Pochetino Transfers – Erratic guesswork or long-term stroke of genius?

[Everlasting Seconds]

After three summer transfer windows with Pochettino at the club, it’s time for an overall recap. Total players in:


Vorm

Lopez


Davies

Dier

Yedlin

Fazio

Wimmer

Alderweireld

Trippier


Stambouli

Wanyama

Sissoko

Dele

N’Jie

N’Koudou

Son


Janssen


Before this TW, I largely anticipated 4-5 signings, and huge improvements on the overall match day squad of 18 players (as opposed to direct improvements on the starting 11). My expectations were spot on from an overall perspective.


However, throughout the window, I think the majority of SC posters had at least one signing they couldn’t quite get on board with, although we largely disagreed on which was that strange signing. Somebody wouldn’t want Wanyama (a signing I think was logical and rational), others find Sissoko strange (I sure do), and I’m not sure if anybody can say they know what to expect from N’Koudou. Janssen I think largely is accepted by now, but I’m certain there are one or two still choosing not to vocalise their scepticism.


One recurring topic throughout the summer was whether Pochettino deserves complete and utter trust in transfers, and that we as fans should blindly accept his choices, or whether there is still room for healthy uncertainty in this specific aspect of his reign.


I think the easiest answer is in looking at all signings under Pochettino. Since he came to Spurs, 17 senior players are signed. (Let us leave out for now which individual scout/coach probably was the most responsible for each signing, because I don’t think we can establish that player by player with any certainty).


Of said 17 signings, 4 are sold or on loan. Three were shipped out after only 12 months with the club. But more of a warning sign is that after 3 summers, at this specific point in time, only 2 players are absolutely part of the starting 11, and an additional 3 players are certainly in the mix for a starting 11 position. (Maybe Sissoko will be to, that remains to be seen IMO).

To sum up, 4 have left the club in some capacity, 5 are proven starting 11 calibre, and 8 play a bits-and-parts role in come capacity.


At this point, I think it is also relevant to look at youth players and academy graduates. This was supposedly a Pochettino forte when he signed for Spurs, and expectations were high when it came to inclusions of various academy household names in the senior squad. To this day, Pochettino has not advanced any academy graduate to become a given member of the match day squad. Hence, we cannot explain the above break down of squad status of new signings with extensive use of graduates.


I think there can be no doubt what so ever that we were in absolute need for a broader range of more reliable squad players back when Pochettino started. And he has navigated that challenge nicely, and we do have a more solid squad. But, I will maintain that thus far, Pochettino has not succeeded as well in coaching academy graduates and new signings alike into becoming fierce competitors for a slot in the starting line up. Reputedly, he has a coaching gene and an eye for developing players. IMO, I think he has an ability to develop certain kind of players, but he certainly has no universal coaching ability to improve any given player. (I’m still talking subjectively, but I see little improvement under Pochettino in players like Eriksen, Chadli Bentaleb, Mason (three of which have left).


I am certain that for the 2016/2017 season, this ability fans speak of to coach and develop players must come fully into fruition. I think Pochettino cannot fail at all in this aspect, or we will experience an underwhelming season. The summer window is shut, (stating the obvious) and we can’t improve more in that way. The only way we now can move forward towards success is if Pochettino’s coaching and development skills become far more hit, with no room for miss. Nail that, and we have a great season ahead. Keep almost hitting the nail, but not quite, with several players, and this will be a long and boring season, even with CL.


To get back to the question, must we as fans fully and utterly trust signings under Pochettino? Some have called for the results on the pitch being taken into account, and based on those, we should trust Pochettino has been the argument. To me, as long as there is no trophy won, not even a minor one, I don’t think the results alone can serve as only foundation of trust in the transfer market.


Moving forward, Pochettino must short term fully blossom into a coaching, developing manager, and long term hone his transfer approach even more. Only then will it make sense to call for giving him unconditional trust in transfer activities.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Supposedly Poch wasn't fully in control of transfers in 14/15.

 

[jimbo]

You ask whether we should accept his choice in transfers, but what choice do we have otherwise?

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

You ask whether we should accept his choice in transfers, but what choice do we have otherwise?

