Women's Football - Wage Disparity Debate

nailsy

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Players get paid for playing international football, so money received in world cups and Euro's will get split between players staff who were there, but also will keep a chunk to pay players when not getting the prize money ( qualification and friendlies)
I'm sure that's partly true, but there are also other revenue streams for that. Gate receipts, sponsorship, TV money etc.

Anyway I'm out.
 

'O Zio

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Ah yes, the good old 'pushing the ladies game down our throats' argument, as if the BBC send round a team of people to forcibly strap you into your armchair unable to turn off the TV or change channel right? Nah, the remote control is there for a reason if it 'offends' you so much lol
Nothing wrong with covering women's football, but what I do find silly is how the media (I've noticed this a lot on BBC and the Guardian, so it's presumably elsewhere too) often try and use almost click-bait style tactics to "disguise" articles about women's football as if they're about men's football.

For example, in the middle of all the men's football news, there'll often be an article with a fairly ambiguous headline like "City close to landing Spanish youngster", and then when you click on it it's actually about City's women's team signing someone. This happens all the time so it's not just an isolated incident. Like I say, there's nothing wrong with the article or covering the story, I just find it daft and unnecessary for them to resort to this kind of thing whereby they're almost tricking you into reading a story about women's football. I think it's stuff like that that winds people up and leads to this "forcing it down our throats" mentality.

At the moment they're open and upfront about it all because they're getting behind the women's world cup, but during the ordinary season this sort of "let's pretend it's about the men's team to get people to click on it" tactic is really common.
 

Marty

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Nothing wrong with covering women's football, but what I do find silly is how the media (I've noticed this a lot on BBC and the Guardian, so it's presumably elsewhere too) often try and use almost click-bait style tactics to "disguise" articles about women's football as if they're about men's football.

For example, in the middle of all the men's football news, there'll often be an article with a fairly ambiguous headline like "City close to landing Spanish youngster", and then when you click on it it's actually about City's women's team signing someone. This happens all the time so it's not just an isolated incident. Like I say, there's nothing wrong with the article or covering the story, I just find it daft and unnecessary for them to resort to this kind of thing whereby they're almost tricking you into reading a story about women's football. I think it's stuff like that that winds people up and leads to this "forcing it down our throats" mentality.

At the moment they're open and upfront about it all because they're getting behind the women's world cup, but during the ordinary season this sort of "let's pretend it's about the men's team to get people to click on it" tactic is really common.
Do the five wasted seconds of that scenario hurt enough to bother to complain about it? That's what I don't understand.
 

'O Zio

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Do the five wasted seconds of that scenario hurt enough to bother to complain about it? That's what I don't understand.
Not really but it's those kinds of shenanigans that contribute towards it not being taken as seriously IMO. If the newspaper thinks that the WSL is worth covering then why the need to resort to such silly tactics to "trick" people into reading articles avout it?

The way I see it, either people are interested enough in the sport in which case those sort of "tricks" are simply unnecessary, or if that sort of thing is in fact necessary then that's surely more of an indication that that article isn't of interest to the readership
 

Khilari

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Nothing wrong with covering women's football, but what I do find silly is how the media (I've noticed this a lot on BBC and the Guardian, so it's presumably elsewhere too) often try and use almost click-bait style tactics to "disguise" articles about women's football as if they're about men's football.

For example, in the middle of all the men's football news, there'll often be an article with a fairly ambiguous headline like "City close to landing Spanish youngster", and then when you click on it it's actually about City's women's team signing someone. This happens all the time so it's not just an isolated incident. Like I say, there's nothing wrong with the article or covering the story, I just find it daft and unnecessary for them to resort to this kind of thing whereby they're almost tricking you into reading a story about women's football. I think it's stuff like that that winds people up and leads to this "forcing it down our throats" mentality.

At the moment they're open and upfront about it all because they're getting behind the women's world cup, but during the ordinary season this sort of "let's pretend it's about the men's team to get people to click on it" tactic is really common.
Interesting one this. I see it from both points of view.

If we as a society are going to make strides towards equality, then moves to report women's football in the same manner that men's is reported is a good one. However you could argue that they are different enough sports that they should be labelled men's and women's, since they are selective sports (in the same way Rugby Union and League differ and thus are labelled differently).

Personally, I don't have a problem with it and applaud the BBC for making positive strides.
 

dontcallme

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Interesting one this. I see it from both points of view.

