scattergun and unfocused, plus we lack leadership and the presence to set high standards. All of which is being reflected in what we see on the football pitch.

Nerine · Apr 26, 2021

Our recruitment is all kinds of wrong. That’s largely it in a nutshell - amongst many other things.

NEVILLEB · Apr 26, 2021

Nerine said:
Our recruitment is all kinds of wrong. That’s largely it in a nutshell - amongst many other things.

Been saying this for 10 years.

Its not the Managers, it’s the recruitment.

jonnyh · Apr 26, 2021

How do Leicester get their recruitment spot on, they’re not paying more than us are they but they keep unearthing quality players that fit their system.

thebenjamin · Apr 26, 2021

Cavehillspur said:
Here’s hoping Uefa dont hit us with a transfer ban for the esl involvement otherwise we're totally fucked.

#levymasterclass

Spursberg · Apr 26, 2021

sausage said:
I'm not buying that it was simply because the alternatives weren't good enough. We coped fine with Kane out, and it beggars belief why we didn't ever have a 2-up-top formation when Kane clearly prefers the drop back.

Even now, Vinicius has shown he can score and help out, but he's not been involved as much as he should have been to take the heat off Harry.

Vinicius is WAY off the level we want to be, he has scored some tap ins but his touch and presence for such a big guy is poor and not near good enough. I am all for Harry getting competition but Vinicius is not it. Well if we do not want improvement and fight for EL the next years, Vinicius will be OK, but is that what we want?

Nerine · Apr 26, 2021

Spursberg said:
Vinicius is WAY off the level we want to be, he has scored some tap ins but his touch and presence for such a big guy is poor and not near good enough. I am all for Harry getting competition but Vinicius is not it. Well if we do not want improvement and fight for EL the next years, Vinicius will be OK, but is that what we want?

I would argue that Vinicius hasn’t even really had much of an opportunity, to be honest.

His development as a player will ultimately stagnate with us.

I think he still has potential.

JayB · Apr 26, 2021

jonnyh said:
How do Leicester get their recruitment spot on, they’re not paying more than us are they but they keep unearthing quality players that fit their system.

Analytics have formed the basis of everything Leicester has done since before they even won promotion to the Premier League, the same is true for Liverpool's recruitment under Michael Edwards, and even Brentford are punching above their weight and getting their recruitment spot on through modern data analysis. The best run clubs in the country have all joined the 21st century meanwhile we've still got Hitchen using the eye test. Things won't get better at the club until there's a massive shakeup in the recruitment setup.

evo23 · Apr 26, 2021

Painful rebuild like poch said. The sooner levy accepts it the quicker we can move forward

this involves getting rid of aurier,Toby,Sissoko,winks,Lamela,sanchez,dele,

and if it were down to me Ndombele would be first out the door. Worst 62million EVER spent

Hotspur33 · Apr 26, 2021

double0 said:
That's so short sighted. If you have rotten fruit or dead wood you separate the bad from the good otherwise what will happen is it'll all get bad.

If we have to subsidise his wage like what Real Madrid and all other clubs have done with their players in the past unfortunately we have to do it.

I like Sissoko as a professional footballer you can't ask for more model pro...but that's Levy he went and personally done the deal because the re payment was the length of his contract.

The clubs in a mess at the moment we've lost our identity- in how we want to play football we're caught between not winning silverware and being a laughing stock the club like others isn't consulting fans in regards to the superleague. We have fantastic facilities but very mentally poor players... Plus no manager.

The club needs a massive shake up from top to bottom.

I agree we need a clear out. It's just easier said than done.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few teams look to do a deal with their own players to buy out their contracts just to get rid of them.
But yes to get rid of our "dead wood" I think we would likely have to subsidise some wages

ohtottenham! · Apr 26, 2021

evo23 said:
Painful rebuild like poch said. The sooner levy accepts it the quicker we can move forward

I think Poch was including Levy in that "painful" part of his statement. Not joking.

SpursSince1980 · Apr 26, 2021

mpickard2087 said:
All this stuff gets said whenever things look bad. Finishing 6th under Sherwood for instance had people saying we were done as a club, they were done as supporters, everything was shit, the apocalypse was nigh, etc etc etc. All of them/you bend with the wind and I bet 99.9% of them were not saying this at all last Autumn, and won’t be next Autumn if we have a few wins under our belts.

Clearly there are problems, things that need addressing, and changes to be made. To get back to the “heights” of a few seasons ago, or even beyond that, is likely not a one season job, we have to be honest about that. I don’t think any of our problems are insurmountable though.
What those in charge need to be doing much better though is Focus, Consistency, and also having a pair of bollocks when required, in terms of decision making and running the team/club.

