Player Watch Player Watch: Destiny Udogie

[fishhhandaricecake]

Micah Richards claims Jude Bellingham was outshone by another player early on in England vs Italy

Micah Richards has claimed that Jude Bellingham was outshone by another player in the early stages of England's win over Italy.

www.sportbible.com

Nice to see him start to get some recognition from non-Spurs fans

You could say that Udogie has 'burst onto the scene' even moreso than the great Micah Richards haha.

 

[Col_M]

Micah Richards claims Jude Bellingham was outshone by another player early on in England vs Italy

Micah Richards has claimed that Jude Bellingham was outshone by another player in the early stages of England's win over Italy.

www.sportbible.com

Nice to see him start to get some recognition from non-Spurs fans

reading that article whilst appearing to play Tetris with the ads dropping all over the screen has given me a migraine


Now my eyes have realigned, its quite funny when he says "before he got his yellow card, I thought he was outstanding," only for the article to say "was shown a yellow card in the 10th minute".

So he had a great 10mins. Not exactly eye catching.

 

[SpursSince1980]

Also will add that he was solid, but that is one of the worst Italian teams I’ve seen in a long time. Udogie will likely be at 100 caps by 26 at this rate, as they don’t have anyone better in that position.

 

[Col_M]

Also will add that he was solid, but that is one of the worst Italian teams I’ve seen in a long time. Udogie will likely be at 100 caps by 26 at this rate, as they don’t have anyone better in that position.

Not if they don’t qualify for competitions. That’s half the potential caps lost because he’s in a team so bad

 

[SpursSince1980]

Not if they don’t qualify for competitions. That’s half the potential caps lost because he’s in a team so bad

Good point!

 

[AnthonySoprano]

Tendai Mtawarira is a fellow-Zimbabwean and a Springbok hero. We went to the same school. If he thought his nickname was racist, Springbok fans and commentators wouldn't have called him it. In his case, it's a term of massive respect. World Cup Winner 2019. Four dislikes already. Strange world. What about Ox Nche? Is his nickname racist, or is it a tribute to his strength?

 

[Cochise]

I thought he faded in the second half and also was lucky the ref was lenient when it came to giving second yellows. First half was really good though and Foden is a handful for most defenders.

 

[Tricky]

Sorry, but you simply aren’t understanding the issue here. You need to re-read my first paragraph. This isn’t about individuals using words with a certain intent. Several users have asked that people think about the language they use to describe black players. Nobody is saying any one individual is intentionally setting out to say something racist. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t doing it unconsciously. Nobody is saying that any one individual is deliberately reducing black players down to only their physical, and animalistic attributes. No one, I hope, is setting out to be a racist by calling Sarr, Udogie, or Bissouma as a beast. But people should probably have a think about why it’s almost always black players that are described in this way.

If people can’t see the problem with black players consistently being compared to brutish animals with only their physical prowess praised, while white players are consistently praised for their intelligence, guile and technique, then I’m not sure there’s anything more I can say about it.

That’s on you guys. Several people have explained this calmy and politely now. I’m going to take @MichaelPawson ’s attitude on this one now, you’ve all had this laid out for you now, if you want to carry on doing this then it’s on you, and I’ll consider that you’re now making a conscious choice to use this kind of language.

That’s the last I’ll say on it in this thread.

Good post.

I was first made aware of this with Yaya Toure years ago. Once someone pointed out to me how he was always/regularly described as powerful and strong yet some of his deft, technical skills were off the chart. After this I couldn’t stop seeing these skewed descriptions.

I think even now ,with Toure, he’s one of the premier leagues most under appreciated players.

 

[Johnny J]

I thought he faded in the second half and also was lucky the ref was lenient when it came to giving second yellows. First half was really good though and Foden is a handful for most defenders.

It's testament to how high such a young player has set our expectations that this is the only real criticism of him last night. I sometimes forget he's still a work in progress, because he looks so assured and experienced beyond his years.

 

[Col_M]

Tendai Mtawarira is a fellow-Zimbabwean and a Springbok hero. We went to the same school. If he thought his nickname was racist, Springbok fans and commentators wouldn't have called him it. In his case, it's a term of massive respect. World Cup Winner 2019. Four dislikes already. Strange world. What about Ox Nche? Is his nickname racist, or is it a tribute to his strength?

Bore off.