It's more about whether absolute trust is called for, or if there is room for any criticism or scepticism. If you've followed the transfer threads this summer, you'll have noted that it's a constant theme. Personally, I'm advocating that Pochettino's transfer record thus far is not a good argument for blindly trusting transfer decisions as we continue the various SC discussions.

 

[Galactico14]

I'm of the opinion all managers should have full control, after all it is their neck on the line when results don't go their way.

If you don't trust them to do it right why trust them to run your club at all?

As for his coaching I could point to rose, dier, dembele, lamela, Ali, I think have all developed hugely under his wing, are they a 'certain type'? you mention mason, bentaleb and Chadli as non improvers.. Perhaps as a coach he felt they were at their ceiling and has moved them on.

more importantly he has for the first time really since I can remember actually coached us into a TEAM, for that he gets my backing!

 

[davidmatzdorf]

It's not about trust or faith or criticism. It's about whether the manager has a clear plan and a definite idea of the kind of player who will fit his system and the kind of person who will fit into his team. This is more evident in the players we do not sign, despite them being available and fans gagging for them, than it is in the players who join us.

It's plain enough that Pochettino has general preferences, but is willing to make exceptions: young; strong; willing to train like a mad thing. But I think there is one area where he does not compromise, which is the personality and attitude of the player and his willingness to take instruction and fit into the greater team.

I've rarely seen a manager who has a clearer plan and strategy for building a squad.

 

[Gbspurs]

I suspect most managers transfers are a bit of both. You pick players that you believe have the attributes to succeed with your tactics but you can never be sure how well that player will adapt, their desire to improve or how they fit into the dressing room.

 

[The boy hoddle]

After three summer transfer windows with Pochettino at the club, it’s time for an overall recap. Total players in:


Vorm

Lopez


Davies

Dier

Yedlin

Fazio

Wimmer

Alderweireld

Trippier


Stambouli

Wanyama

Sissoko

Dele

N’Jie

N’Koudou

Son


Janssen


Before this TW, I largely anticipated 4-5 signings, and huge improvements on the overall match day squad of 18 players (as opposed to direct improvements on the starting 11). My expectations were spot on from an overall perspective.


However, throughout the window, I think the majority of SC posters had at least one signing they couldn’t quite get on board with, although we largely disagreed on which was that strange signing. Somebody wouldn’t want Wanyama (a signing I think was logical and rational), others find Sissoko strange (I sure do), and I’m not sure if anybody can say they know what to expect from N’Koudou. Janssen I think largely is accepted by now, but I’m certain there are one or two still choosing not to vocalise their scepticism.


One recurring topic throughout the summer was whether Pochettino deserves complete and utter trust in transfers, and that we as fans should blindly accept his choices, or whether there is still room for healthy uncertainty in this specific aspect of his reign.


I think the easiest answer is in looking at all signings under Pochettino. Since he came to Spurs, 17 senior players are signed. (Let us leave out for now which individual scout/coach probably was the most responsible for each signing, because I don’t think we can establish that player by player with any certainty).


Of said 17 signings, 4 are sold or on loan. Three were shipped out after only 12 months with the club. But more of a warning sign is that after 3 summers, at this specific point in time, only 2 players are absolutely part of the starting 11, and an additional 3 players are certainly in the mix for a starting 11 position. (Maybe Sissoko will be to, that remains to be seen IMO).

To sum up, 4 have left the club in some capacity, 5 are proven starting 11 calibre, and 8 play a bits-and-parts role in come capacity.


At this point, I think it is also relevant to look at youth players and academy graduates. This was supposedly a Pochettino forte when he signed for Spurs, and expectations were high when it came to inclusions of various academy household names in the senior squad. To this day, Pochettino has not advanced any academy graduate to become a given member of the match day squad. Hence, we cannot explain the above break down of squad status of new signings with extensive use of graduates.


I think there can be no doubt what so ever that we were in absolute need for a broader range of more reliable squad players back when Pochettino started. And he has navigated that challenge nicely, and we do have a more solid squad. But, I will maintain that thus far, Pochettino has not succeeded as well in coaching academy graduates and new signings alike into becoming fierce competitors for a slot in the starting line up. Reputedly, he has a coaching gene and an eye for developing players. IMO, I think he has an ability to develop certain kind of players, but he certainly has no universal coaching ability to improve any given player. (I’m still talking subjectively, but I see little improvement under Pochettino in players like Eriksen, Chadli Bentaleb, Mason (three of which have left).


