The Y Word

[Spurslove]

Not being Jewish, I have no business chanting this if I am told it is offensive by Jewish people I know and trust. As it happens, I've had this discussion with a member of my family who is Jewish (and who is also Spurs season ticket holder of many years, long before me). I'm going to go along with what he says and not chant it.

If you are Jewish, go ahead and debate this all you want and if at some point a consensus on it emerges let me know and I'll go with whatever is agreed.

But while there are Jewish people - and specifically Spurs fans - who are undeniably offended by it, I'm not chanting it. Put simply, why would I? I go through life trying to be kind to people. Maybe I have the right to chant it - but that doesn't mean I choose to.

Surely if we want to express unity, we should do so in a way that actually does express unity.

Thanks for sharing. You have every right to join in or not to join in and I totally respect your reasoning, but I'm never going to criticise anyone for their individual choice, and I only wish everyone held the same view as I do on that.

 

[mil1lion]

Language evolves. I don't really know how it works but it must take time. Susan Dent talks about old words and their meanings being so different in the past. For me the word yid is one of those words that we've changed the meaning for. It was an offensive term that we changed so it was no longer offensive. Now we have people who think it's offensive again. I do find it hard to believe this word that has been used for decades offends people any more today than it did 30-40 years ago. I feel like we live in a society now where its almost popular to be offended. Now if the phrase is aimed at yourself then you would have cause for complaint. If you don't like it that's fair enough but I'm sorry but people do need to just not let it get to them.

I do get annoyed with this cancel culture where people say "well I don't like it so it should be banned". Completely ignoring the fact that there are people that like it and they shouldn't have it taken away. It's like these complaints towards Jimmy Carr and the holocaust joke. This is a joke he said at a gig I went to 2 years ago. Now it gets shown on Netflix and people want him banned. Well there are people who like this content so why ban it? If you don't like it don't watch it and If you don't like the yid chants don't join in. It can't be hard to live with something that is now ingrained in the club history and is sung for decades.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Our fans turned something negative into something positive and the club is trying to turn it back into something negative, which is completely tone deaf.

we don't own the word - it offends people and it encourages a narrative that is based on bigotry and nastiness

 

[McFlash]

we don't own the word - it offends people and it encourages a narrative that is based on bigotry and nastiness

As the great man Stephen Fry once said...

'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'

Stephen Fry, who not so long ago traced his Jewish ancestry and is also a great advocate of the evolution of language.
I'd love to hear his opinion on this matter.

 

[McFlash]

we don't own the word - it offends people and it encourages a narrative that is based on bigotry and nastiness

And surely, we've taken ownership of the word and changed the narrative?

 

[wearetheparklane]

And surely, we've taken ownership of the word and changed the narrative?

In your opinion.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

And surely, we've taken ownership of the word and changed the narrative?

no not all = maybe at some point back in the day when football was a different world to what it is to day it had some positives - but what it does is it maintains the narrative of hatred it keeps it alive why would you want to do that even more so when you know that some people find it offensive -

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

we don't own the word - it offends people and it encourages a narrative that is based on bigotry and nastiness

Some people feel offended and we shouldn't want that. You have to ask why they are offended when we all know it is not meant in bigotry and nastiness, quite the opposite, it may be they associate it with other experiences outside Spurs games. So it sounds like more communication is needed, or else they have some personal trauma to work through. I've taken Jewish people to WHL who were shocked initially and grew to really like it. It is a positive and unique thing we should be proud of.

Otherwise you get into trying to please all the people all the time. Let's say for instance I care about animal rights and cruelty, as many people do as we see with Zouma and his cat scandal, I might find it shocking that the club is NAMED the Spurs, which is a reference to the outlawed and cruel practice of cockfighting. There's even a giant cock with his spurs at the top and all the fans sing the name. Some others might agree with me, but the majority I would guess, who might also care about animal rights and Zouma's cat, are quite happy for the name and the chants to remain because its part of the history and culture of the club, which ultimately is a positive collective thing and not encouraging cockfighting. Should the club ban the word because of me and my offended friends?

The other thing is it was not sung as much as it now since people have been trying to ban it. It might naturally fade away but this approach is not going to work.