If we as a society are going to make strides towards equality, then moves to report women's football in the same manner that men's is reported is a good one. However you could argue that they are different enough sports that they should be labelled men's and women's, since they are selective sports (in the same way Rugby Union and League differ and thus are labelled differently).

Personally, I don't have a problem with it and applaud the BBC for making positive strides.
I agree with Ozio but the disdain should be aimed at the media tactics not the women's game.
 

nailsy

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48885876

Fifa president Gianni Infantino wants to increase the size of the Women's World Cup to 32 teams and double its prize money, and launch a women's Club World Cup.

After calling the ongoing tournament in France "the best women's World Cup ever", Infantino set out a five-point plan to make sure football "seizes this opportunity".

Bidding for the 2023 tournament - which has yet to be allocated and was set to contain 24 sides - may have to restart to accommodate the extra teams.

Infantino also said the world governing body wants a women's World League for national sides - similar to the Uefa Nations League - which would include promotion and relegation.

He also plans to double a planned $500m (£400m) investment in women's football in the next four years, saying Fifa has unprecedented levels of reserves and "we don't need all that money in Swiss banks - they have enough".

More teams, more money
This year's World Cup has seen record TV audiences in the UK and beyond, with Infantino keen to capitalise on the success of the tournament by expanding it from 2023.

Prize money for the 2019 World Cup was doubled to $30m (£24m) but will go up to $60m (£48m) for the next tournament.

The 2018 men's World Cup in Russia had a total fund of $400m (£320m), with winners France taking home $38m (£30m).

"It's a great thing, this World Cup, but then people forget, they do other things. It's our job to make sure that they don't forget and we don't just say: 'See you in four years,'" said the 49-year-old Swiss-Italian.

"That's why I propose to the Fifa council and to all our members - who have to embrace the development of women's football.

"We have already more than doubled the prize money for the World Cup this year, but we will double it again for the next World Cup - I am very confident that we can do that.

"We will have to act quickly to decide if we are to increase it for 2023. If we do, we should reopen the bidding process to allow everyone to have a chance or maybe co-host. Nothing is impossible."

'Clubs can shine on the world stage'
The Club World Cup has existed in men's football since 2000. The winners of the Champions League face continental champions from Africa, Asia, Oceania and North and South America. Liverpool will take part in this year's competition, set to be played in Qatar in December.

The Fifa president believes the first women's event could be played in 2020.

"I would like to propose a Club World Cup for women, starting as soon as possible," he said. "A real Club World Cup. We can only develop national football if we develop club football as well.

"It can be played every year to expose clubs all over the world. Clubs would invest even more in women's football to shine on the world stage."
 

Dirty Ewok

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48885876

Fifa president Gianni Infantino wants to increase the size of the Women's World Cup to 32 teams and double its prize money, and launch a women's Club World Cup.

After calling the ongoing tournament in France "the best women's World Cup ever", Infantino set out a five-point plan to make sure football "seizes this opportunity".

Bidding for the 2023 tournament - which has yet to be allocated and was set to contain 24 sides - may have to restart to accommodate the extra teams.

Infantino also said the world governing body wants a women's World League for national sides - similar to the Uefa Nations League - which would include promotion and relegation.

He also plans to double a planned $500m (£400m) investment in women's football in the next four years, saying Fifa has unprecedented levels of reserves and "we don't need all that money in Swiss banks - they have enough".

More teams, more money
This year's World Cup has seen record TV audiences in the UK and beyond, with Infantino keen to capitalise on the success of the tournament by expanding it from 2023.

Prize money for the 2019 World Cup was doubled to $30m (£24m) but will go up to $60m (£48m) for the next tournament.

The 2018 men's World Cup in Russia had a total fund of $400m (£320m), with winners France taking home $38m (£30m).

"It's a great thing, this World Cup, but then people forget, they do other things. It's our job to make sure that they don't forget and we don't just say: 'See you in four years,'" said the 49-year-old Swiss-Italian.

"That's why I propose to the Fifa council and to all our members - who have to embrace the development of women's football.

"We have already more than doubled the prize money for the World Cup this year, but we will double it again for the next World Cup - I am very confident that we can do that.

"We will have to act quickly to decide if we are to increase it for 2023. If we do, we should reopen the bidding process to allow everyone to have a chance or maybe co-host. Nothing is impossible."

