Player Watch Player Watch: Timo Werner

[jolsnogross]

Johnson is likely to be a nailed on starter midway through next season if he keeps developing. He's not some back up merchant unless things really stall out in his progression. We need him to have the penny drop and be a killer in terms of racking up goals and assists.

Werner, on the other hand, might not be salvageable. If he didn't miss so many howlers, we'd have quite a player there. But he does, very frequently, and often inexplicably. It must be psychological because he's shown he can do it, at least in one season in Germany. But his misses are ridiculous and affect his instincts as a reasonable footballer. Like those two chances vs Newcastle...anyone can mess up, but he does so in very odd and often spectacular ways.

Unless Ange thinks he can fix that, he's not worth keeping. And he really should show evidence for fixing it this season rather than taking a punt on next season. It's not so much the money, although his salary is ridiculous, it's filling space that really needs more end product.

 

[Styopa]

I think nearly everyone here agrees: of course he’s a good squad player but does he raise us a level? Not really. He’s a bit similar to Richarlison in that way. A really great, hard working guy to have around the squad, fits in, does his best for the team but they’re not players who drag you up a level, not for a top four team anyway.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Still think we need a gamechanging winger like a Nico Williams but yes Son and Werner as LW options next season would be ok, add a striker in front of Richy and add a Nico Williams level winger for the right side so Johnson becomes a very strong bench/rotation option then we should be cooking nicely.

is nico williams and his 3 goals this season that much of a game-changer?

i get the appeal, he's fast and he beats players but right now, that's largely where it ends.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

is nico williams and his 3 goals this season that much of a game-changer?

i get the appeal, he's fast and he beats players but right now, that's largely where it ends.

I disagree a little here mate. Nico has 13 assists and 6 goals in 32 games in all comps and that includes a two goals and an assist against Atelti and a goal and assist against Barca plus he was MOTM against Mallorca in the Copa Del Ray final grabbing an assist in the process and winning Athletic's first CDR in 40 years. He's on 8 assist in the league which puts him 1 behind Baena who is leading the charts with 9. I agree that he is raw and can improve his decision making but i think he is more then just being fast and beating people.

 

[dontcallme]

Werner has 2 goals, 3 assists plus the 2 own goal assists in 12 league games for us. 3 games was him coming on as a sub.

That's a pretty decent return.

 

[muppetman]

I think he's doing what the manager wants him to do and doing it largely well.

The lack of someone to get on the end of his crosses is a bigger issue for me at the moment.

 

[dontcallme]

I think he's doing what the manager wants him to do and doing it largely well.

The lack of someone to get on the end of his crosses is a bigger issue for me at the moment.

There was a stat earlier in the season the amount of goals Richarlison scores with 1-2 touches. I wonder if Richarlison will thrive playing alongside Werner.

 

[muppetman]

There was a stat earlier in the season the amount of goals Richarlison scores with 1-2 touches. I wonder if Richarlison will thrive playing alongside Werner.

That has to be the hope. Also, if Richy could occupy the CBs more, there would be more space and time for others to run onto the crosses.

 

[Blake Griffin]

I disagree a little here mate. Nico has 13 assists and 6 goals in 32 games in all comps and that includes a two goals and an assist against Atelti and a goal and assist against Barca plus he was MOTM against Mallorca in the Copa Del Ray final grabbing an assist in the process and winning Athletic's first CDR in 40 years. He's on 8 assist in the league which puts him 1 behind Baena who is leading the charts with 9. I agree that he is raw and can improve his decision making but i think he is more then just being fast and beating people.

extrapolate werner and johnson's stats over a season and multiple competitions then they're probably pretty similar, they've also forced a few own goals that don't show up in the stats but are just as valuable as an actual assist. bottom line number though is that he has 3 in 26 in the league this season, that's less than romero for context.

i guess i'm just not as high on these 1v1 iso wingers like williams and doku. to me it feels like the game stops when they get the ball and it's up to the rest of the team to react to whatever they end up doing. i get that he's elite in 1v1s but not enough comes after that, i find the rest of his game to be pretty slap-dash and the lack of output would leave us still heavily relying on one or two to get the majority of our goals. werner can't stand a player up 1v1 and beat them very often but he's very good at working enough space to get in a cross or a shot, it's just that the latter is often pretty wild but there's not a great deal of evidence to suggest williams is much better in this area either. maybe in time he can become that but i'm not overly convinced.

also i've just read that he's already on €200k a week at bilbao, which if true doesn't make a move seem likely.

