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Toxicity and modern football fans

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
How much of this is ‘modern fans’ or the way that the game is now awash with so much money?

And how much of it for our fanbase is due to:
-3 years of boring football under Jose,Nuno and at times
-22 years of under par running of the football side of the club by Levy/ENIC with no clear plan
 

bc205

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2005
3,577
6,274
How much of this is ‘modern fans’ or the way that the game is now awash with so much money?

And how much of it for our fanbase is due to:
-3 years of boring football under Jose,Nuno and at times
-22 years of under par running of the football side of the club by Levy/ENIC with no clear plan

What measurement are you using to suggest that we have been under par on the footballing side for the last 22 years? Also, do you think that we were performing under par before ENIC took over?

For context, in the 10 seasons before ENIC took over our average league position was 11th. In ENIC's first 10 years that improved to 8th, and in the last 11 seasons the average position has been 4.5 (round up to 5 if you want to be pedantic). Overall their average position is 6th.

That surely shows that ENIC have steadily been improving the club since they took over. The last 11 years especially, given we have consistently finished higher, or on par with our relative wealth/wage spending in the league.

Now obviously there has not been nearly enough success in terms of winning trophies, and there have been major strategic mistakes in terms of transfers and some managerial appointments. There have been significant problems under ENIC, that is undeniable. But that has been the case at times for all major clubs aside from the sportswashers.

I think it is definitely a bit hyperbolic to say we have been performing under par on the footballing side. I think that ENIC (and especially Levy) deserve a lot of criticism for the mistakes they have made. But it's unfair to dismiss their record like that. It is inarguable that they have significantly improved the club on the footballing side since they took over.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
What measurement are you using to suggest that we have been under par on the footballing side for the last 22 years? Also, do you think that we were performing under par before ENIC took over?

For context, in the 10 seasons before ENIC took over our average league position was 11th. In ENIC's first 10 years that improved to 8th, and in the last 11 seasons the average position has been 4.5 (round up to 5 if you want to be pedantic). Overall their average position is 6th.

That surely shows that ENIC have steadily been improving the club since they took over. The last 11 years especially, given we have consistently finished higher, or on par with our relative wealth/wage spending in the league.

Now obviously there has not been nearly enough success in terms of winning trophies, and there have been major strategic mistakes in terms of transfers and some managerial appointments. There have been significant problems under ENIC, that is undeniable. But that has been the case at times for all major clubs aside from the sportswashers.

I think it is definitely a bit hyperbolic to say we have been performing under par on the footballing side. I think that ENIC (and especially Levy) deserve a lot of criticism for the mistakes they have made. But it's unfair to dismiss their record like that. It is inarguable that they have significantly improved the club on the footballing side since they took over.
Fair underpar perhaps wrong wording but at times many decisions on the football side have been self-sabotaging and have led us to go backwards when we had an opportunity to keep going forwards and more likely to win something.

For example:
-Hiring many managers with polar opposite tactical approaches so the squad available is a bad fit and needs a ton of surgery each time.
-Selling Keane, Defoe and Berbatov and replacing them with Fraiser Campbell ? then sacking the manager and then re-signing Keane and Defoe ?
-Holding onto players for too long by holding out for too high/unrealistic fee
-Sacking Jose before a cup final
-Sacking Jol at half time
-Offering a pack of peanuts for Jack Grealish when we could’ve got him for £10mil and he goes on to be sold to City for £100mil
-Hiring 3 defensive managers in a row, 2 of whom were a terrible fit for the club
-Not pushing the boat out to properly back manages when we are in a position of strength (Nelsen & Saha when Redknapp wanted Tevez & Cahill), letting poch’s squad go stale when we got to the CL final.

Anyways this is the toxicity thread not the ENIC thread. But these types of decisions do add up as black marks and the kind of thing that fans get fed up of which leads to toxicity. So do other things like the lack of communication from the board and making false promises and the ESL, trying to move us to Stratford etc etc etc, fans don’t forget these things.
 

bc205

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2005
3,577
6,274
Fair underpar perhaps wrong wording but at times many decisions on the football side have been self-sabotaging and have led us to go backwards when we had an opportunity to keep going forwards and more likely to win something.