'Clubs can shine on the world stage'
The Club World Cup has existed in men's football since 2000. The winners of the Champions League face continental champions from Africa, Asia, Oceania and North and South America. Liverpool will take part in this year's competition, set to be played in Qatar in December.

The Fifa president believes the first women's event could be played in 2020.

"I would like to propose a Club World Cup for women, starting as soon as possible," he said. "A real Club World Cup. We can only develop national football if we develop club football as well.

"It can be played every year to expose clubs all over the world. Clubs would invest even more in women's football to shine on the world stage."
Good to see that they are upping the investment.

But upping the tournament to 32 teams seems like a double edged sword....

Upside....More teams can get into the tournament so potentially more nations invest in the women's game to try and secure one of those 32 slots. Helping the game grow.

Downside...There is an absolute cliff in talent drop off from top teams to everyone else. We saw it this WWC with the likes of Thailand, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, Nigeria, Cameroon, Jamaica all being in the field. None of them were in anyway a qulaity side. Hell South Korea, who is traditionally a solid side, looked like shit in the tournament. When you look at the overall rankings there is a dip in the quality of the teams at around slots 17-24.....Once you hit the 30s there is a fucking cliff where the talent and quality is just not even remotely close to the top 15 sides. Letting the likes of Uzbekistan (#42 in the world), Vietnam (#35), Jordan (#54) or Uruguay (#74) get into the tournament because of an expanded field means there is just more chances for the top sides to clatter the have-nots on a international stage and raise questions in the media about the quality of the sport just like it did when Thailand got thumped for 13 in this one.
 

LexingtonSpurs

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South Korea, who is traditionally a solid side,
Eh?

South Korea have won exactly 1 match in the history of the Women's World Cup - dating back to 1999. They have qualified for only 3 of 8 tournaments, and went 0-3 in the group stage in 2003 and 2019, and went 1-1-1 in 2015.
 

Dirty Ewok

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Eh?

South Korea have won exactly 1 match in the history of the Women's World Cup - dating back to 1999. They have qualified for only 3 of 8 tournaments, and went 0-3 in the group stage in 2003 and 2019, and went 1-1-1 in 2015.
I thought they were one of the ones that was usually....pretty good but not great. Guess i was wrong.
 

ToDarrenIsToDo

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A lot of very sexist posts in this thread and personal insults. Well done to @Atomic Blonde for calling them out.

@Rob and others have said the men’s game has generated far more money than the women’s game so the disparity is normal. It has also historically attracted far less exposure, marketing and investment. The disparity in popularity is not because everyone has watched both and decided on a superior product.

Compare the difference between tennis and football in terms of differences in exposure, marketing, investment and popularity in the men’s and women’s game. Far less difference in popularity in tennis because other factors far more equal.
Supply and demand pal. I'm all for the liberation of equality and women's football but I'm also not going to blow smoke up their backsides and say I think it's anywhere near as entertaining to watch as the men's game.

The harsh reality is that in the majority of cases the women's teams would cease to exist or be able to function without money from its male counterparts. The West Ham ladies football team for example loses £500,000 per year which gets covered by the men's team. If the women's game is going to flourish it should be how the men's team did in a natural and organic way not piggy backing onto 135-140 years worth of history just because someone shouts it isn't fair.

The Tottenham Hotspur ladies for an example already have a HUGE advantage over the first Tottenham Hotspur men's teams as they can associate themselves with the name Tottenham Hotspur, a brand built over 135 years by the male teams.

You highlight about equal pay etc and mention about women's tennis. Is that the same women's tennis that saw the Williams sisters, the two biggest stars of the women's game lose on the same day to a guy ranked outside the top 200 in the world? Does he get paid as much in marketing and event money as they do even though he proved himself to be a more superior player than them? Sometimes males gain an advantage being male, sometimes they have a disadvantage. He will never earn anywhere near as much as those two but he's proven himself to be better than them.

It's a flawed argument for me and the women's game if it truly wants to prove itself needs to organically fine its way and not keep looking for handouts. Yes there are areas that need addressing of course but most of the time the reason a footballer gets paid what he gets paid isn't because it's fair on him as a human, it's supply and demand. He gets paid what he does as it'll keep their cash cow running. It isn't not a charity and it irks me that so many people in life expect handouts. Once the ladies start playing football in a way that I find interesting and exciting enough to genuinely want to watch I'll change my tune but what I saw when I watched the women's World Cup was closer to watching kids running around in a park than it was watching the top men's teams playing the game and if the women's game focused more on improving that side of things they will find their pay quickly looking far closer to what they feel they deserve.