 

[mil1lion]

I still would sign him but he shouldn't be a regular starter. He is every bit as useful for us as Lamela was under Poch.

 

[allatsea]

I still would sign him but he shouldn't be a regular starter. He is every bit as useful for us as Lamela was under Poch.

I assume he would have to take a significant drop in his supposed wages for us to sign him. Particularly if he is not to be a regular starter.

 

[Styopa]

I assume he would have to take a significant drop in his supposed wages for us to sign him. Particularly if he is not to be a regular starter.

I doubt he’ll take a big drop. Why would he? Players hardly ever do that. Not when they are in the prime age of their career anyway. Maybe if we offer him a big (as in longer) contract he will. But I really doubt he’s going to take a big pay cut to move here because he loves playing for Spurs so much.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

extrapolate werner and johnson's stats over a season and multiple competitions then they're probably pretty similar, they've also forced a few own goals that don't show up in the stats but are just as valuable as an actual assist. bottom line number though is that he has 3 in 26 in the league this season, that's less than romero for context.

i guess i'm just not as high on these 1v1 iso wingers like williams and doku. to me it feels like the game stops when they get the ball and it's up to the rest of the team to react to whatever they end up doing. i get that he's elite in 1v1s but not enough comes after that, i find the rest of his game to be pretty slap-dash and the lack of output would leave us still heavily relying on one or two to get the majority of our goals. werner can't stand a player up 1v1 and beat them very often but he's very good at working enough space to get in a cross or a shot, it's just that the latter is often pretty wild but there's not a great deal of evidence to suggest williams is much better in this area either. maybe in time he can become that but i'm not overly convinced.

also i've just read that he's already on €200k a week at bilbao, which if true doesn't make a move seem likely.

I don't think you can dismiss the assist stats and use goals as the bottom line as your assuming that goals are what is required by Valverde from Nico rather then assist. Which they aren't. If you watch Athletic you will see that Nico's primary role when he gets to the byline is to put in crosses rather then go for goal. This is backed up statistically by the large amount of crosses he puts into the box each match for which both in regards to number of crosses per game and the success rate he is more proficient then both our current wingers. And even if you did want to look at goals last season he got 9 goals and 6 assist in all comps which is very impressive for a 20 year old. I also think if your going to take into consideration forced own goals or errors then what is to say Nico hasn't also done the same. Werner has only managed to get 13 assists in all comps once and that took him 43 games, he's certainly had significantly higher scoring seasons tho but they all came from him playing CF rather then LW. In general it is a tricky one tho because of the amount of time spent between the two positions so its hard to get a fair comparison.

Johnson managed 2 goals and 1 assist in 12 games where he played from the wing last season. In all comps he got 10 goals and 3 assists but he played as a CF for 18 games. This season in 32 games he has 5 goals and 7 assists in all comps which is his best in the top flight and playing in a much better team. I do think this is also relevant, last three season's Athletic finished 8th, 7th and are currently 5th which would be their highest finish since the 2014 season. Nico isn't playing in a top club bu granted it is better then Forrest but certainly nowhere near Spurs.

Also another factor to keep in mind is penalties. I saw a metric, I think it was in the PL thread, that we have spent the most time with the ball in the opposition area without winning a pen. A large part for our lack of pens is our lack of 1v1 ability, if your not running at players your not asking questions and getting defenders to commit. For a team that intends to spend a lot of time in and around the opposition box having players that cause the opposition defenders to commit is a necessity in my eyes. Nico due to his excellent dribbling ability has won 3 pens this year which is the joint highest in the league, i'm not sure the last time I can remember us having a player who has won that many pens in a season for us, i'm guessing it must have been Kane or Son.

I guess i'm just trying to understand the logic of saying a player who has 13 assist all season, 8 of which are in the league putting him second in the charts, has scored 6 goals in all comps plus won a further 3 pens for a team that has been pretty mid table for the last few years equates to a lack of output.

Anyway my point wasn't that he is or isn't a game changer tho, he's only 21 and like I said he's still rough around the edges and needs to work on his decision making plus he needs to refine certain elements of his game. I agree with you that he isn't the finished article. In general I don't think there are many game changing players out there and often I think this sort of label does more harm then good especially for young players still developing. It builds unrealistic expectations. My point was having watched a lot of him I personally think you are underrating him by suggesting he is only a player who runs fast and dribbles. IMO he has a massive amount of potential, is already delivering creatively at a high level and could certainly develop into one of the best wingers in the world. If he does or not I have no idea, he's only 21 but I'd say looking at his statistics and watching him the signs are very encouraging IMO. But thats my opinion of course and I appreciate that you just don't rate him that highly.

