The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 20/21/22nd June 2014

[fecka]

While I certainly agree it's worth noting that we've been linked with primarily LCB's this summer, I cannot fathom a club willing to pay what Levy would ask for Vertonghen would do so after the season he's just had in regard to his mentality. Ever since @Barry Mead made the point a couple days ago in another thread, I've gone back and forth because of this reason.

My guess though at the moment is we're looking at moving both Dawson and Kaboul on. They've already become liabilities, and will only become more so with the demands Poch's tactics place on the situation. I think we're looking at bringing Lovren in to pair Verts for first choice, and Moreno to compete with Verts thereby allowing Vlad to slide back to his natural position to press Lovren. Everyone plays their natural position, and that's an extremely athletic CB corps capable of handling the unique stress of Poch/Bielsa tactics.

I don't think Caulker's coming back. If we wanted him, I think we'd have done it by now.

Dawson is probably staying because of who and what he is to the club but I wouldn't be surprised to see Jan and especially Kaboul go.

 

[DaSpurs]

Dawson is probably staying because of who and what he is to the club but I wouldn't be surprised to see Jan and especially Kaboul go.

I've been saying that for Dawson for at least a couple years now, but I think the time has come such that Levy may be tempted by offers if the rumors of interest are true. His value is only set to sharply decline from here on, especially since he'd likely struggle pretty heavily in a Poch system. No pace to adequately cover the gap between the WB and CM's especially if it's played in-behind as the system prompts, not ball-playing, and not even remotely an accurate vertical passer. I think his time has finally run out at Spurs, God love him for his devotion and service to us though.

 

[fecka]

I've been saying that for Dawson for at least a couple years now, but I think the time has come such that Levy may be tempted by offers if the rumors of interest are true. His value is only set to sharply decline from here on, especially since he'd likely struggle pretty heavily in a Poch system. No pace to adequately cover the gap between the WB and CM's especially if it's played in-behind as the system prompts, not ball-playing, and not even remotely an accurate vertical passer. I think his time has finally run out at Spurs, God love him for his devotion and service to us though.

I don't think we would let him go right now. He's so loyal to the club that he probably wouldn't mind doing a job as a third or fourth CB and because he's homegrown, english and the current captain he provides a lot off the pitch as well. He's not declined enough to not be useful at all and I think both Poch and Levy knows this but you provide valid points that could prove to become true. I guess we'll just see what happens from here.

 

[SpurSince57]

If you're not enthused with the ITK just don't bother to comment. We're here to discuss the ITK not question the actual quality of it.

Pretty simple really.

If we had ITK that we were putting in a bid for Kompany we'd definitely be questioning its quality.

 

[SpurSince57]

I've been saying that for Dawson for at least a couple years now, but I think the time has come such that Levy may be tempted by offers if the rumors of interest are true. His value is only set to sharply decline from here on, especially since he'd likely struggle pretty heavily in a Poch system. No pace to adequately cover the gap between the WB and CM's especially if it's played in-behind as the system prompts, not ball-playing, and not even remotely an accurate vertical passer. I think his time has finally run out at Spurs, God love him for his devotion and service to us though.

We had ITK that Dawson was staying a couple of weeks back, and when it comes to pace none of our CBs, Vlad possibly excluded, is really quick enough for a high line.

 

[DaSpurs]

We had ITK that Dawson was staying a couple of weeks back, and when it comes to pace none of our CBs, Vlad possibly excluded, is really quick enough for a high line.

I agree. This is partially why I'm so much of the opinion I'd like to see Capoue as first choice ahead of Vertonghen if either are still here come September. His game-reading ability and mobility would be extremely beneficial in that position, while if I had my choice I'd have Holtby ahead of Lovren to allow Walker and Lamela/Townsend to get a bit higher and involved.

 

[Snarfalicious]

Even though it appears obvious, the ITK is good to hear.