For example:
-Hiring many managers with polar opposite tactical approaches so the squad available is a bad fit and needs a ton of surgery each time.
-Selling Keane, Defoe and Berbatov and replacing them with Fraiser Campbell ? then sacking the manager and then re-signing Keane and Defoe ?
-Holding onto players for too long by holding out for too high/unrealistic fee
-Sacking Jose before a cup final
-Sacking Jol at half time
-Offering a pack of peanuts for Jack Grealish when we could’ve got him for £10mil and he goes on to be sold to City for £100mil
-Hiring 3 defensive managers in a row, 2 of whom were a terrible fit for the club
-Not pushing the boat out to properly back manages when we are in a position of strength (Nelsen & Saha when Redknapp wanted Tevez & Cahill), letting poch’s squad go stale when we got to the CL final.

Anyways this is the toxicity thread not the ENIC thread. But these types of decisions do add up as black marks and the kind of thing that fans get fed up of which leads to toxicity. So do other things like the lack of communication from the board and making false promises and the ESL, trying to move us to Stratford etc etc etc, fans don’t forget these things.

Yeah i get your point, and i am certainly not going to argue that there haven't been plenty of mistakes under ENIC (although i think some of the ones you have listed are not as clear cut as you think).

To tie this back in to the thread's subject, i completely understand why fans are frustrated with our lack of trophies and question whether ENIC/Levy are the best people to take us forward and challenge for major honours. I think that is a completely legitimate position to have, and i lean towards it in my more pessimistic moments.

But i really do not understand the levels of anger and vitriol we have seen from fans and on this board over the last couple of months. The tone from a lot of posters and fans has changed from one of frustration/banter to genuine anger and hated towards Levy in particular. Personally, i don't see how that is justifiable given that we have been regularly finishing in the top 5 and playing European football over the last 10 years. I think there has been a change in attitude over the last few years and that entitlement has been creeping into our fanbase, as i don't see any other logical explanation for the sheer level of anger among a lot of our fans at the moment.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
Yeah i get your point, and i am certainly not going to argue that there haven't been plenty of mistakes under ENIC (although i think some of the ones you have listed are not as clear cut as you think).

To tie this back in to the thread's subject, i completely understand why fans are frustrated with our lack of trophies and question whether ENIC/Levy are the best people to take us forward and challenge for major honours. I think that is a completely legitimate position to have, and i lean towards it in my more pessimistic moments.

But i really do not understand the levels of anger and vitriol we have seen from fans and on this board over the last couple of months. The tone from a lot of posters and fans has changed from one of frustration/banter to genuine anger and hated towards Levy in particular. Personally, i don't see how that is justifiable given that we have been regularly finishing in the top 5 and playing European football over the last 10 years. I think there has been a change in attitude over the last few years and that entitlement has been creeping into our fanbase, as i don't see any other logical explanation for the sheer level of anger among a lot of our fans at the moment.
I think it’s a build up of frustration from the last 3 years mostly.
We had the dizzy heights of Poch, beautiful football for the mostpart, 2 title challenges, CL final, unbeaten season at the Lane, a manager that we connected with and who most of our fans adored…

So you go from that almost 3-4 year drug high to : Jose and Joseball, negative and toxic, + a pandemic, + completely fucked up manager search -> we were promised in writing that we would be going back to playing attacking football as the club had lost sight of its focus on the football team our clubs DNA and tradition of playing attacking open football -> we then hire Nuno fucking Espírito Santo (so completely broken promise and waste of time and yet more dour football), we then hire conte but there are constant questions and uncertainty about his future and his pressers and style of play are often quite negative and there is a perception that he’s not been properly backed and was let down a bit in summer (ITK and conte statements etc), throw in Arsenal top of the league out of no where and playing beautiful football that we were playing under poch and you have an absolute recipe for a huge build up of anger which ends up now directed towards Levy/ENIC.

