Top four finish?

[Mr Pink]

Travelling takes it out of people, especially across time zones. I've often had to travel for work and even European travel really screws you up after a while. It's the little things like not sleeping in a bed you find comfortable etc.

I personally feel in the group stages against longer haul opponents the Manager is better off sending a second string side and the Assistant Manager, before joining them on the actual day of the match. That way he can stay at home and work with the stronger team for the upcoming league match. My logic behind this is that the longer haul games tend to be against the weaker opponents anyway.

Totally agree with this. The travel factor is underestimated by some.

 

[dudu]

Travelling takes it out of people, especially across time zones. I've often had to travel for work and even European travel really screws you up after a while. It's the little things like not sleeping in a bed you find comfortable etc.

I personally feel in the group stages against longer haul opponents the Manager is better off sending a second string side and the Assistant Manager, before joining them on the actual day of the match. That way he can stay at home and work with the stronger team for the upcoming league match. My logic behind this is that the longer haul games tend to be against the weaker opponents anyway.

Not so sure the "little" things are going to have as much as an effect on multi million pound assets as they would do for you or me.

MOst of the little things would be balanced out by first class treatment every step of the way - comfortable transport, comfortable lodgings, great food.

Not only that but its not like they have to do it THAT often - 3 times in as many months isnt exactly a life sapping continental travel schedule.

 

[nicdic]

Totally agree with this. The travel factor is underestimated by some.

And yet it's been explained time and again in here that only City's group in the CL this year don't have a far flung team.

 

[Mr Pink]

And yet it's been explained time and again in here that only City's group in the CL this year don't have a far flung team.

The overriding point for me is that CL teams still benefit from getting more overall recovery/preparation time, over the course of a season, by virtue of playing alternate Tuesday/Wednesday's.

 

[nicdic]

The overriding point for me is that CL teams still benefit from getting more overall recovery/preparation time by virtue of playing alternate Tuesday/Wednesday's.

Only if you're thinking about the game after. I feel like a broken record but the difference distance between games either side when taken as a whole week. (Sat/Sun - Thu - Sun OR Sat/Sun - Tue/Wed - Sat/Sun). The biggest, and I think determining factor is perception and the mental affect that has.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Yeah, but we all know what will happen. History will repeat and Chelsea will finish about 8th but win the Champions League while we proceed to finish 4th finally, only to have the Champions League place denied us.

Someone needs to have a wee look at the new rules.

 

[Lighty64]

Ok...Where do I start with this...

United & Arsenal have better defensive record is down to Schneiderlin & Coaqulin respectively. Everyone knows how well Scheniderlin protected the Saints back 4. Coaquelin - statistically is the best (grudgingly admitting) defensive midfielder in PL. You take out those two from the two teams , you will see a different goals conceded stats.
Its no fluke that the same teams concede more in CL where the defenders show tactical naivity. We have joint best defensive record is also down to a defensive midfielder in Dier.

Secondly - you are bored watching us ? Really ? Were you around when we used to play slow back pass football under AVB (am not AVB hater btw)...? This year its so much better than last. We have seen faster transition from defense to attack. Likes of Alli,Mason & Son playing good one touch football. Lamela has improved in attack. Had Kane been scoring from his chances, we should have scored atleast 5 or 6 more.

I want a football, where end of the day goal difference in plus and double digit. We are doing it in both ends. We are conceding less & scoring more. We have played balanced football till now and have already got +8 GD - not been done for last 4 or 5 years....

I think compared to playing the same teams as we did last season, but putting Bournemouth in place of Hull, we are +13GD on those games so far

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Son and Njie aren't strikers though, come on you know this. Not in the same bracket as Walcott or Welbeck anyway, at least they've played as strikers in this league at some point in their career.

I take it you haven't followed Njie's career overly closely then? This misconception that he is a winger needs to stop. Every game he played for Lyon was as a striker.

 

[glospur]

Someone needs to have a wee look at the new rules.

New rules? I'm assuming that situation can't happen and the league would then have 5 teams qualify? I thought that was only for the team that won the Europa league.

 

[Mr Pink]

Only if you're thinking about the game after. I feel like a broken record but the difference distance between games either side when taken as a whole week. (Sat/Sun - Thu - Sun OR Sat/Sun - Tue/Wed - Sat/Sun). The biggest, and I think determining factor is perception and the mental affect that has.

For me the game after is more relevant. Its harder to adapt to the physical side of the premiership after a Europa game away from home when there has been a lot of travel and only two clear days to recover IMO.

Conversely a lot of the CL games can be played at a slower pace, so Arsenal for example, playing on the Saturday in the prem and then playing on the Tuesday in the CL isn't as demanding that way round if that makes sense.

And the aggregate recovery time is higher between games if you totted it up over the course of a full season.

I actually think that City have struggled with the slow pace and more tactical side of some of CL games. Obviously they're facing better opposition most of the time, but its a factor IMO.

They thrive on the pace and power of the PL, its what they're built for.