We desperately need to upgrade our backline and all of us know that. So, being interested in possibly 2 CBs is a good start. Rojo would be a nice start in my mind. Lovren would be lovely as well. Verts/Rojo + Lovren/Chiriches sounds like an incredibly well-balanced CB group.

 

[DaSpurs]

Even though it appears obvious, the ITK is good to hear.

We desperately need to upgrade our backline and all of us know that. So, being interested in possibly 2 CBs is a good start. Rojo would be a nice start in my mind. Lovren would be lovely as well. Verts/Rojo + Lovren/Chiriches sounds like an incredibly well-balanced CB group.

I'm torn between my preference of Moreno and Rojo. I very much like that Rojo can provide cover at LB, but conversely I especially love that Moreno is already familiar with Poch and tactics. However, I do feel this second advantage is somewhat negated by bringing in Lovren.

 

[DaSpurs]

Our first signing should be a LB! This feels so similar to a few seasons ago when we could have progressed if we had just bought a striker (after Berba and Keane left) It was a position everyone knew we needed to fill but we didn't. Now that position is a LB and it seems like we're linked with every other position but a LB

I think there's a couple factors that need to be considered here:

1) Quality CB's have surpassed strikers IMO as the most difficult and specific position to find in the modern game. They require the most specific physical traits of any field position, and the direction of the game is evolving directly against those traits because they're historically cumbersome-inducing and the game has become very fast and very full-field.

2) Poch's tactics place very specific demands and stresses on his CB's. In fact, I would argue they're the most crucial position on the pitch in his system. Therefore, we need a very specific type of player.

So you see, it's very important in lieu of the context of the market that we prioritize this position. It's not quite as simple as just addressing position by need, supply and demand have to be accounted for.

 

[Snarfalicious]

I'm torn between my preference of Moreno and Rojo. I very much like that Rojo can provide cover at LB, but conversely I especially love that Moreno is already familiar with Poch and tactics. However, I do feel this second advantage is somewhat negated by bringing in Lovren.

Like you said, I see Lovren as the best, realistic answer to a partner for Vertonghen. So, with a LCB like Vertonghen we have that ability to get Verts doing what he did best in 2012/13 as opposed to his more static role in 2013/14. And, should we bring in Rojo, he could allow for Chiriches to have more freedom at the RCB position. It kind of goes hand in hand. Rojo and Chiriches could honestly become just as good of a partnership as Verts/Lovren. It'd definitely make the CB position fun to watch again.

 

[Mr Pink]

If we had ITK that we were putting in a bid for Kompany we'd definitely be questioning its quality.

Until that day actually comes...

 

[SpurSince57]

Until that day actually comes...

However, the point remains that questioning the believability of ITK is very different from simply complaining that it's telling us something we could have figured out for ourselves, as has happened today.

 

[DaSpurs]

Like you said, I see Lovren as the best, realistic answer to a partner for Vertonghen. So, with a LCB like Vertonghen we have that ability to get Verts doing what he did best in 2012/13 as opposed to his more static role in 2013/14. And, should we bring in Rojo, he could allow for Chiriches to have more freedom at the RCB position. It kind of goes hand in hand. Rojo and Chiriches could honestly become just as good of a partnership as Verts/Lovren. It'd definitely make the CB position fun to watch again.

Yeah I agree, I too like the idea of bringing in another lefty to allow Vlad to slide back to his natural position. However, both Moreno and Rojo provide this benefit. The question is to the Poch and Baldini, do they prefer the cover at LB (will obviously have to consider realism in regard to LB targets) or a player already familiar with Poch's unusual tactics?

Another advantage to Rojo of course is it may provide a door to getting in bed with that academy. We seem to have already developed a favorable relationship with Ajax, if we could also do so with Sporting then we'd have an in with two of the best academies on the planet.

 

[Mr Pink]

However, the point remains that questioning the believability of ITK is very different from simply complaining that it's telling us something we could have figured out for ourselves, as has happened today.