There may be a small portion of our current fan base and of football fans in general who are a bit entitled and a bit overly negative but I think a lot of anger from our fans in particular isn’t down to entitlement and I think that is an insult to the majority of our fans who’ve actually been very patient and resilient over the last 20-30+ years.
 

bc205

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2005
3,577
6,274
There may be a small portion of our current fan base and of football fans in general who are a bit entitled and a bit overly negative but I think a lot of anger from our fans in particular isn’t down to entitlement and I think that is an insult to the majority of our fans who’ve actually been very patient and resilient over the last 20-30+ years.

Well i guess that's where we'll have to disagree. I just don't see a legitimate case for the levels of anger. Ups and downs are standard for a club of our level. But the general trend has been upwards and there's nothing to suggest thst there will be a serious downward shift anytime soon. So i think it is a bit entitled to be so angry when we're still in the champions league and the top 5 (although i understand frustration over ticket prices).

It's not like we are in Everton's shoes or like Newcastle under Ashley. Those would be cases for real anger in my view.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
Well i guess that's where we'll have to disagree. I just don't see a legitimate case for the levels of anger. Ups and downs are standard for a club of our level. But the general trend has been upwards and there's nothing to suggest thst there will be a serious downward shift anytime soon. So i think it is a bit entitled to be so angry when we're still in the champions league and the top 5 (although i understand frustration over ticket prices).

It's not like we are in Everton's shoes or like Newcastle under Ashley. Those would be cases for real anger in my view.
Completely fair mate everyone has a different view of the situations and their experiences and expectations
 

mabolsa_ritchey

aka Hugh G Rection
Oct 23, 2005
1,410
1,531
I think it’s a build up of frustration from the last 3 years mostly.
We had the dizzy heights of Poch, beautiful football for the mostpart, 2 title challenges, CL final, unbeaten season at the Lane, a manager that we connected with and who most of our fans adored…

So you go from that almost 3-4 year drug high to : Jose and Joseball, negative and toxic, + a pandemic, + completely fucked up manager search -> we were promised in writing that we would be going back to playing attacking football as the club had lost sight of its focus on the football team our clubs DNA and tradition of playing attacking open football -> we then hire Nuno fucking Espírito Santo (so completely broken promise and waste of time and yet more dour football), we then hire conte but there are constant questions and uncertainty about his future and his pressers and style of play are often quite negative and there is a perception that he’s not been properly backed and was let down a bit in summer (ITK and conte statements etc), throw in Arsenal top of the league out of no where and playing beautiful football that we were playing under poch and you have an absolute recipe for a huge build up of anger which ends up now directed towards Levy/ENIC.

There may be a small portion of our current fan base and of football fans in general who are a bit entitled and a bit overly negative but I think a lot of anger from our fans in particular isn’t down to entitlement and I think that is an insult to the majority of our fans who’ve actually been very patient and resilient over the last 20-30+ years.
This is all very true. The vocal minority on Twitter/forums tend to take over the place with their opinions, but the majority of fans have little to no interest in whatever the flavour of the month is to direct the anger. Hence why whenever we have protests it’s always a small number of people who actually show up.
Football fans are also very fickle, and we all know it just takes a couple of wins/new signings for the mood to change.

Our matches are a bit boring at the moment though. I’ve actually fell asleep during the last couple!
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,050
86,960
ENIC were always clear about their goal. Get us out of the doldrums, qualify regular for the CL, and build a new stadium. Done.

It's how we push on from there that we need to pin down.
 

SSC

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2004
407
1,639
Agree with all the sentiments aligned to the OP. I was v lucky with the crowd around me at old WHL yet the people I was around in the Wembley years were awful knuckle dragger types. Constantly calling out our own players, f bombs and c bombs next to their 8/9 year old kids etc. Made the whole experience so toxic, was such a relief when they didnt turn up for games... was so nervous about Season Ticket roulette when we moved back.

Thankfully the nearest people around me are all lovely level headed guys. The way things have ramped up since Covid, dont think I could justify staying if I was around the types who just make match day toxic and can easily see why the atmosphere pushes middle of the road (passionate but not abusive) people like me and my family out (and the future generations).
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,354
3,324
How much of this is ‘modern fans’ or the way that the game is now awash with so much money?