I am certain that for the 2016/2017 season, this ability fans speak of to coach and develop players must come fully into fruition. I think Pochettino cannot fail at all in this aspect, or we will experience an underwhelming season. The summer window is shut, (stating the obvious) and we can’t improve more in that way. The only way we now can move forward towards success is if Pochettino’s coaching and development skills become far more hit, with no room for miss. Nail that, and we have a great season ahead. Keep almost hitting the nail, but not quite, with several players, and this will be a long and boring season, even with CL.


To get back to the question, must we as fans fully and utterly trust signings under Pochettino? Some have called for the results on the pitch being taken into account, and based on those, we should trust Pochettino has been the argument. To me, as long as there is no trophy won, not even a minor one, I don’t think the results alone can serve as only foundation of trust in the transfer market.


Moving forward, Pochettino must short term fully blossom into a coaching, developing manager, and long term hone his transfer approach even more. Only then will it make sense to call for giving him unconditional trust in transfer activities.

 

[WorcesterTHFC]

Supposedly Poch wasn't fully in control of transfers in 14/15.

That wouldn't surprise me, as Franco Baldini was with us until September 2015.

 

[The boy hoddle]

Great post got to say after chewing it over for the last couple days the glass is defo half full for us I feel if poch is what we believe he can be the future and indeed this season we will compete as much as anyone in this league but after supporting Spurs since 1969 what I really expect deep down is total misery but let's get behind the boys
Coys

 

[kaz Hirai]

Stambouli is the real stand out odd one, paid for and totally unwanted from the moment he got in the locker room

 

[mpickard2087]

Good post, agree with most of that.

 

[jimbo]

It's more about whether absolute trust is called for, or if there is room for any criticism or scepticism. If you've followed the transfer threads this summer, you'll have noted that it's a constant theme. Personally, I'm advocating that Pochettino's transfer record thus far is not a good argument for blindly trusting transfer decisions as we continue the various SC discussions.

Okay, well I agree with you that we should have criticism or scepticism about transfers, but that's more about us isn't it? Some people will be positive and some negative until proven right or wrong in their beliefs (some people won't accept proof of course).

I'm not sure it's right to call it all on Pochettino though. He's just one part of a bigger picture in our transfers I'm sure. And I still think that we should be careful about just how we go about any negative response, I'm convinced that booing certain players or calling for a particular substitution doesn't help the collective.

 

[ultimateloner]

I think poch mostly got his way. He likes power above all else. I think his preference is similar to mourinho.

I don't blame him for not promoting academy players. I think he has done his part. Mason/Townsend etx all got their chances to prove they are PL level. We moved them on because they lack the ability to get into our starting 11.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Mostly what I think Poch's coaching improved last season was the collective cohesion and collective work ethic, and that cohesion and work ethic bore some individual fruit. Our CM's weren't put under so much pressure, and therefore looked individually better, as did the full backs. But I also think Poch has improved some players individually.

Eriksen enormously. I think he was one of the best players in the PL last season, second assists, similar for key passes, goals, regularly seeing the ball 45-55 times a game, and though many criticise his tenacity, and rightly to a degree, at times he was our most intelligent pressers.

I think he has definitely improved Walker defensively (Walker saw 30% less of the ball last year - suggesting to me that Poch had worked hard on making Walker's decision making regarding when to bomb forward and when not to, better - and definitely made Dier a more competent CM than I thought possible and Dembele a more consistent one than I thought possible.

As far as trusting Poch in the transfer market, I hate that "If the manager wants him the chairman should back him" bollocks. Trusting one man to coach, oversee the day to day squad, match day manage then scout, analyse and and assess the merits of all purchases is a completely outdated notion. Firstly, those players will almost always end up committing the club to lucrative contracts that invariably outlive the manager who insisted on them. Secondly, unless you are buying a proven top class footballer, of which a club like us will almost never do, then the whole scouting, analysing, character assessment needs to be a very complex and thorough process. It's no good buying a very talented player who has personality issues or a history of causing problems behind the scenes if your philosophy is heavily dependent on team spirit etc.

