Ratings Vs Sunderland & MOTM

[Bus-Conductor]

The other point I'd make is that the subs did play well , but as many here have said , S'land were tiring then . Townsend(6) could get past his FB and Lamela (6)could contribute well. These 2 players don't like defenders permanently up their arse as happens in many Prem matches . and they enjoyed the space they got today...But its going too far to say that they should deffo start matches on the basis of their 20 mins at S'land imo .

Ding dong, sanity calling.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Good analysis as always. Thanks! Esp. the Dier part does make sense. Do you think it could work out better with let's say Rose and Trippier more up the field, so we could do a 3-6-1 e.g. in attack? (Not that Poch would start to be inventive)

Maybe in a 433 with Dier sitting centrally of the cm3 ?

 

[Japhet]

Just as an aside, 2 players so often berated here put in very good performances. Kaboul and Defoe really didn't look like the players so many were desperate to get rid of.

 

[Mr Pink]

Attack of the Clones

How ironic that we get our first three points of the season from our most disjointed and incoherent performance. An even bigger irony is that such chaotic and incoherent mess was won courtesy of one of the one of, if not, the most beautiful goals we have scored under Pochettono's reign. A sequence that began with Mason on the left side of the pitch, he then interchanges a few more passes whilst moving right and then centrally, and the move ends with a sequence again, initiated by Mason in which he exchanges passes with Lamela, Kane (who probably for the first time in the game takes just one touch), Lamela again (with a sweet incisive through ball) and runs through and dinks the keeper.

If there was a better goal scored this weekend I haven't seen it.

It was a beautiful moment of clarity in what had been a Jackson Pollock of game. It was like Pochettino had gone to the ACME robot factory and ordered 4 clones to play in the attacking roles. As a result we had four incredibly similar types of player, all doing incredibly similar things continually. Four tall poles of players often taking poor first touches, then trying to run blindly through walls of players. There was no subtlety, no craft, no vision, just four battering rams blundering away.

There was also no control in midfield. I was castigated for laughing at Dier's choice of MOTM by the Sky idiot pundit. But he was part of the problem not a solution worthy an award. He is incapable of pressing the ball higher up the pitch because he so easy to turn when there is plenty of pitch. Yes, he made 8 tackles, but 6 of them were made in our 25 yard defensive zone. And the guy received the ball 20 times. 20 times. (For comparison, Mason received the ball 68 times) He completed 23 of his measly 26 passes in the defensive and middle third.

People with limited imagination are accusing me of some kind of agenda against Dier. Let me make this clear. I like Dier very much as a young, developing CB. I think he has good qualities to make an excellent CB. He's robust, tenacious, mature for his age, and for a CB he's got decent technique and level of comfort on the ball required.

But as a CM in a CM2 in Pochetino's "philosophy" he is not right. We need two who can press, continually look to receive the ball, continually move it, be dynamic and multi-functional. Most of all they need to be pro-active, not just reactive, and Dier is just too reactive for this system

Of course you will never get two Matic's, never get the perfect "2", there will always be some kind of compromise and variation of skills in the 2, but with Dier it is too lopsided in functionality, and today, his lack of dynamism and inability to show for the ball was a major factor in why we struggled throughout to exert any control, or cohesion onto this game. For much of the first 60 minutes it was like a 514 formation, with everyone chasing the ball up one end, then when those fuckwits lost it almost immediately it was chased up the other where Sunderland's fuckwits lost it, repeated adfinitum.

One of the few shining lights for us in this game was Mason. In amongst all the headless chaos, whilst not exactly a tower, he was at least a diminutive beacon of footballing sanity. How the hell he didn't get MOTM I have no idea. Vertonghen was also pretty good in amongst all the chaos.

Pochettino's substitutions continue to baffle. That game was crying out for some brains, a player who would put his foot on the ball, play with his head up, show for the ball and do something constructive with it. I appreciate that Townsend did OK when he came on, and Lamela, not for the first time, provided the vital moment of incision. But I would have had Carroll on for the ever decreasing Alli (who IMO was even less influential than the infuriating Chadli) before considering either of them. He would have provided the industry and composure needed and is also at least as capable as Lamela and far more likely than Townsend to provide a moment of incision too.

In game that desperately needed an intelligence infusion, Pochettino's diagnosis seemed to be to make an intelligence extraction, or at best just exchange fuckwit fluids.