 

[tttcowan]

The overriding point for me is that CL teams still benefit from getting more overall recovery/preparation time, over the course of a season, by virtue of playing alternate Tuesday/Wednesday's.

THIS. It's nothing to do with EL or CL or mindsets in competitions or anything else like that. The poor league results come purely from 2 day rest periods compared to 3 and 4. The evidence is there and no amount of rationale relating to having larger squads, diets? Being professionals? First class travel? Or anything like that can take away from the fact that the when you turn up to play a team who's had more than 2 days rest and you've had only 2 you can expect a poorer performance and therefore less points on average than if you had 3 days rest or more. This is what the evidence shows. I'd add in my view this could only be worsened by the high standards of the PL where compared to other leagues it's actually a very level playing field. You just can't turn up at the lower teams and play under 100% your best and expect favourable results. So if anything whatever we do this effect is worsened.

People think this argument is anti EL. Like we're above it. It's not and nothing like that and actually quite the opposite. Waltzing into league games consistently with this handicap and thinking we should be able to get the same results as we would normally of provided is arrogant and grossly underestimates the standard of the PL.

In short, and I'm trying not to sound massively offensive here, but pretty much it's either ignorant or arrogant to think the EL won't affect our league performances in a negative way. If nothing else then just because of the way the fixtures are arranged.

In order to have a valid view point on how we should approach the EL you've first got to accept that fact... And I'd add "in my opinion" but at some point you've got to look at the amount of evidence and say, yeah well that's pretty much fact... Which at this point it just is.

 

[Shanks]

I'll have more of an informed opinion once we get through our next 4 games to see where we could potentially finish.

Villa, Arsenal, West Ham, Cheslea.... come out of that up there, we could do very well this year.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Just my onions, but this whole discussion is much ado about nothing.

These are professional athletes - their bodies, when fit, are capable of playing multiple games in a week. The difference between the energy exerted in a match and the energy exerted in a Pochettino-led training session is likely negligible.

I think one of the things I have found interesting this season, is the relative lack of rotation in Europa and League matches. This is similar to how CL clubs must play - putting strong teams out in both competitions. Historically this has not impacted CL clubs in the league - because the same few teams keep qualifying. And, this year, you can see that our League results have not suffered following Europa matches - a stark contrast to previous years when we used a heavy rotation between the two competitions.

I think there is something to keeping players in a playing rhythm, and providing rest at opportune times - like after the Bournemouth match.

 

[nicdic]

THIS. It's nothing to do with EL or CL or mindsets in competitions or anything else like that. The poor league results come purely from 2 day rest periods compared to 3 and 4. The evidence is there and no amount of rationale relating to having larger squads, diets? Being professionals? First class travel? Or anything like that can take away from the fact that the when you turn up to play a team who's had more than 2 days rest and you've had only 2 you can expect a poorer performance and therefore less points on average than if you had 3 days rest or more. This is what the evidence shows. I'd add in my view this could only be worsened by the high standards of the PL where compared to other leagues it's actually a very level playing field. You just can't turn up at the lower teams and play under 100% your best and expect favourable results. So if anything whatever we do this effect is worsened.

People think this argument is anti EL. Like we're above it. It's not and nothing like that and actually quite the opposite. Waltzing into league games consistently with this handicap and thinking we should be able to get the same results as we would normally of provided is arrogant and grossly underestimates the standard of the PL.

In short, and I'm trying not to sound massively offensive here, but pretty much it's either ignorant or arrogant to think the EL won't affect our league performances in a negative way. If nothing else then just because of the way the fixtures are arranged.

In order to have a valid view point on how we should approach the EL you've first got to accept that fact... And I'd add "in my opinion" but at some point you've got to look at the amount of evidence and say, yeah well that's pretty much fact... Which at this point it just is.

I disagree. The evidence is worthless. It's all well and good saying look at how English clubs do in EL vs CL, but it's completely different clubs, with completely different mindsets. It's not a valid comparison.

Plus as I've already said countless times, EL gets better preparation time, less recovery. CL better recovery, less preparation. There is not enough difference in it to warrant the fuss that is made. It must be something else.

 

[beats1]

Just my onions, but this whole discussion is much ado about nothing.

These are professional athletes - their bodies, when fit, are capable of playing multiple games in a week. The difference between the energy exerted in a match and the energy exerted in a Pochettino-led training session is likely negligible.

I think one of the things I have found interesting this season, is the relative lack of rotation in Europa and League matches. This is similar to how CL clubs must play - putting strong teams out in both competitions. Historically this has not impacted CL clubs in the league - because the same few teams keep qualifying. And, this year, you can see that our League results have not suffered following Europa matches - a stark contrast to previous years when we used a heavy rotation between the two competitions.

I think there is something to keeping players in a playing rhythm, and providing rest at opportune times - like after the Bournemouth match.

Yea but CL teams have 4 days on average after their CL game so the travel time isn't a issue and they can train at home before the game and arrive on the day or early in the day before.