First of all, unfortunately fans, players, and most importantly staff have forgotten (or didn’t notice in the first place…) how we seriously threatened the upper echelons of the game in the first place. It wasn’t down to what we did with a football, it was, for the first time that I’d seen in a Spurs side, having total buy in to high standards and eleven players across the pitch being prepared to work their nuts off every week. Hard work, high aggression, high energy, no shirking, no slacking. Can’t or won’t do it, you didn’t get in the team. Simple as that. Leadership, on and off the pitch, need to step up and hammer this discipline and standards back into the team.

Of course the first thing we need to do is appoint a Coach who values, understands, and can lead from the front in this aspect.

Then we need to be far more consistent under the next manager in terms of selecting, and improving, the team, and not shying away from tough decisions if required.

Another aspect under peak Poch was that we largely had round pegs in round holes for what he wanted to do. Ball playing centrebacks to build up play, high energy fullbacks to provide width, a strong cm2 that mixed a bit of technicality with a bucketload of physicality, and then fluid attackers ahead of them. All, as mentioned, working their bollocks off with the pressing, and oppositions turning up knowing they’d be in for a right battle.

So if a new manager comes in and wants a high press for instance, well Bale is a goner straight away, Alli probably isn’t far behind, and even the likes of Kane and Son either shape up massively or have to fuck off. If that’s the managers principles of play, he can’t compromise. Likewise if they want attacking high energy fullbacks, Reguilon has the raw ingredients but the other three shouldn’t play again in that case. Or if, heaven forbid, Mourinho Mk2 came in and wanted to play low block, soak pressure, defence ball, he needs to bin players accordingly if they’re simply incompatible. My point is we need to be ruthless and get round pegs in round holes for what the manager wants to do, even if it means (favourite) players falling by the wayside.

And then with this, consistent and focused recruitment with a clear idea and compatibility for what we want. If we want ball playing centre backs, don’t sign a Sanchez. If you want athletic fullbacks don’t sign a Doherty, or even an Aurier. Don’t buy a Sessegnon when you have no idea what position you want him to play in, and/or with a spot in the team available for him. Same applies really for Ndombele or Lo Celso, we’re still no closer to deciding their positions/roles it seems. And no more signing players because the Chairman (and fans tbh) is still simping over them a decade later, eg. Bale. We need to work to a clear plan and recruit with much more focus than what we have done.

Start getting some of that right and some consistency in what we’re doing, and I think things would look a lot better very quickly. I don't even think you have to spend mega money, get the right ingredients/characteristics for the job they're going to do and you're putting in very decent building blocks.

So I don’t think things are in some terminal decline. We have things to address though and desperately need for someone to get hold of the reins and point us in the right direction. At the moment too much of what we’re doing is a bit scattergun and unfocused, plus we lack leadership and the presence to set high standards. All of which is being reflected in what we see on the football pitch.

I very much see what you are saying. My post toward the beginning of this thread was a bit more focused on the 'scattergun' aspect of how we have gone about some decision making on the footballing side of things, over the last 10 to 15 years. Hence, you can either be a club that has the means to support a pivot in playing style, based on whomever is the coach in charge. Which means: 1) Making tough decisions like you say, re: who in the current squad can play the way they want. 2) Is there funding and recruiting good enough to fill in the holes? 3) Is this style of play being implemented in the U23s and U18s to ensure a form of consistency for when one of those players can make the leap upward into the first team squad.

But you have to have a rather hefty budget to run the club that way. As it'll mean every 2 to 7 years, there will be a massive turnover. Which I don't believe is place we are in right now. Hence, a consistent approach at the very least allows for more consistency, in terms of philosophy and coaching, from top to bottom. And damn right, you need great leaders to do that.

Best-in-class leadership is needed in A) The coach and their staff B) Existing and new players have a strong leadership mentality/determination. C) Scouting and Recruitment driven by a combination of experience, innovation, and intelligence. D) All of the aforementioned needs to be overseen and managed by a CEO on the footballing side. Call them a director of football, or whatever. But ultimately, they have the vision, the plan, the people and complete control of all decision making on the footballing side of the business. This includes budget management.

The buck stops with them, especially if their remit is to invoke those high standards of excellence through each and every layer of the footballing half of the business.

Maybe all of the above is already happening at the club, and I have no idea what I'm harping on about. But whether there is or there isn't, you are 100% correct, that our approach often feels reactive and unpredictable.

Real_madyidd · Apr 27, 2021

JayB said:
Analytics have formed the basis of everything Leicester has done since before they even won promotion to the Premier League, the same is true for Liverpool's recruitment under Michael Edwards, and even Brentford are punching above their weight and getting their recruitment spot on through modern data analysis. The best run clubs in the country have all joined the 21st century meanwhile we've still got Hitchen using the eye test. Things won't get better at the club until there's a massive shakeup in the recruitment setup.