And how much of it for our fanbase is due to:
-3 years of boring football under Jose,Nuno and at times
-22 years of under par running of the football side of the club by Levy/ENIC with no clear plan
I think there's a really interesting factor enveloped in your question. You have listed a couple of totally valid points there which are relevant to Spurs. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to me that suggests that we (Spurs fans) have it worse than others, so when the insults start flying it's not toxic because we have justification.

Sorry if that wasn't your thought process - but it seems to me that fans are becoming more insular in their views, particularly with the 24 hour access to opinions about their own club. We see so much about Spurs (the good and the bad) that it's very easy to think everything is crap in our own patch, and assume the grass is so much greener everywhere else.

I think a lot of anger from our fans in particular isn’t down to entitlement and I think that is an insult to the majority of our fans who’ve actually been very patient and resilient over the last 20-30+ years.

Isn't that idea of patience and resilience exactly what entitlement is in this context? I've waited patiently for 20 years... where are my 4 FA Cups? There is nothing that says our football club is entitled to win X amount of trophies over Y amount of years surely.

I'm trying to be careful with words because I really don't want to offend anybody who reads this, especially yourself. But I think I've noticed more than ever this trend of people getting wound up by all of the negatives and not countering that by including the positives. There isn't enough tolerance of negative outcomes, or perhaps it's an exaggeration of those negatives due to constant coverage, and that swings the overall mood quickly towards despair.

Were you to become an undercover fan of another club and really embed yourself in their online communities I don't think it would take long for you to draw up a huge list of everything that club is doing wrong. I'm sure there are City fans who are currently furious because (as you said yourself) Arsenal have come out of nowhere to be better than them. The same Arsenal who's fanbase was calling for the heads of their board just last season.

Every club is on a rollercoaster. I think if we can be mindful of that fact it should make dealing with our own downs a lot easier. For every gripe we make the same could be said by a clutch of other fan groups. For every "Levy doesn't spend any money" there would be a rival fan saying "at least you've got money". We might be worried that we won't finish in the top 4 whilst there will be Liverpool fans worried they won't finish in the top half!

There may be a small portion of our current fan base and of football fans in general who are a bit entitled and a bit overly negative

Perhaps the crux of it all is this. It does make me wonder that if somebody has a negative mindset towards the club, they don't notice the amount of negativity being posted. They would view a post that says "This club is a fucking joke" as being a statement of fact rather than being negative.

So what looks like a decent portion of fans being super negative to me, might look to you like a small portion being a bit negative to somebody else. Again, I'm not trying to cause offense at all. If anything I'm trying to set my own tolerance levels.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
I think there's a really interesting factor enveloped in your question. You have listed a couple of totally valid points there which are relevant to Spurs. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to me that suggests that we (Spurs fans) have it worse than others, so when the insults start flying it's not toxic because we have justification.

Sorry if that wasn't your thought process - but it seems to me that fans are becoming more insular in their views, particularly with the 24 hour access to opinions about their own club. We see so much about Spurs (the good and the bad) that it's very easy to think everything is crap in our own patch, and assume the grass is so much greener everywhere else.



Isn't that idea of patience and resilience exactly what entitlement is in this context? I've waited patiently for 20 years... where are my 4 FA Cups? There is nothing that says our football club is entitled to win X amount of trophies over Y amount of years surely.

I'm trying to be careful with words because I really don't want to offend anybody who reads this, especially yourself. But I think I've noticed more than ever this trend of people getting wound up by all of the negatives and not countering that by including the positives. There isn't enough tolerance of negative outcomes, or perhaps it's an exaggeration of those negatives due to constant coverage, and that swings the overall mood quickly towards despair.

Were you to become an undercover fan of another club and really embed yourself in their online communities I don't think it would take long for you to draw up a huge list of everything that club is doing wrong. I'm sure there are City fans who are currently furious because (as you said yourself) Arsenal have come out of nowhere to be better than them. The same Arsenal who's fanbase was calling for the heads of their board just last season.