We generally have to look for value, finding value isn't like buying Mikhitarian, Gundogen, Ibra etc. It's about a massive wholistic approach, scouting, analytics, background and character checks and assessing whether the player will fit the philosophy of the group etc.

So I personally don't see how any manager can do all that. IMO, the coach has to be a major part, and no player should be brought in that he isn't aware of, but he needs to understand his job is to be part of a recruitment team/process, a vital one, with a big say, but not the only say.

@Everlasting Seconds point about not turning any of some incredibly promising development players into regular first team - or close to - players, is very disappointing. I think some of the roles played by players purchased during his tenure - Yedlin, Trippier, Fazio, Stambouli, Son, Njie to name some - could have been replaced by players from the development group. They may not have had any greater success but wouldn't have been much less useful either and would have cost the grand total of nothing compared to the what 50m? (plus much more in wages) that lot cost, and would have served to encourage the best young players to stay or join our club - if they see a genuine pathway - and would have allowed to move up or on some youth players and thus keep progressing the best ones and not creating the log jam we've seen recently - with a couple of promising young players also departing.

I don't know what happened re Bentaleb, but the situation is enormously disappointing, I'm disappointed if Bentaleb hasn't handled himself well, but I'm also a bit disappointed that Poch didn't see the talent, potential and character the kid has and try harder to straighten him out - Maybe neither are to blame, Bentaleb just wanted to play and Poch didn't and that pissed Bentaleb off which pissed Poch off and the situation became untenable through no real fault of either ?

Big noises were made about Poch's willingness to work, improve and promote from within, this season we need to see some walking the walk, otherwise we are going to loose two or three of the best young players this club's produced for a long while (having already lost one).

11m Wanyama has won me over almost immediately (you know I'm a fucking soft touch for a busy ****) but only if Pochettino puts a footballer next to him.

But 30m for Sissoko I think is fucking mental. If the guy plays to his absolute maximum potential he will still only be worth about half that at best, and it's definitely another body in front of Marcus Edwards, who I genuinely hoped to see get on our bench and play in domestic cups this season, but having spent 22m on Son and 30m on Sissoko, what chance now ?

 

[terryalan]

bus conductor..................................But 30m for Sissoko I think is fucking mental. If the guy plays to his absolute maximum potential he will still only be worth about half that at best



Yanited paid 93 mil for Pogba who was not as good as him at the Euros. Is your opinion better than Joses? Lets just wait and see.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Mostly what I think Poch's coaching improved last season was the collective cohesion and collective work ethic, and that cohesion and work ethic bore some individual fruit. Our CM's weren't put under so much pressure, and therefore looked individually better, as did the full backs. But I also think Poch has improved some players individually.

Eriksen enormously. I think he was one of the best players in the PL last season, second assists, similar for key passes, goals, regularly seeing the ball 45-55 times a game, and though many criticise his tenacity, and rightly to a degree, at times he was our most intelligent pressers.

I think he has definitely improved Walker defensively (Walker saw 30% less of the ball last year - suggesting to me that Poch had worked hard on making Walker's decision making regarding when to bomb forward and when not to, better - and definitely made Dier a more competent CM than I thought possible and Dembele a more consistent one than I thought possible.

As far as trusting Poch in the transfer market, I hate that "If the manager wants him the chairman should back him" bollocks. Trusting one man to coach, oversee the day to day squad, match day manage then scout, analyse and and assess the merits of all purchases is a completely outdated notion. Firstly, those players will almost always end up committing the club to lucrative contracts that invariably outlive the manager who insisted on them. Secondly, unless you are buying a proven top class footballer, of which a club like us will almost never do, then the whole scouting, analysing, character assessment needs to be a very complex and thorough process. It's no good buying a very talented player who has personality issues or a history of causing problems behind the scenes if your philosophy is heavily dependent on team spirit etc.