We did have that guy from Southampton that was supposed to be sorting this out for us. He left pretty damn quickly though.

mil1lion · Apr 27, 2021

First and foremost we need to get back our identity as a club. The Jose philosophy (win at all costs) was never a good fit for us. We have this amazing new stadium with over 62k fans and they want to watch exciting football. It didn't take too long before Redknapp or Poch had us playing exciting football at a time when we were terrible. It also wasn't long before they both got us into a final and into champions league either.

We may feel that we're long way off but a lot of teams have problems at the moment. This season has seen so many teams struggle for consistency. Besides football is largely about momentum.Things can change around so quickly in football especially when fans return. Even a single goal can switch the confidence back and have everyone looking to get on the ball. It doesn't have to take that long for us to get back to playing exciting attacking football again. Levy has to get a man manager who fits our club. We've always done better with those type of coaches.

Styopa · Apr 27, 2021

mil1lion said:
First and foremost we need to get back our identity as a club. The Jose philosophy (win at all costs) was never a good fit for us. We have this amazing new stadium with over 62k fans and they want to watch exciting football. It didn't take too long before Redknapp or Poch had us playing exciting football at a time when we were terrible. It also wasn't long before they both got us into a final and into champions league either.

We may feel that we're long way off but a lot of teams have problems at the moment. This season has seen so many teams struggle for consistency. Besides football is largely about momentum. Things can change around so quickly in football. Even a single goal can switch the confidence back and have everyone looking to get on the ball. It doesn't have to take that long for us to get back to playing exciting attacking football again. Levy has to get a man manager who fits our club. We've always done better with those type of coaches.

I agree. I think many of us have been worn down by years of poor football, which started even before Mourinho. Although he did nothing to arrest the decline, and in fact I think he exasperated it, sent us further in the wrong direction.

But truthfully, outside of the Champions League run there really hasn't been much to get excited about for a long time now - for three of four years. Everything has felt like a slog - from playing our home games at Wembley, to Poch's final season in the PL where we more or less stumbled into the top four despite very poor form in the second half of the season to last season where we scraped into the EL on the final day with a draw v Palace. There has been no sense of momentum or forward progression, just a relentless grind. Obviously covid hasn't helped either.

razzmaster · Apr 27, 2021

Styopa said:
I agree. I think many of us have been worn down by years of poor football, which started even before Mourinho. Although he did nothing to arrest the decline, and in fact I think he exasperated it, sent us further in the wrong direction.

But truthfully, outside of the Champions League run there really hasn't been much to get excited about for a long time now - for three of four years. Everything has felt like a slog - from playing our home games at Wembley, to Poch's final season in the PL where we more or less stumbled into the top four despite very poor form in the second half of the season to last season where we scraped into the EL on the final day with a draw v Palace. There has been no sense of momentum or forward progression, just a relentless grind. Obviously covid hasn't helped either.

I think the move to Wembley really hurt us. Our form at WHL was exceptional in our final season but we lost all momentum when we moved to Wembley. I don't think we ever really recovered.

mil1lion · Apr 27, 2021

Styopa said:
I agree. I think many of us have been worn down by years of poor football, which started even before Mourinho. Although he did nothing to arrest the decline, and in fact I think he exasperated it, sent us further in the wrong direction.

But truthfully, outside of the Champions League run there really hasn't been much to get excited about for a long time now - for three of four years. Everything has felt like a slog - from playing our home games at Wembley, to Poch's final season in the PL where we more or less stumbled into the top four despite very poor form in the second half of the season to last season where we scraped into the EL on the final day with a draw v Palace. There has been no sense of momentum or forward progression, just a relentless grind. Obviously covid hasn't helped either.

The stadium is a good point too. It just felt like we were getting used to our new home and the fans getting the singing going before it closed. We've all sorts of disruption from the stadium being delayed to covid lockdown. We need to build the place into a fortress. I don't think that was ever going to happen with Jose-ball. It's one thing to miss out on CL or not win trophies but it's another to be so dull to watch.

mil1lion · Apr 27, 2021

razzmaster said:
I think the move to Wembley really hurt us. Our form at WHL was exceptional in our final season but we lost all momentum when we moved to Wembley. I don't think we ever really recovered.

It also altered our style of football. We really made the smaller pitch into our advantage with the high energy pressing. The old stadium felt so congested at times. We always seemed to have 2 or 3 players hunting down the ball. You just can't play that way on the Wembley pitch or even the new stadium pitch.

buckley · Apr 27, 2021

Stats and analytics apparently was something Jose was not Keen on and took no note of .
Looking at Leicester he made a big mistake it seems that all the top clubs use stats and analytics to their advantage .

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