Crooks: Spurs must replace Stellini with Pochettino now

[Beefyboy]

Oh nooooo not crooks backing that's like a kiss of death.

This guy literally out DDG in his team of the week this week when he didn't make a single save.

 

[Jules77]

Good point about Sanchez being another disaster although like many others have said, I fundamentally disagree with fans booing our own player unless they have disrespected the club or badge in some way which Sanchez cannot be accused of. He is just another example of a poor player that we never should have signed.

Given Levy is looking to distance himself from footballing affairs with the hiring of Munn, I think the previous relationship with Poch would carry less weight in yhe future set up.

Totally agree about booing. It was a new low for me when I thought we couldn’t go lower.

 

[parj]

Just posted the below in the next manager thread but just saw this one hence, posting here as well as on topic:

I for one am very wary about Poch coming back as when we talk about the relative success of the Poch era, I feel we often do this via rose tinted specs.

Let's look at the facts, he joined us in 2014 after the debacle of the AVB and Sherwood era when we were totally lost and had just spunked the Bale money on a bunch of signings that proved very poor bar Eriksen and Lamela on one of his rare good days. Poch came in, gave us an identity and for 2-3 years, the team looked great. We must also remember that this spell coincided with the declining Arsenal years with Wenger, Liverpool starting a rebuild with Klopp, Chelsea rebuild after the implosion of Jose's second spell and Man U still lost post Fergie and Man City stagnation under Pelligrini with Leicester winning the league in that time at our expense. I mention this context not to belittle Poch and the squad's achievements, but to ensure we analyse it properly and recognise that it was during a unique period in the PL when the traditional top 5 were performing way below their usual levels and all at the same time.

We also know Poch was not backed in the transfer market especially in the latter years which coincided with the decline in the team's performance levels and the ask for a rebuild. My worry is what happened when he was backed after the CL loss at the start of said rebuild. We ended up with Sess, Lo Celso and Ndombele two of which are out on loan and the other still looks way off becoming the player we thought we were getting. We did not have a DoF at that time so I would be surprised if Poch did not have a major hand in pushing for those signings for which we are still feeling the consequences today.

I am no DL fan certainly in terms if his leadership on the football side but I feel this notion that he never backed Poch is false. Yes the backing did not happen during the period when the squad was desperate for reinforcement however, this does not account for the cluster fuck signings that were made in 2019 which I am sure played a role in Poch ultimately losing his job.
When I put the above together with the CL final loss, two FA Cup semi final losses, the lost opportunity to win the league and the league Cup final loss I have to say I am in the extremely wary category when it comes to the idea of rehiring Poch as I feel it could be a romantic notion that ends up in tears.

I really hope DL and the board don't bow to the relentless pressure and stand back take as objective a stance as possible in considering the full breadth of available candidates incl Nagelsmann, Slot etc

I'm sorry but how can you just dismiss what Poch did?

He took over after the AVB debacle, helped rebuild us into a competitive team. He didn't have many world class players, he coached many into world class players.

We were playing the best football we have played in probably 20 years whilst being supported with players like Nkoudou, Njie, and the leftover Bale transfers, with a few decent players in between.

We had a title challenge where we just weren't backed and lost out to a Chelsea not playing in Europe.

We got 4 consecutive UCL seasons.

The other clubs were rebuilding, b5it so were we. Go back to before Poch took over and read the comments being made about players. Some of those players became absolute beasts under Poch.

He did sign some duds but let's put them into perspective.
Sanchez - one of the best young defenders in Europe
NDombele - most of us were delighted with what we thought was coup of a signing - he was brilliant in the UCL before we signed him
GLC - he was playing really well. Prior to the world cup he was one of the key players for Argentina. He wasn't making up numbers, he was a key player.
Sess - been shit. I agree.

You can try blaming Poch for all the lost opportunities but he got us there. As a Spurs fan we used to dream of getting UCL and accepted just being in Europe. Because of Poch, we expected top4. He couldn't control Sissoko handball penalty but don't forget we played a fantastic Liverpool team, they were one of the best teams in Europe.