The more the second half wore on, largely thanks to Mason's industry and, eventually, ingenuity we were exerting more sustained control and Sunderland's threat had pretty much blown itself out. But lets not kid ourselves, they are one of the few genuinely shit teams left in this league, and if we'd played with proper midfielders - even gone with a 3 with Dier sitting in the middle of Mason and Winks say, we could and should have had more control over that game. That game could have been lost before we'd even had a shot on target.

There was no cohesive work with or without the ball for the first hour. They were allowed acres of space at times as people like Chadli & Alli stood off and Dier retreated to the edge of our 18 yard line.

With Bentaleb out, I pray Mason recovers quickly or we may be seeing Dier and Wimmer in CM next week.

Individual mutterings:

Lloris - OK

Walker - Was decent generally today and got in a good position and picked out Son.

Alderweireld - OK

Vertonghen - Pretty composed game amongst the hubbub.

Davies - Meh

Dier - Some last ditch tackling but not a whole lot else.

Mason - The more I replay his goal in my head the higher in my all time favourite goals it gets. This was a wonderful footballing goal, the likes of which we don't score too often. He was constantly in motion and his industry got what it deserved. Easily the MOTM

Chadli - Infuriating as he is, and fuck knows he is, I thought he was our liveliest attacker today. It's just a shame that his brain/foot coordination lets him down frequently when it matters the most. He did play a couple of good balls, like the one that put Walker in.

Alli - I think he was pretty poor today, didn't contribute enough with or without the ball and should have been first off. And his pressing is very reminiscent of Chadli's. I don't know why he was preferred to Carroll in that 1o role. Whilst not perfect, Carroll is vastly more experienced, a clever little player who plays with his head up and is constantly showing and looking to play clever, progressive, vertical passes.

Son - He put in effort, but like all our attackers, was pretty ineffectual and lacking in poise today.

Kane - Lots of huff and puff with lots of poor decisions too. He's got to do the simple thing sometimes instead of trying to be the fucking hero. The one time he laid off a simple one touch ball we scored.

Subs - All did OK, with Lamela once again proving to be one of our few truly incisive footballers.

BC i agree with what you're saying regarding Dier, well to an extent anyway. But how do you explain the fact that we looked very good against Everton - and Dier, IMHO, was one of the reasons why we controlled that game so well. Yes profligacy saw us drop the points but overall the performance was impressive - and Everton are a pretty powerful outfit in all honesty.

I do think you're right when you say he's 'too reactive', On the ball we look less fluid, something I ,maintained prior to the Everton game. But we have tightened up somewhat and he is improving us defensively I think.

The biggest problem we have is that we don't have enough players willing to break the lines. Today's goal was glorious and obviously epitomizes that. Mason injects the tempo by passing and then looking to move immediately....Kane and Lamela respond by playing the ball first time - and Mason continues to move, that's what break the lines and sets him free.

Its that combination of urgency, quick first time passing and the right movement that will open teams up. A beautiful goal, but we don't see enough of this type of play and it requires the old pass and move. We see far too much, pass, pass and pass without that purposeful movement after the pass.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Attack of the Clones

How ironic that we get our first three points of the season from our most disjointed and incoherent performance. An even bigger irony is that such chaotic and incoherent mess was won courtesy of one of the one of, if not, the most beautiful goals we have scored under Pochettono's reign. A sequence that began with Mason on the left side of the pitch, he then interchanges a few more passes whilst moving right and then centrally, and the move ends with a sequence again, initiated by Mason in which he exchanges passes with Lamela, Kane (who probably for the first time in the game takes just one touch), Lamela again (with a sweet incisive through ball) and runs through and dinks the keeper.

If there was a better goal scored this weekend I haven't seen it.

It was a beautiful moment of clarity in what had been a Jackson Pollock of game. It was like Pochettino had gone to the ACME robot factory and ordered 4 clones to play in the attacking roles. As a result we had four incredibly similar types of player, all doing incredibly similar things continually. Four tall poles of players often taking poor first touches, then trying to run blindly through walls of players. There was no subtlety, no craft, no vision, just four battering rams blundering away.

There was also no control in midfield. I was castigated for laughing at Dier's choice of MOTM by the Sky idiot pundit. But he was part of the problem not a solution worthy an award. He is incapable of pressing the ball higher up the pitch because he so easy to turn when there is plenty of pitch. Yes, he made 8 tackles, but 6 of them were made in our 25 yard defensive zone. And the guy received the ball 20 times. 20 times. (For comparison, Mason received the ball 68 times) He completed 23 of his measly 26 passes in the defensive and middle third.