At club level they have been more than happy to take the name of a men's team, that suited them and the women's game has come on leaps and bounds but I haven't seen many of them opt against using the men's team name and brand so they build it themselves and that bothers me. I don't see many ladies teams not trying to cut corners, all this progress seems a little bit plastic to me they need to give themselves time and trailblazer the game for futurer generations.

Give them help yes but handouts absolutely not. Long term it will make their game better if they learn how to generate success like the men's game did.
 

Japhet

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There will inevitably be disparity until such time as the fan base for male and female sports is equal. When that will happen in football I have no idea, if ever.
 

WalkerboyUK

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48885876

Fifa president Gianni Infantino wants to increase the size of the Women's World Cup to 32 teams and double its prize money, and launch a women's Club World Cup.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Seriously??
How many teams is he planning on sticking in that?
There are maybe 6 teams worthy of it, and all are European.
Not a single US women's club team would win a game against Man City, Chelsea, Lyon, Barcelona for starters. Hell, the US women's national team probably wouldn't beat them.

The fact that the Carli Lloyd has played more than twice as many international matches than club matches says all you need to know about club level football in the women's game.
Megan Rapinoe is one of those leading the call for equal pay. She plays for Seattle Reign, who's stadium capacity is 6500. That's on a par with a League 2 side, and I'd wager the pay is similar. You can't start demanding money equal to that which MLS players are on when you play in a 9 team league in front of 5/6000 per game.

Don't get me wrong, this World Cup has done wonders to raise the profile of the women's game, but it's decades away from being on a par financially etc. with the men's game.
 

Archibald&Crooks

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Don't get me wrong, this World Cup has done wonders to raise the profile of the women's game, but it's decades away from being on a par financially etc. with the men's game.
And things like this are what will help address that. Even if its a slow process. Even if it's 'decades away' it's more positive than doing nothing and letting it stand still.
 

WalkerboyUK

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And things like this are what will help address that. Even if its a slow process. Even if it's 'decades away' it's more positive than doing nothing.
Totally agree, which is why I think it's ridiculous they're calling for financial equality to the men's game, assuming they mean what's going into their pockets.
If they mean investment into the game itself, then my understanding is that they already do get the same at grass roots level.
Colleges are required to invest the same money into women's sport as the equivalent men's version.
 

WalkerboyUK

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48885876

More teams, more money
This year's World Cup has seen record TV audiences in the UK and beyond, with Infantino keen to capitalise on the success of the tournament by expanding it from 2023.
UK viewing figures also probably increased because:
a) 2015 tournament was in Canada so most matches were late night/early hours in the Europe
b) BBC broadcast on their main channels, whereas in 2015 it was all shown on BBC 3/4
 

nailsy

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Totally agree, which is why I think it's ridiculous they're calling for financial equality to the men's game, assuming they mean what's going into their pockets.
If they mean investment into the game itself, then my understanding is that they already do get the same at grass roots level.
Colleges are required to invest the same money into women's sport as the equivalent men's version.
Are they asking for equal pay at club level? Genuine question. I've only seen a mention of it at international level where they are more successful than the men's team and attract more viewers ( less than 1m viewers for the recent men's gold cup match).
 

nailsy

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UK viewing figures also probably increased because:
a) 2015 tournament was in Canada so most matches were late night/early hours in the Europe
b) BBC broadcast on their main channels, whereas in 2015 it was all shown on BBC 3/4
I can't argue with that. It's still impressive being the most watched program on UK TV this year though.
On the flip side the viewing figures in the USA are only down about 10% despite losing the primetime slot.
 

WalkerboyUK

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Are they asking for equal pay at club level? Genuine question. I've only seen a mention of it at international level where they are more successful than the men's team and attract more viewers ( less than 1m viewers for the recent men's gold cup match).
Not sure to be honest.
Shouldn't be paid to represent your country anyway...
 

'O Zio

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Not sure to be honest.
Shouldn't be paid to represent your country anyway...
I agree with you when talking about e.g. the PL men who make more money than they know what to do with anyway, but if you're a player like the women are who make just a "normal" salary then I think it's fair enough that they get a match fee.
 
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