Every club is on a rollercoaster. I think if we can be mindful of that fact it should make dealing with our own downs a lot easier. For every gripe we make the same could be said by a clutch of other fan groups. For every "Levy doesn't spend any money" there would be a rival fan saying "at least you've got money". We might be worried that we won't finish in the top 4 whilst there will be Liverpool fans worried they won't finish in the top half!



Perhaps the crux of it all is this. It does make me wonder that if somebody has a negative mindset towards the club, they don't notice the amount of negativity being posted. They would view a post that says "This club is a fucking joke" as being a statement of fact rather than being negative.

So what looks like a decent portion of fans being super negative to me, might look to you like a small portion being a bit negative to somebody else. Again, I'm not trying to cause offense at all. If anything I'm trying to set my own tolerance levels.
Fundamentally there is a lack of hope at our club because of the same cycle repeating itself over and over and over again and that is due to Levy / Enic.

Yes of course I / others appreciate the positives that they’ve brought but at the same time being a football fan is about hope and fun and we are running very low on both of those.

As for entitlement I still don’t agree, no one is saying as you’ve suggested “where are my 4 fa cups?” and yes I know the PL has become very hard due to a few mega rich clubs but one league cup win in 22 years is a very poor return if you compare it to any previous 22 year stretch in our history.
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,354
3,324
Fundamentally there is a lack of hope at our club because of the same cycle repeating itself over and over and over again and that is due to Levy / Enic.

Yes of course I / others appreciate the positives that they’ve brought but at the same time being a football fan is about hope and fun and we are running very low on both of those.

As for entitlement I still don’t agree, no one is saying as you’ve suggested “where are my 4 fa cups?” and yes I know the PL has become very hard due to a few mega rich clubs but one league cup win in 22 years is a very poor return if you compare it to any previous 22 year stretch in our history.
I think you may have missed the thrust of my point - a football club is going to have ups and downs no matter what. This is true of all clubs, not just Spurs. It's not about ENIC having positives as well as negatives, it's about our current situation viewed in the context of any football, within the context of other clubs.

The context of football since the 90's has drastically changed so I don't think there is much value in trying to compare now to then. But if we did, what sort of trophy return do you think would be acceptable for the 22 years of ENIC? How many FA cups would we have had to win to make the ENIC years comparable to any similar stretch in our history? What combination of silverware would make this all acceptable?

The only reason I ask is because I think this is a symptom of the entitlement that I do believe exists. I honestly think that the levels of negativity are stopping people from even considering these things.

If nobody is saying "where are my 4 FA Cups" then why does the 1 trophy in 20 years come up so often? If we have an expectation of a certain number of trophies in a given period of time, surely that is entitlement?
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
I think you may have missed the thrust of my point - a football club is going to have ups and downs no matter what. This is true of all clubs, not just Spurs. It's not about ENIC having positives as well as negatives, it's about our current situation viewed in the context of any football, within the context of other clubs.

The context of football since the 90's has drastically changed so I don't think there is much value in trying to compare now to then. But if we did, what sort of trophy return do you think would be acceptable for the 22 years of ENIC? How many FA cups would we have had to win to make the ENIC years comparable to any similar stretch in our history? What combination of silverware would make this all acceptable?

The only reason I ask is because I think this is a symptom of the entitlement that I do believe exists. I honestly think that the levels of negativity are stopping people from even considering these things.

If nobody is saying "where are my 4 FA Cups" then why does the 1 trophy in 20 years come up so often? If we have an expectation of a certain number of trophies in a given period of time, surely that is entitlement?
But the football is mindnumbingly boring and has been almost the most boring defensive lack of possession and creativity football in the league for near on 3 years, paying good money and time to endure that week in week out as well as the build up of the same mistakes from Levy in years gone by leave our fans exhausted and lacking hope or enjoyment

That is primarily why they’re so fed up right now, the lack of trophies is just added to this and expecting or rather hoping for a certain number of trophies based on the history of the club and the resources available to compete isn’t entitlement it’s called being realistic and hopeful.
 