 

[ARMASPUR]

someone tell Eddie Hall to get his Beast tattoo covered over

 

[spurs9]

Tendai Mtawarira is a fellow-Zimbabwean and a Springbok hero. We went to the same school. If he thought his nickname was racist, Springbok fans and commentators wouldn't have called him it. In his case, it's a term of massive respect. World Cup Winner 2019. Four dislikes already. Strange world. What about Ox Nche? Is his nickname racist, or is it a tribute to his strength?

I'm not sure "it can't be racist if South Africans were calling him it" is the hill you want to die on.

 

[npearl4spurs]

I'm not sure "it can't be racist if South Africans were calling him it" is the hill you want to die on.

This gem went a long way to making this borefest conversation worth it.

 

[Dazzazzad]

If people can’t see the problem with black players consistently being compared to brutish animals with only their physical prowess praised, while white players are consistently praised for their intelligence, guile and technique, then I’m not sure there’s anything more I can say about it.

That’s on you guys. Several people have explained this calmy and politely now. I’m going to take @MichaelPawson ’s attitude on this one now, you’ve all had this laid out for you now, if you want to carry on doing this then it’s on you, and I’ll consider that you’re now making a conscious choice to use this kind of language.

I think what rubs me the wrong way is your certainty and presumption. If you followed the scientific field you'd know there are big problems with replicating findings (the replication crisis).

A lot of papers come out to purport one thing but the methodology is flawed, the results can't be replicated, and often the authors were looking for a certain result with a motivation to find it. Even the peer review process is broken. And that's in hard sciences. Social sciences are well known to be very light on rigour.

The Danish company that did this study and focuses on sporting studies knows that if the finding doesn't show this, they have wasted their time and money. You don't get to do the press parade and all the attention if your study shows there is no bias, or shows evidence that goes in the opposite direction.

This study is about intention and bias yet you don't seem to have this same curiosity about yourself and the authors.

Nowhere in the methodology does it speak to randomizing the sample games. Let alone the subjectivity in choosing which words to focus on.

It also flattens nuances like:

- Physical gifts are more easy to spot - I'd wager Bale was more often praised for his extreme physical gifts over his technique and intelligence because the former is just so much more easy to appreciate.
- Maybe darker skinned players are more physically gifted on average in the EPL (I watch NBA, a more individualistic league, and if it was an all white league it would be a totally different sport from a physical perspective).
- Maybe compliments like intelligence and hard work are used more for players who don't have physical gifts. You have to say something, right? Oliver Skipp isn't going to do anything remarkable physically, so maybe - in looking for a compliment a commentator will default to "he's such a hard worker". It could also be true that, without strong physical gifts, in order to be a pro they have to max out attributes like hard work whereas more physically talented players can coast a bit - "lazy" even. Ginola being a good example or Berbatov.
- There's also a presumption that a physical compliment that overlaps a stereotype is worse than catching one's bias. I remember an author talking about how being steeped in identity politics had a very toxic effect on her - she was a white woman and her neighbour and close friend was black. One day she was bouncing her neighbour's baby on her knee and imagined the optics of this moment through an identity politics lens. What should have been a pure act, was now tarnished. Is the world better if a supporter doesn't exclaim, with pride and joy, "he's a beast!" and rather is hyper focused on the player's identity to make sure every bias is checked? Maybe, but I think reasonable people can disagree and it's not as simple (black and white even) as many make out.

That said, it is an interesting topic and we can certainly agree that if a commentator is not giving a player their due because of the colour of their skin, that IS awful and something we should wish to correct.

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

I see that Maddison took him out on the piss after the Tuesday night game. I hope he’s recovered by Monday!

 

[kmk]

I see that Maddison took him out on the piss after the Tuesday night game. I hope he’s recovered by Monday!

Is there a link to an article or a social media post?

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

Is there a link to an article or a social media post?

Inside England stars' boozy £35k celebrations after reaching Euro finals

ENGLAND stars celebrated reaching the Euro 2024 finals by partying until 6am — and running up a £35,000 bar bill. Aces including Jack Grealish, James Maddison and Trent Alexander Arnold danced the …

www.thesun.co.uk

 

[BorisLloris]

I think what rubs me the wrong way is your certainty and presumption. If you followed the scientific field you'd know there are big problems with replicating findings (the replication crisis).

A lot of papers come out to purport one thing but the methodology is flawed, the results can't be replicated, and often the authors were looking for a certain result with a motivation to find it. Even the peer review process is broken. And that's in hard sciences. Social sciences are well known to be very light on rigour.

The Danish company that did this study and focuses on sporting studies knows that if the finding doesn't show this, they have wasted their time and money. You don't get to do the press parade and all the attention if your study shows there is no bias, or shows evidence that goes in the opposite direction.