His team was worn out. They played so many matches with not good enough reinforcements. Yes the last season was worrying and when he got sacked we were shit, but look at how much we have spent since and we all ultimately want back what Poch gave us - a team with identity, is trying to compete, and actually making us great to watch. If there was one Spurs manager who earned the right to rebuild, it was Poch.

I'm not saying give it to Poch. But don't dismiss what he did because really, Jose and Conte didn't get us close to what Poch did.

You might as well dismiss what Jol and Redknapp did too. All key steps to us progressing. But no manager since Poch has actually had us playing well, united the fans, and actually got on with their job. All the progress of Jol, Redknapp and Poch undone by Levy, Jose and Conte, and seemingly forgotten by some Spurs fans.

 

[Smokinhotspur]

I'm sorry but how can you just dismiss what Poch did?

He took over after the AVB debacle, helped rebuild us into a competitive team. He didn't have many world class players, he coached many into world class players.

We were playing the best football we have played in probably 20 years whilst being supported with players like Nkoudou, Njie, and the leftover Bale transfers, with a few decent players in between.

We had a title challenge where we just weren't backed and lost out to a Chelsea not playing in Europe.

We got 4 consecutive UCL seasons.

The other clubs were rebuilding, b5it so were we. Go back to before Poch took over and read the comments being made about players. Some of those players became absolute beasts under Poch.

He did sign some duds but let's put them into perspective.
Sanchez - one of the best young defenders in Europe
NDombele - most of us were delighted with what we thought was coup of a signing - he was brilliant in the UCL before we signed him
GLC - he was playing really well. Prior to the world cup he was one of the key players for Argentina. He wasn't making up numbers, he was a key player.
Sess - been shit. I agree.

You can try blaming Poch for all the lost opportunities but he got us there. As a Spurs fan we used to dream of getting UCL and accepted just being in Europe. Because of Poch, we expected top4. He couldn't control Sissoko handball penalty but don't forget we played a fantastic Liverpool team, they were one of the best teams in Europe.

His team was worn out. They played so many matches with not good enough reinforcements. Yes the last season was worrying and when he got sacked we were shit, but look at how much we have spent since and we all ultimately want back what Poch gave us - a team with identity, is trying to compete, and actually making us great to watch. If there was one Spurs manager who earned the right to rebuild, it was Poch.

I'm not saying give it to Poch. But don't dismiss what he did because really, Jose and Conte didn't get us close to what Poch did.

You might as well dismiss what Jol and Redknapp did too. All key steps to us progressing. But no manager since Poch has actually had us playing well, united the fans, and actually got on with their job. All the progress of Jol, Redknapp and Poch undone by Levy, Jose and Conte, and seemingly forgotten by some Spurs fans.

You misinterpret my point. I actually said a lot of the same things you did in recognising what Poch achieved in terms of establishing an identity and delivering great football in the early years under challenging circumstances.

It is not a case of either or as I can say the above whilst still highlighting the wider context in which it was achieved and also some of the decision making especially with respect to transfers at the end of his spell.

Yes fans got excited from clips of Ndombele in the CL and the potential of Lo Celso which is understandable as that is ultimately what fans do but we expect more from managers and the club in terms of due diligence on potential signings. Conte was spot on when he said you need players of a certain profile and charactersitic to play in the PL and I wonder if an emotional Poch after the CL loss steered the club down the wrong path in pushing for these signings that came with a lot of risk given lack of physicality and workrate of these two players as an example.

I am not saying don't give the job to Poch as I am sure he has also learned and developed further since his PSG experience. I am merely saying thousands of fans singing his name every game would make one think he had achieved great things in his first stint while the reality shows that despite establishing an identity and style, him and his squad were always nearly men on no less than six occasions when silverware was close and that cannot be dismissed.

As Arsenal has showed with their dramatic upturn, recruitment (outs and ins) will be the driver of any future turnaround. Whichever manager comes in, I hope we have a structure in place that means we do not make schoolboy errors especially the likes of Ndombele again as some of the articles about his past that came out in the months after we took him highlighted fundamental red flags on attitude and workrate that showed we should never have touched him with a bargepole let alone make him our record signing. I have no way of knowing this but having sold Dembele to China in the Jan before, and knowing how influential that double pivot with Wanyama was to the success of Poch's team in the early years, my sense is that Poch would have been a major driver in pushing for the Ndombele deal in the hope he could recreate the Dembele effect in the middle of the park. We all know how that has ended up and we will likely need to take a massive hit on him in order to move him on in the summer as he isn't exactly pulling up trees at high flying Napoli with being limited to a bench role coming on for 19 - 20 mins at the end of games.