People with limited imagination are accusing me of some kind of agenda against Dier. Let me make this clear. I like Dier very much as a young, developing CB. I think he has good qualities to make an excellent CB. He's robust, tenacious, mature for his age, and for a CB he's got decent technique and level of comfort on the ball required.

But as a CM in a CM2 in Pochetino's "philosophy" he is not right. We need two who can press, continually look to receive the ball, continually move it, be dynamic and multi-functional. Most of all they need to be pro-active, not just reactive, and Dier is just too reactive for this system

Of course you will never get two Matic's, never get the perfect "2", there will always be some kind of compromise and variation of skills in the 2, but with Dier it is too lopsided in functionality, and today, his lack of dynamism and inability to show for the ball was a major factor in why we struggled throughout to exert any control, or cohesion onto this game. For much of the first 60 minutes it was like a 514 formation, with everyone chasing the ball up one end, then when those fuckwits lost it almost immediately it was chased up the other where Sunderland's fuckwits lost it, repeated adfinitum.

One of the few shining lights for us in this game was Mason. In amongst all the headless chaos, whilst not exactly a tower, he was at least a diminutive beacon of footballing sanity. How the hell he didn't get MOTM I have no idea. Vertonghen was also pretty good in amongst all the chaos.

Pochettino's substitutions continue to baffle. That game was crying out for some brains, a player who would put his foot on the ball, play with his head up, show for the ball and do something constructive with it. I appreciate that Townsend did OK when he came on, and Lamela, not for the first time, provided the vital moment of incision. But I would have had Carroll on for the ever decreasing Alli (who IMO was even less influential than the infuriating Chadli) before considering either of them. He would have provided the industry and composure needed and is also at least as capable as Lamela and far more likely than Townsend to provide a moment of incision too.

In game that desperately needed an intelligence infusion, Pochettino's diagnosis seemed to be to make an intelligence extraction, or at best just exchange fuckwit fluids.

The more the second half wore on, largely thanks to Mason's industry and, eventually, ingenuity we were exerting more sustained control and Sunderland's threat had pretty much blown itself out. But lets not kid ourselves, they are one of the few genuinely shit teams left in this league, and if we'd played with proper midfielders - even gone with a 3 with Dier sitting in the middle of Mason and Winks say, we could and should have had more control over that game. That game could have been lost before we'd even had a shot on target.

There was no cohesive work with or without the ball for the first hour. They were allowed acres of space at times as people like Chadli & Alli stood off and Dier retreated to the edge of our 18 yard line.

With Bentaleb out, I pray Mason recovers quickly or we may be seeing Dier and Wimmer in CM next week.

Individual mutterings:

Lloris - OK

Walker - Was decent generally today and got in a good position and picked out Son.

Alderweireld - OK

Vertonghen - Pretty composed game amongst the hubbub.

Davies - Meh

Dier - Some last ditch tackling but not a whole lot else.

Mason - The more I replay his goal in my head the higher in my all time favourite goals it gets. This was a wonderful footballing goal, the likes of which we don't score too often. He was constantly in motion and his industry got what it deserved. Easily the MOTM

Chadli - Infuriating as he is, and fuck knows he is, I thought he was our liveliest attacker today. It's just a shame that his brain/foot coordination lets him down frequently when it matters the most. He did play a couple of good balls, like the one that put Walker in.

Alli - I think he was pretty poor today, didn't contribute enough with or without the ball and should have been first off. And his pressing is very reminiscent of Chadli's. I don't know why he was preferred to Carroll in that 1o role. Whilst not perfect, Carroll is vastly more experienced, a clever little player who plays with his head up and is constantly showing and looking to play clever, progressive, vertical passes.

Son - He put in effort, but like all our attackers, was pretty ineffectual and lacking in poise today.

Kane - Lots of huff and puff with lots of poor decisions too. He's got to do the simple thing sometimes instead of trying to be the fucking hero. The one time he laid off a simple one touch ball we scored.

Subs - All did OK, with Lamela once again proving to be one of our few truly incisive footballers.

I agree with a lot of this. Definitely don't get the Alli love in. He seems weak on the ball, lax at pressing, makes poor decisions in critical positions and runs into traffic a lot. I think he definitely has talent and a lot of these problems will probably be ironed out with experience. His performance today suggests he's not really ready to start prem games yet IMO.

 

[Wellspurs]

Contender for Man of the Match must be Younes Kaboul.

Closely followed by JD...

 

[TimmyShee]

I agree with a lot of this. Definitely don't get the Alli love in. He seems weak on the ball, lax at pressing, makes poor decisions in critical positions and runs into traffic a lot. I think he definitely has talent and a lot of these problems will probably be ironed out with experience. His performance today suggests he's not really ready to start prem games yet IMO.