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vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,354
3,324
But the football is mindnumbingly boring and has been almost the most boring defensive lack of possession and creativity football in the league for near on 3 years, paying good money and time to endure that week in week out as well as the build up of the same mistakes from Levy in years gone by leave our fans exhausted and lacking hope or enjoymen.

That is primarily why they’re so fed up right now, the lack of trophies is just added to this and expecting or rather hoping for a certain number of trophies based on the history of the club and the resources available to compete isn’t entitlement it’s called being realistic and hopeful.
I don't disagree about the football being drab. I maybe wouldn't describe it as the most boring in the league for 3 years, but we can have a difference of opinion on that. :)

I won't drift onto ENIC too much in this thread, but my opinion of them in the post-stadium, post-Covid period is that they aren't doing enough to get us competing to where we should be. Past spending levels aren't as important in my view, but I want to be clear that I don't think they are doing a great job or anything.

When it comes to the fans I fully appreciate that the people who go to watch us each week are going to be fed up with the way we have been playing. And I think "fed up" is probably a perfect description... not angry or desperate. A "lack of hope" is also very apt. I struggle with how anybody converts those feelings into the sort of posts that are often thrown around e.g. the Porro thread this morning!

What I think is telling is that you and I are having a perfectly calm conversation and we can develop these ideas of trophy hauls or the failings of ENIC. We have moved to the notion of hoping for trophies (not expecting them) and our competitiveness based on our resources. I'm sure most fans are capable of this, but maybe because it's so easy to use forums or Twitter to post a quick dig and then forget about it feeds into the negativity.

So that's what led me to thinking about how we view online posts based on our mindset. I think I tend to have a positive outlook so when I read something like the Porro thread this morning I see a hell of a lot of negativity that I don't feel is justified. I wonder if somebody who has a more negative outlook (not saying that's a bad thing) would view that thread and see it as stuff that is fully justified and needs to be said/added to.
 

Mattspur

ENIC IN
Jan 7, 2004
4,885
7,257
Both #EDUOUT in relation to "top of the league" Arsenal, and #FSGREED regarding recent PL champions and last seasons domestic cup double winners, Premier League and Champions League runners-up, Liverpool, have been trending today.
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Jul 27, 2003
3,579
5,854
I was thinking from the City game, Pep was complaining after about the City fans not supporting in the first half. There were some Blue Moons and chants but the overwhelming sound was booing. Booing official decisions, booing defending, booing opposition players, and then the booing at half time when 2-0 down.

When you ask fans what they want, they'll all say spending on players and trophies. The City fans should be in the position that we all want to be in- having won 4/ 5 last titles and a bottomless transfer budget. But even they are booing at half-time in a game they'll go on to win 4-2.

We used to ridicule the Arsenal fans for booing and their persistent moaning on AFTV and lack of support all during the years we were on top. Now our fans behave just like that. We boo at the end of the games and at half time and sometimes even our players coming on as subs because they've had some dodgy performances before. The forums and Twitter are full of angry messages about players, Conte, ENIC, Levy. People are trying to start campaigns to force ENIC to sell out to Qataris, never mind the politics. And for what? To be in the City fans position. Booing at half time.

During the Poch years I remember genuine joy around the ground, a feeling of progress and excitement at what we were seeing each week, and nobody complaining about not winning trophies, genuinely. I really miss that, and wonder if it can return. But I think people are so bothered by windups from rival fans on Twitter or Arsenal having a good season and a general sense of entitlement, because it seems the only happy fans now are the ones whose club is in 1st place, and even then they're angry and complaining about referees or lack of "credit" from the media or something. Makes you wonder what it's all about really...

You need to remember, managers help set the tone. Positive Poch had the stadium bouncing. As Conte became more negative, the fans have become more negative.

Generally, Pep is positive but lately has questioned the application of players and then the boos started.
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,578
46,580
Both #EDUOUT in relation to "top of the league" Arsenal, and #FSGREED regarding recent PL champions and last seasons domestic cup double winners, Premier League and Champions League runners-up, Liverpool, have been trending today.
Wow now that is toxic lol! But Twitter is just a big place to moan, hate it personally.
 
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