Well yeah ok, but you would think any ITK would be welcomed given the lack of it over the last two weeks or so. What's the point in complaining about it - rhetorically speaking of course.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Our first signing should be a LB! This feels so similar to a few seasons ago when we could have progressed if we had just bought a striker (after Berba and Keane left) It was a position everyone knew we needed to fill but we didn't. Now that position is a LB and it seems like we're linked with every other position but a LB

The first signing doesn't have to be a left back so long as we sign one during the window. If it's Rojo (as is being reported more and more) then it will not be made until after the Argies exit the WC.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Dawson is probably staying because of who and what he is to the club but I wouldn't be surprised to see Jan and especially Kaboul go.

"to the club" i see him as a loyal player who AVB tired to sell. Credit to him is that he stuck around and fought for a place in the side.

"what he is to the club" is a slow, no pace center half who one Harry Redknapp would pay handsomely for.

I don't dislike Dawson and admire loyalty in any player, but if this side is to make progress Dawson should be no part of it come kick off of the new season. For me he and Kabul will be the ones going and the talk of Verts going is just fantasy.

 

[DaSpurs]

"to the club" i see him as a loyal player who AVB tired to sell. Credit to him is that he stuck around and fought for a place in the side.

"what he is to the club" is a slow, no pace center half who one Harry Redknapp would pay handsomely for.

I don't dislike Dawson and admire loyalty in any player, but if this side is to make progress Dawson should be no part of it come kick off of the new season. For me he and Kabul will be the ones going and the talk of Verts going is just fantasy.

I agree that it's most likely Dawson and Kaboul on the out, but the plausibility of Vertonghen being included in those departing given the CB's we've been most strongly linked with are all comfortable at LCB is worth discussing indeed. I do ultimately believe the plan is to have Vertonghen/new LCB and new RCB/Chiriches, but I still wouldn't refer to the chance of Vertonghen leaving as "just fantasy."

 

[DaSpurs]

I'm certain we'll have 5 CBs next season. It was the second biggest squad error last season to agree to AVB's preference to only having 4. (the biggest obviously being only having Danny Rose as LB)

It may be hard to give game time to all 5, which is why having an older, experienced head who knows they won't play much as that 5th choice makes sense. Gallas played the role well. And even Nelsen made sense in that regard (if no others).

I think you're absolutely right, but this depends on what happens with Capoue and Fryers. I'd very much like to see us keep Capoue as I think he'd be marvelous at CDM under Poch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Fryers loaned out this season. Again, further evidence can be given to this by the fact we seem to be adamantly looking for another LCB. There was also a post on here about a month ago (I'm aware this could be entirely fabricated of course, but there isn't really a reason to lie about it), in which the poster said he had a conversation with Fryers' girlfriend with him in the car and she said he'd be leaving this summer.

But anyway, I do think five senior, dedicated CB's would give us the most cover and I do think Dawson would stay even if he were 5th choice.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Well yeah ok, but you would think any ITK would be welcomed given the lack of it over the last two weeks or so. What's the point in complaining about it - rhetorically speaking of course.

Which is exactly why it was posted. Well, that and to show that maybe things are slowly picking up on the ITK front. It's been far too quiet for far too long and beggars can't be choosers. You'd think something, anything at all would receive some sort of enthusiasm.

And in addition, as has been said many times before, sometimes info from a different source, although not new and erection enducing does at least give some extra weight to any previous utterings.

And in addition addition, we've had people give ITK in the past that's been something that's already out there and the piss taking resulted in an abrupt end to the passing of info. This source's next snippet might be a lot more juicy, who knows? This piss taking or whatever you want to call it is something that adds nothing to the thread but could take a lot away from it.

We've made our policy on that quite clear, we don't want people put off from posting because one or two herberts don't understand this, so like it or not, anyone wanting the right to moan/complain/take the piss is in for a very long wait.

 

[sammy j]

Itk is getting less it seems by the season