Whereas we always have 3 days rest and when we are away we lose a day anyway. If we leave the stadium at ten, we then have to catch a flight in the middle of the night. The players wont get back home at least until about 1ish - 2ish or if they are really far like Azerbaijan, Turkey and etc. then they wont get back until like 5-6am.

Then training is hard the next day(even if it is a warm down session) and then they only have one day of proper training before the game which is Saturday

Compare that to a CL team
They finish the game at the latest 6 or 8 o'clock on a saturday, now they do have 3 days for rest but their rest period is longer. For a start that they will have at least 72 hours rest since their kick off is at 7:45pm. Whereas we finish at half 9 and then are expected to play at 2pm(usually 3pm) which in theory is at least 64.5 hours rest.

However there are some key differences, CL teams can afford to stay in a hotel and leave the next day(which is something we did once last season)

But back to the pre CL game, the CL team wont have any travel time on saturday or sunday that will mean they will get home in the early hours. The CL team can have less intense session the day after the game on sunday and then travel at an reasonable hour or what some teams do wait until the day before the game(i.e monday or tuesday) travel to the city in the morning and then train at night in prep for the game tomorrow at the same time. Then they also have half a day of a less intense session of training before the game

Either way it isn't the same as the players do get more training and better rest in the two comparable periods(which happens a lot less than it does for europa league teams(which is all the time)

 

[Lighty64]

And yet it's been explained time and again in here that only City's group in the CL this year don't have a far flung team.

after a bit of work, take a look at the script after each set and you will see a difference. even if CL teams play Saturday then on a Tuesday they still get over 72hrs from a game finishing to. a game starting

this season:
Tottenham = Sunday EPL, Thursday EL, Sunday EPL. less than 72hrs after EL match finished
--------- Saturday EPL, Thursday EL, Sunday EPL. less than 72hrs after EL match finished
--------- Saturday EPL, Thursday EL, Sunday EPL. less than 72hrs after EL match finished
next 3 sets
--------- Monday EPL, Thursday EL, Sunday EPL. less than 72hrs after EPL & next EL match finishes
--------- Sunday EPL, Thursday EL, Sunday EPL. less than 72hrs after EL match finishes
--------- Saturday EPL, Thursday EL, Sunday EPL. less than 72hrs after EL match finishes

CL teams
Manure = Friday EPL, Tuesday CLQ, Saturday EPL, Wednesday CLQ, Sunday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Sunday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Sunday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Sunday EPL.
next 3 sets
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.

Manshiek = Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Sunday EPL.
next 3 sets
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Sunday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.

Arscum = Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Sunday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.
next 3 sets
---------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Sunday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Sunday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Sunday EPL.

Chelscum = Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Saturday EPL. less than 72hrs after CL match finished
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.
----------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Saturday EPL.
next 3 sets
---------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Saturday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Tuesday CL, Sunday EPL.
---------Saturday EPL, Wednesday CL, Monday EPL.

 

[tttcowan]

Just my onions, but this whole discussion is much ado about nothing.

These are professional athletes - their bodies, when fit, are capable of playing multiple games in a week. The difference between the energy exerted in a match and the energy exerted in a Pochettino-led training session is likely negligible.

I think one of the things I have found interesting this season, is the relative lack of rotation in Europa and League matches. This is similar to how CL clubs must play - putting strong teams out in both competitions. Historically this has not impacted CL clubs in the league - because the same few teams keep qualifying. And, this year, you can see that our League results have not suffered following Europa matches - a stark contrast to previous years when we used a heavy rotation between the two competitions.

I think there is something to keeping players in a playing rhythm, and providing rest at opportune times - like after the Bournemouth match.

No. Because they're playing against other professional athletes. It's all relative. It's about having less time to prepare, less recovery time etc. compared to who they will be playing. And the stats show 2 days is not enough.

 

[Shadydan]

I take it you haven't followed Njie's career overly closely then? This misconception that he is a winger needs to stop. Every game he played for Lyon was as a striker.

Fair enough.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

On a regular basis I've heard a lot Spurs fans laugh about Mertesacker. claim Koscielny is rubbish, Gibbs is far worse than Rose, Chambers is far worse than Dier, Monreal is terrible etc.

Who the hell have you heard call Koscielny rubbish, because frankly that's an absolutely laughable opinion. That's far from a wideheld view so don't act as if 'a lot of Spurs fans' is anything other than the drunk fella sitting at the bar in your local.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

No. Because they're playing against other professional athletes. It's all relative. It's about having less time to prepare, less recovery time etc. compared to who they will be playing. And the stats show 2 days is not enough.

Who we play against has no impact on their own fitness levels - they are either tired/fatigued, or they are not.

What are these stats that show 2 is not enough? ManUtd might argue that 4 days is too much - they have 5 points from 5 games following CL matches - scoring 4, conceding 7.

This season we have scored 8 goals, and conceded 3, in the three matches following EL play this year.

If we did not have a mid-week game - what do you think the players would be doing instead? By all accounts, Pochettino believes in a strenuous practice regimen. The actual difference in energy expended is likely to be negligible. The players are not lounging around in the week between matches.