It's the role he's being asked to play, the central of the three ACMs is such a key and difficult position, requires football intelligence, creativity and some experience. Today he was up against a team playing two defensive mids, too much to ask IMO, play him on either side or coming from deeper, we only have two players with the creativity to play there, Erikson and Lamela.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Maybe in a 433 with Dier sitting centrally of the cm3 ?

Dier
Mason Bentaleb
​

would be lovely IMO. It's a shame it won't happen.

BC i agree with what you're saying regarding Dier, well to an extent anyway. But how do you explain the fact that we looked very good against Everton - and Dier, IMHO, was one of the reasons why we controlled that game so well. Yes profligacy saw us drop the points but overall the performance was impressive - and Everton are a pretty powerful outfit in all honesty.

I do think you're right when you say he's 'too reactive', On the ball we look less fluid, something I ,maintained prior to the Everton game. But we have tightened up somewhat and he is improving us defensively I think.

It could just be coincidental (I doubt it), but our two clean sheets this season have coincided with Dier's best performances as a defensive midfielder...

 

[beats1]

Dier
Mason Bentaleb
​

would be lovely IMO. It's a shame it won't happen.

Like against Everton

Even though mason was listed as a AM, he was playing very deep and alongside his CM making trying to join the attackers

 

[theShiznit]

I agree with a lot of this. Definitely don't get the Alli love in. He seems weak on the ball, lax at pressing, makes poor decisions in critical positions and runs into traffic a lot. I think he definitely has talent and a lot of these problems will probably be ironed out with experience. His performance today suggests he's not really ready to start prem games yet IMO.

A couple of nutmegs tends to cloud the judgement of some. Showing bits of flair is all well and good but there has to be some substance to go with the style

Would have Carroll and Pritchard ahead of him in the pecking order ATM.

 

[Blake Griffin]

alli's not a #10, hopefully poch figures that one out quickly.

 

[guiltyparty]

alli's not a #10, hopefully poch figures that one out quickly.

Jenas: The New Class

 

[jonnyp]

Lloris 7
Walker 7
Toby 6 - Too easy to beat on several occasions.
Verthongen 7
Davis 6.5
Dier 8
Mason 8.5
Chadli 3
Alli 6
Son 4
Kane 4

Lamela 7.5
Townsend 7.5

 

[NEVILLEB]

Mason made the win happen. Real positive intent on most things he does.

 

[Francis Gibbs]

Alli motm for me the only one worth watching ...mason took his goal well and Dier covered well on a couple of occasions.
The rest outside a decent Townsend cameo was as dull as ditchwater.

 

[mpickard2087]

Just got back from Sunderland. Long old day.

I was in corporate for the match and amongst a number of Sunderland fans, so my viewpoint and attention was maybe skewered a little bit, but I thought that was a fairly lamentable effort from both teams for the most part. Apparently we dominated the possession stats, but what I watched that, particularly first hour, was like Redknapp-era at times in terms of openness and end-to-end uncontrolled football. Without the energy and intent in attack that at least partly made up for it in those days gone by... I thought it was very turgid. The football was predictable, narrow in the extreme and blunt. Very blunt. Without the ball the pressing was basically non-existent. Most of our players were ok but it was another one of those games where you watch them and it seems they are playing on autopilot or with the handbrake on.
Sunderland were no better but at least had Defoe's pace against the carthorse Alderweireld and so had at least some threat. Thank god you aren't supporting them though is all I can tell you lot, we think we have it bad but a number of their fans said that's the best they have played this season by far. Yikes...

It's a funny old game though, as after sitting through 82 minutes of uninspiring dull and fairly talentless proceedings we then went and scored one of the best team goals I can recall from us in a long, long time. Pass and move, one touch, quick passes, cut through the opposition and then the finish at the end. It was a superb goal and one that leaves you with a glimmer of hope. We can do it, more please!

Lloris - Dodgy distribution at times. Not a huge amount to do.

Walker - Ok. A couple of silly moments. Should have had a penalty I thought.

Alderweireld - Second best to Defoe whether that be tussling at close quarters or in a straight footrace over open ground. I don't think he has been as good as some make out so far.

Vertonghen - Decent.

Davies - His style of play annoys me, but ok.

Dier - Makes some useful challenges in and around the box. I agree with what BC has written that he doesn't offer a whole lot else . A lot of what he has done, in this game and the Everton one, I'm fairly confident could be done at centre half.