 

[wearetheparklane]

Some people feel offended and we shouldn't want that. You have to ask why they are offended when we all know it is not meant in bigotry and nastiness, quite the opposite, it may be they associate it with other experiences outside Spurs games. So it sounds like more communication is needed, or else they have some personal trauma to work through. I've taken Jewish people to WHL who were shocked initially and grew to really like it. It is a positive and unique thing we should be proud of.

Otherwise you get into trying to please all the people all the time. Let's say for instance I care about animal rights and cruelty, as many people do as we see with Zouma and his cat scandal, I might find it shocking that the club is NAMED the Spurs, which is a reference to the outlawed and cruel practice of cockfighting. There's even a giant cock with his spurs at the top and all the fans sing the name. Some others might agree with me, but the majority I would guess, who might also care about animal rights and Zouma's cat, are quite happy for the name and the chants to remain because its part of the history and culture of the club, which ultimately is a positive collective thing and not encouraging cockfighting. Should the club ban the word because of me and my offended friends?

The other thing is it was not sung as much as it now since people have been trying to ban it. It might naturally fade away but this approach is not going to work.

I think relating the plight of Jewish people and their treatment throughout history to the plight of birds involved in cockfighting is a bit of a stretch....!

People offended by bringing up the image of cockfighting is slightly different to people offended by a reminder of a (arguably historic and now little used) racial label (arguably a slur but lets not get into that) against them...

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

I think relating the plight of Jewish people and their treatment throughout history to the plight of birds involved in cockfighting is a bit of a stretch....!

People offended by bringing up the image of cockfighting is slightly different to people offended by a reminder of a (arguably historic and now little used) racial label (arguably a slur but lets not get into that) against them...

I think most people would agree with you that it would be wrong to ban it, even if some people are regrettably offended.

 

[McFlash]

In your opinion.

Well, yes, of course its my opinion and that's kinda what this thread is for. Possibly I share that opinion with quite a few people, which is the whole point of discussion, to see both sides.
Or are we not allowed our own opinions now, incase it offends someone?

Thanks for the worthy contribution though. ?

 

[McFlash]

no not all = maybe at some point back in the day when football was a different world to what it is to day it had some positives - but what it does is it maintains the narrative of hatred it keeps it alive why would you want to do that even more so when you know that some people find it offensive -

I guess this is the issue.
Someone, somewhere will be offended by anything, regardless of the history or sentiment behind it.

Should we just be painting over history and pretending it didn't happen? Or should we be embracing the changes it brought?

 

[Nice One Cyril]

I have been educated, following this thread. Excellent points, all well made.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

[/QUOTE]

I guess this is the issue.
Someone, somewhere will be offended by anything, regardless of the history or sentiment behind it.

Should we just be painting over history and pretending it didn't happen? Or should we be embracing the changes it brought?

people being offended by it of course people should be concerned - the sentiment - that was back in the day when was the last time people heard hissing and Belsen songs in the ground? Football has changed from then and by continuing to sing it you are continuing the agenda and the hatred

 

[McFlash]

people being offended by it of course people should be concerned - the sentiment - that was back in the day when was the last time people heard hissing and Belsen songs in the ground? Football has changed from then and by continuing to sing it you are continuing the agenda and the hatred
[/QUOTE]
Edit. Apologies. I've no idea how the quotation system got messed up here @ralphs bald spot , so I thought I should tag you with my reply...

I'll be honest, I don't even link it with that nonsense anymore.
I'm 46 and for me, it's just a part of us and who we are as a club. As I said before, it feels like a part of our identity now.

I have no desire to offend anyone, nor do I wish to incite hate but I've been a Yid for all my life and I can't see that changing anytime soon.

Maybe that's an ignorant, or selfish standpoint but it's how I feel.
I've grown up calling myself a yiddo.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Some people feel offended and we shouldn't want that. You have to ask why they are offended when we all know it is not meant in bigotry and nastiness, quite the opposite, it may be they associate it with other experiences outside Spurs games. So it sounds like more communication is needed, or else they have some personal trauma to work through. I've taken Jewish people to WHL who were shocked initially and grew to really like it. It is a positive and unique thing we should be proud of.