I do agree with you in that I don't think he comes here tho, I don't think it would even be a money thing. I think he is currently playing well in a team with his brother and lots of major clubs are already after him. Barca desperately want him, even tho they can't afford him, amongst others and I don't think he will be in any rush to run out the door. He is only 21, already a key player in his current team and knows he will have many chances in his future to pick the best club for him. I just don't see any way he decides to come to us.

As for 1v1, In general I agree with @Nick-TopSpursMan who is constantly saying that a WF with good dribbling ability is paramount for our tactics. I think you need 1v1 players against teams that park the bus, I think they are essential. If your wide option's are primarily speed then against a team that sit deep they essentially have nowhere to run. I also don't think being good 1v1 makes you indirect, I think there are lots of very good 1v1 players who are very direct. It is true that there are others that certainly overcomplicate and slow things down but that is more about in game intelligence and speed of thought then anything else.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Nailed it @Ghost Hardware

All the best teams in the world have a minimum of 1 but more often multiple attacking players who are strong at 1v1s. They can make things happen out of nothing OR combine with the team to create/score goals. This is simply a fact and we don’t have any attacking players who can consistently beat players from a standing start in tight spaces to either cross, combine with teammates or get a shot away.

Even teams like Palace have more players of this type than us. Eze and Olise are both excellent at taking people on and combination play off the back of it. Spammers have Kudus etc.

Just because someone is good 1v1 it doesn’t mean they can’t also combine with interplay to create and score goals.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Nailed it @Ghost Hardware

All the best teams in the world have a minimum of 1 but more often multiple attacking players who are strong at 1v1s. They can make things happen out of nothing OR combine with the team to create/score goals. This is simply a fact and we don’t have any attacking players who can consistently beat players from a standing start in tight spaces to either cross, combine with teammates or get a shot away.

Even teams like Palace have more players of this type than us. Eze and Olise are both excellent at taking people on and combination play off the back of it. Spammers have Kudus etc.

Just because someone is good 1v1 it doesn’t mean they can’t also combine with interplay to create and score goals.

eze and olise are much better rounded and more complete footballers than nico williams, i wouldn't even put them in the same category.

city haven't had the style of player you're talking about for years, now they have one in doku who hasn't really contributed much. these players are ok as a wildcard option but they won't be central to their success.

who was our elite 1v1 dribbler in the peak years under poch? we didn't have much problem unlocking low-block teams back then, reason being we had high iq players with high technical quality. not frantic 1v1 dribblers who offer little outside of that.

 

[$hoguN]

Werner has 2 goals, 3 assists plus the 2 own goal assists in 12 league games for us. 3 games was him coming on as a sub.

That's a pretty decent return.

Exactly, if anyone is giving him stick with that return I hope he raw dogs their Mum and sends them photos

 

[McFlash]

we didn't have much problem unlocking low-block teams back then

While I do agree with much of what you're getting at, this bit isn't quite true.
We got loads of criticism under Poch for being unable to break down a low block.
I mean, it's not unusual to struggle against that, nearly every team does but we weren't any better under Poch.

 

[Blake Griffin]

While I do agree with much of what you're getting at, this bit isn't quite true.
We got loads of criticism under Poch for being unable to break down a low block.
I mean, it's not unusual to struggle against that, nearly every team does but we weren't any better under Poch.

at our peak(16-17) we were ravaging teams and putting games out of reach before half-time. that was with a front three of eriksen, dele and kane. not much dribbling or pace there.

 

[Mr Pink]

at our peak(16-17) we were ravaging teams and putting games out of reach before half-time. that was with a front three of eriksen, dele and kane. not much dribbling or pace there.

Son had pace at least.

But I agree with your overall point.

High footballing IQ is much more important than someone being able to beat a man from a standing start

 

[southlondonyiddo]

at our peak(16-17) we were ravaging teams and putting games out of reach before half-time. that was with a front three of eriksen, dele and kane. not much dribbling or pace there.

The best side in the country for 2 seasons imo and we won fuck all - leagues are won on scrappy 1-0 victories.

Most sides, however good, have games where they struggle to break down the Oppo who sit with two banks of 5!!

We had a magic side then. No weaknesses. Shame