This study is about intention and bias yet you don't seem to have this same curiosity about yourself and the authors.

Nowhere in the methodology does it speak to randomizing the sample games. Let alone the subjectivity in choosing which words to focus on.

It also flattens nuances like:

- Physical gifts are more easy to spot - I'd wager Bale was more often praised for his extreme physical gifts over his technique and intelligence because the former is just so much more easy to appreciate.
- Maybe darker skinned players are more physically gifted on average in the EPL (I watch NBA, a more individualistic league, and if it was an all white league it would be a totally different sport from a physical perspective).
- Maybe compliments like intelligence and hard work are used more for players who don't have physical gifts. You have to say something, right? Oliver Skipp isn't going to do anything remarkable physically, so maybe - in looking for a compliment a commentator will default to "he's such a hard worker". It could also be true that, without strong physical gifts, in order to be a pro they have to max out attributes like hard work whereas more physically talented players can coast a bit - "lazy" even. Ginola being a good example or Berbatov.
- There's also a presumption that a physical compliment that overlaps a stereotype is worse than catching one's bias. I remember an author talking about how being steeped in identity politics had a very toxic effect on her - she was a white woman and her neighbour and close friend was black. One day she was bouncing her neighbour's baby on her knee and imagined the optics of this moment through an identity politics lens. What should have been a pure act, was now tarnished. Is the world better if a supporter doesn't exclaim, with pride and joy, "he's a beast!" and rather is hyper focused on the player's identity to make sure every bias is checked? Maybe, but I think reasonable people can disagree and it's not as simple (black and white even) as many make out.

That said, it is an interesting topic and we can certainly agree that if a commentator is not giving a player their due because of the colour of their skin, that IS awful and something we should wish to correct.

That’s a scandalously good post 🫡

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

Inside England stars' boozy £35k celebrations after reaching Euro finals

ENGLAND stars celebrated reaching the Euro 2024 finals by partying until 6am — and running up a £35,000 bar bill. Aces including Jack Grealish, James Maddison and Trent Alexander Arnold danced the …

www.thesun.co.uk

Must say i am stunned that Harry Kane wasn't in attendance.

 

[McFlash]

I think what rubs me the wrong way is your certainty and presumption. If you followed the scientific field you'd know there are big problems with replicating findings (the replication crisis).

A lot of papers come out to purport one thing but the methodology is flawed, the results can't be replicated, and often the authors were looking for a certain result with a motivation to find it. Even the peer review process is broken. And that's in hard sciences. Social sciences are well known to be very light on rigour.

The Danish company that did this study and focuses on sporting studies knows that if the finding doesn't show this, they have wasted their time and money. You don't get to do the press parade and all the attention if your study shows there is no bias, or shows evidence that goes in the opposite direction.

This study is about intention and bias yet you don't seem to have this same curiosity about yourself and the authors.

Nowhere in the methodology does it speak to randomizing the sample games. Let alone the subjectivity in choosing which words to focus on.

It also flattens nuances like:

- Physical gifts are more easy to spot - I'd wager Bale was more often praised for his extreme physical gifts over his technique and intelligence because the former is just so much more easy to appreciate.
- Maybe darker skinned players are more physically gifted on average in the EPL (I watch NBA, a more individualistic league, and if it was an all white league it would be a totally different sport from a physical perspective).
- Maybe compliments like intelligence and hard work are used more for players who don't have physical gifts. You have to say something, right? Oliver Skipp isn't going to do anything remarkable physically, so maybe - in looking for a compliment a commentator will default to "he's such a hard worker". It could also be true that, without strong physical gifts, in order to be a pro they have to max out attributes like hard work whereas more physically talented players can coast a bit - "lazy" even. Ginola being a good example or Berbatov.
- There's also a presumption that a physical compliment that overlaps a stereotype is worse than catching one's bias. I remember an author talking about how being steeped in identity politics had a very toxic effect on her - she was a white woman and her neighbour and close friend was black. One day she was bouncing her neighbour's baby on her knee and imagined the optics of this moment through an identity politics lens. What should have been a pure act, was now tarnished. Is the world better if a supporter doesn't exclaim, with pride and joy, "he's a beast!" and rather is hyper focused on the player's identity to make sure every bias is checked? Maybe, but I think reasonable people can disagree and it's not as simple (black and white even) as many make out.

That said, it is an interesting topic and we can certainly agree that if a commentator is not giving a player their due because of the colour of their skin, that IS awful and something we should wish to correct.

That is a brilliant post.