Otherwise you get into trying to please all the people all the time. Let's say for instance I care about animal rights and cruelty, as many people do as we see with Zouma and his cat scandal, I might find it shocking that the club is NAMED the Spurs, which is a reference to the outlawed and cruel practice of cockfighting. There's even a giant cock with his spurs at the top and all the fans sing the name. Some others might agree with me, but the majority I would guess, who might also care about animal rights and Zouma's cat, are quite happy for the name and the chants to remain because its part of the history and culture of the club, which ultimately is a positive collective thing and not encouraging cockfighting. Should the club ban the word because of me and my offended friends?

The other thing is it was not sung as much as it now since people have been trying to ban it. It might naturally fade away but this approach is not going to work.

You see the argument against it - for me is not about the word being re-appropriated that was a different time in a different world - its about now and by using the chant you are giving people an excuse for bigotry and hatred - you might think that they are the problem and not you in singing it but why encourage it in the first place . The word is not ours to own its far from unique and it hasn't made the world a better place like some people seem to think instead it now continues the agenda which really ought to be consigned to the past

 

[ralphs bald spot]

people being offended by it of course people should be concerned - the sentiment - that was back in the day when was the last time people heard hissing and Belsen songs in the ground? Football has changed from then and by continuing to sing it you are continuing the agenda and the hatred

Edit. Apologies. I've no idea how the quotation system got messed up here @ralphs bald spot , so I thought I should tag you with my reply...

I'll be honest, I don't even link it with that nonsense anymore.
I'm 46 and for me, it's just a part of us and who we are as a club. As I said before, it feels like a part of our identity now.

I have no desire to offend anyone, nor do I wish to incite hate but I've been a Yid for all my life and I can't see that changing anytime soon.

Maybe that's an ignorant, or selfish standpoint but it's how I feel.
I've grown up calling myself a yiddo.
[/QUOTE]

mate I have no axe to grind and I would have said the same a while back - look I don't think things will change straight away but I do think there is a conversation to be had - I don't think most if any Spurs fan link it with that nonsense but for me the problem is you giving other morons a chance to be greater morons by encouraging bigotry by carrying on something that maybe belongs in the past a bit

 

[dontcallme]

people being offended by it of course people should be concerned - the sentiment - that was back in the day when was the last time people heard hissing and Belsen songs in the ground? Football has changed from then and by continuing to sing it you are continuing the agenda and the hatred

Edit. Apologies. I've no idea how the quotation system got messed up here @ralphs bald spot , so I thought I should tag you with my reply...

I'll be honest, I don't even link it with that nonsense anymore.
I'm 46 and for me, it's just a part of us and who we are as a club. As I said before, it feels like a part of our identity now.

I have no desire to offend anyone, nor do I wish to incite hate but I've been a Yid for all my life and I can't see that changing anytime soon.

Maybe that's an ignorant, or selfish standpoint but it's how I feel.
I've grown up calling myself a yiddo.

These are all valid points.

What I find unrealistic, not saying that you're saying this, is some Spurs fans thinking non-football fans, especially Jews, should know and accept the context in which we are using the term.

 

[McFlash]

These are all valid points.

What I find unrealistic, not saying that you're saying this, is some Spurs fans thinking non-football fans, especially Jews, should know and accept the context in which we are using the term.

I think, therein lies our problem.
It means something completely different to Spurs fans, than it does to the rest of the world.
It's hard for us to see outside our own perspective and to not fall foul of the tribalistic, football mindset when people tell us that we shouldn't celebrate our tribe in the way we have for decades.

 

[Duke of Northumberland]

You see the argument against it - for me is not about the word being re-appropriated that was a different time in a different world - its about now and by using the chant you are giving people an excuse for bigotry and hatred - you might think that they are the problem and not you in singing it but why encourage it in the first place . The word is not ours to own its far from unique and it hasn't made the world a better place like some people seem to think instead it now continues the agenda which really ought to be consigned to the past

To the extent that any football chant can make the world a better place, if you dismiss Jewish people finding solidarity in a mixed collective experience then you're missing something.

Sadly anti-semitism is not consigned to the past.