We generally have to look for value, finding value isn't like buying Mikhitarian, Gundogen, Ibra etc. It's about a massive wholistic approach, scouting, analytics, background and character checks and assessing whether the player will fit the philosophy of the group etc.

So I personally don't see how any manager can do all that. IMO, the coach has to be a major part, and no player should be brought in that he isn't aware of, but he needs to understand his job is to be part of a recruitment team/process, a vital one, with a big say, but not the only say.

@Everlasting Seconds point about not turning any of some incredibly promising development players into regular first team - or close to - players, is very disappointing. I think some of the roles played by players purchased during his tenure - Yedlin, Trippier, Fazio, Stambouli, Son, Njie to name some - could have been replaced by players from the development group. They may not have had any greater success but wouldn't have been much less useful either and would have cost the grand total of nothing compared to the what 50m ? that lot cost, and would have served to encourage the best young players to stay or join our club - if they see a genuine pathway - and would have allowed to move up or on some youth players and thus keep progressing the best ones and not creating the log jam we've seen recently - with a couple of promising young players also departing.

I don't know what happened re Bentaleb, but the situation is enormously disappointing, I'm disappointed if Bentaleb hasn't handled himself well, but I'm also a bit disappointed that Poch didn't see the talent, potential and character the kid has and try harder to straighten him out - Maybe neither are to blame, Bentaleb just wanted to play and Poch didn't and that pissed Bentaleb off which pissed Poch off and the situation became untenable through no real fault of either ?

Big noises were made about Poch's willingness to work, improve and promote from within, this season we need to see some walking the walk, otherwise we are going to loose two or three of the best young players this club's produced for a long while (having already lost one).

11m Wanyama has won me over almost immediately (you know I'm a fucking soft touch for a busy ****) but only if Pochettino puts a footballer next to him.

But 30m for Sissoko I think is fucking mental. If the guy plays to his absolute maximum potential he will still only be worth about half that at best, and it's definitely another body in front of Marcus Edwards, who I genuinely hoped to see get on our bench and play in domestic cups this season, but having spent 22m on Son and 30m on Sissoko, what chance now ?

How has Wanyama won you over? That's the closest I've ever seen you admit you were wrong.

Also, who is the 'best young player' we have lost? Is it Veljkovic? If so, I don't think Poch liked him so it isn't a big deal.

 

[Reece]

I'm not sure but the 'Long term stroke of genius' is a great nickname

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How has Wanyama won you over? That's the closest I've ever seen you admit you were wrong.

Also, who is the 'best young player' we have lost? Is it Veljkovic? If so, I don't think Poch liked him so it isn't a big deal.

I still caveat that statement by "but only if Poch plays a footballer next to him"

For me football is all about balance (of skills and attributes) and blend.

I never said Wanyama was shit, just one dimensional, my gripe was that we have in Dier and Dembele already CM's who are decent defensively, risk averse, careful, slow tempo players, what I think we needed is someone in midfield to play some football, set some tempo, be able to take the ball under pressure and zip the ball forwards into the AM's and FB's, from an attacking point of via and help us retain the ball when we are leading games, starving the opposition rather than shelling back into the back four, ceding all control of the game and allowing them to build momentum.

I feared we were going to get 2 from Wanyama/Dier/Dembele - and still do - which I think is creatively and defensively too risk averse and lacking in progressive tempo for many games, will make us easier to stifle and won't really advance us as a team.

But if you put a Winks (or a Tolisso for example) next to Wanyama you get a better balance/blend of skills I believe and all of a sudden Wanyama's super dynamic pure hunter gathering becomes viable as it balances off someone like Winks dynamic metronomicity (my word).


Bentaleb. But also Pritchard, Veljkovic, Azzaoui and Edwards has offers from everywhere and not just the uber clubs, but smaller PL clubs offering him more playing time, it's why we saw him in pre-season after hardly playing any U21 football last year, the club have had to give him some assurances he'll be in and around the first team some of the time otherwise he wouldn't have signed a contract, but if he gets disenchanted he'll be off soon because there are big offers on the table for him already in terms of wages from elsewhere.

 

[SelbYido]

I'm not sure but the 'Long term stroke of genius' is a great nickname

As well as an adequate title for a niche porn film.

I imagine.