Mason - Best of the bunch. Energetic and saw a lot of the ball. Finished off a great team move.

Son - Took up some good positions and drifted into space well a few times, but a typical debut in a lot of ways. Didn't seem on the wavelength of others, played things pretty safe and the balance wasn't right in our attack. Hopefully more impact in the coming weeks.

Alli - Was very advanced, playing as a second striker for large amounts of his time on the pitch. I think he struggled a bit, covers ground but often took the wrong option or got crowded out. Think he needs to be played deeper.

Chadli - Pretty standard Chadli performance where he was quiet and insipid. Wasted a couple of chances though which meant he didn't have a goal to his name to redeem himself somewhat. Poor game.

Kane - His link up play was generally ok. Had a tough old battle against their centrebacks and kept plugging away. He's desperate for a goal (in a Spurs shirt) though you sense. He's also getting far too predictable, especially in terms of always wanting it on his right foot. He needs to re-think and analyse whats going 'wrong' currently, as defenders are working him out a bit and he needs to vary what he does and use his left foot (which we know he can use to a very decent standard) more and threaten to go both ways.

Townsend - This was a decent sub and worked well. His introduction I felt meant we had a better balance about us. More width, it decluttered the centre of the pitch a bit, allowed us to switch the play and we had someone who was all of a sudden taking his man on and making them do some one v one defending. Busy cameo and lets hope he builds on it.

Lamela - Again a sub that worked. Not something that Poch always gets right. Good pass in the build up to the goal.

Carroll - n/a.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BC i agree with what you're saying regarding Dier, well to an extent anyway. But how do you explain the fact that we looked very good against Everton - and Dier, IMHO, was one of the reasons why we controlled that game so well. Yes profligacy saw us drop the points but overall the performance was impressive - and Everton are a pretty powerful outfit in all honesty.

I do think you're right when you say he's 'too reactive', On the ball we look less fluid, something I ,maintained prior to the Everton game. But we have tightened up somewhat and he is improving us defensively I think.

The biggest problem we have is that we don't have enough players willing to break the lines. Today's goal was glorious and obviously epitomizes that. Mason injects the tempo by passing and then looking to move immediately....Kane and Lamela respond by playing the ball first time - and Mason continues to move, that's what break the lines and sets him free.

Its that combination of urgency, quick first time passing and the right movement that will open teams up. A beautiful goal, but we don't see enough of this type of play and it requires the old pass and move. We see far too much, pass, pass and pass without that purposeful movement after the pass.

I think Everton was a combination of things. I think Martinez was attempting his faux tactical pragmatism that he discovered by mistake against Southampton as a result they didn't really press well (Barry's hopeless at this anyway and is slow as fuck). Secondly we had Mason and Bentaleb on the pitch with Dier, this gave us much better control of the midfield. I think we generally played well as a team, I think we are better with Rose than Davies, and I think these things all helped, and Dier had a decent game, his only one as a CM IMO.

That really was a beautiful goal today. It was also an example of how it's not pure blistering pace that is required carve teams open. It was clever movement and quick thinking.

 

[Spurger King]

That really was a beautiful goal today. It was also an example of how it's not pure blistering pace that is required carve teams open. It was clever movement and quick thinking.

It felt instinctual. A lot of the time I get the impression that we over-think things in the final third, but that goal had the feeling of hours of training clicking into place.

 

[Mr Pink]

I think Everton was a combination of things. I think Martinez was attempting his faux tactical pragmatism that he discovered by mistake against Southampton as a result they didn't really press well (Barry's hopeless at this anyway and is slow as fuck). Secondly we had Mason and Bentaleb on the pitch with Dier, this gave us much better control of the midfield. I think we generally played well as a team, I think we are better with Rose than Davies, and I think these things all helped, and Dier had a decent game, his only one as a CM IMO.

That really was a beautiful goal today. It was also an example of how it's not pure blistering pace that is required carve teams open. It was clever movement and quick thinking.

Fair points. I guess with Dier dropping back a bit, and Mason doing likewise from the ten role....it was almost like a three in there anyway against EVerton?

 

[Mr Pink]

I loved the goal we scored at Anfield last season where Lamela and Eriksen exchanged before Lamela slid the ball through to Kane....today eclipsed that, that's how good the goal was.

But Lamela, in a central position both times, was the one who supplied the killer ball.

I would like to see him have a go in the ten role for a run of games. I'd put Eriksen left and leave Chadli as a bench option for the time being - when the former returns to fitness.