 

[ItsBoris]

We could have ridden a new manager bounce into fourth place. The people running this club are brain dead idiots though so what can you expect

 

[Smokinhotspur]

We could have ridden a new manager bounce into fourth place. The people running this club are brain dead idiots though so what can you expect

This obsession with 4th place is a big part of the problem with our football club. One positive of the fallout from the Conte disaster is that the depth of our dysfunction has been laid bare for all to see. We need to drop the fantasy of another 4th place as this mess of a club and squad is not deserving of it. Everyone knows a root and branch overhaul is needed both on and off the pitch so I'd rather dedicate the focus on starting to lay the foundations for that and if it means taking the time to get those massive decisions right at the expense of a new manager bounce effect and 4th place then so be it.

 

[blankom]

Just get Stellini out. Mason in instead

 

[ItsBoris]

This obsession with 4th place is a big part of the problem with our football club. One positive of the fallout from the Conte disaster is that the depth of our dysfunction has been laid bare for all to see. We need to drop the fantasy of another 4th place as this mess of a club and squad is not deserving of it. Everyone knows a root and branch overhaul is needed both on and off the pitch so I'd rather dedicate the focus on starting to lay the foundations for that and if it means taking the time to get those massive decisions right at the expense of a new manager bounce effect and 4th place then so be it.

The problem with that theory is we're never going to lay the foundations properly. It'll always be reactive.

 

[jebratt]

I think we can all agree anybody but Stellini…

 

[Smokinhotspur]

The problem with that theory is we're never going to lay the foundations properly. It'll always be reactive.

Depends if Levy finally relinquishes control on all football matters to someone who knows what they are doing (Munn?) or better yet sells the club to a proper outfit that is backed by investment.

 

[jolsnogross]

You misinterpret my point. I actually said a lot of the same things you did in recognising what Poch achieved in terms of establishing an identity and delivering great football in the early years under challenging circumstances.

It is not a case of either or as I can say the above whilst still highlighting the wider context in which it was achieved and also some of the decision making especially with respect to transfers at the end of his spell.

Yes fans got excited from clips of Ndombele in the CL and the potential of Lo Celso which is understandable as that is ultimately what fans do but we expect more from managers and the club in terms of due diligence on potential signings. Conte was spot on when he said you need players of a certain profile and charactersitic to play in the PL and I wonder if an emotional Poch after the CL loss steered the club down the wrong path in pushing for these signings that came with a lot of risk given lack of physicality and workrate of these two players as an example.

I am not saying don't give the job to Poch as I am sure he has also learned and developed further since his PSG experience. I am merely saying thousands of fans singing his name every game would make one think he had achieved great things in his first stint while the reality shows that despite establishing an identity and style, him and his squad were always nearly men on no less than six occasions when silverware was close and that cannot be dismissed.

As Arsenal has showed with their dramatic upturn, recruitment (outs and ins) will be the driver of any future turnaround. Whichever manager comes in, I hope we have a structure in place that means we do not make schoolboy errors especially the likes of Ndombele again as some of the articles about his past that came out in the months after we took him highlighted fundamental red flags on attitude and workrate that showed we should never have touched him with a bargepole let alone make him our record signing. I have no way of knowing this but having sold Dembele to China in the Jan before, and knowing how influential that double pivot with Wanyama was to the success of Poch's team in the early years, my sense is that Poch would have been a major driver in pushing for the Ndombele deal in the hope he could recreate the Dembele effect in the middle of the park. We all know how that has ended up and we will likely need to take a massive hit on him in order to move him on in the summer as he isn't exactly pulling up trees at high flying Napoli with being limited to a bench role coming on for 19 - 20 mins at the end of games.

On a couple of points here, I couldn't disagree more.

Poch built the side that achieved those record points totals in the league (77 and 86), got to the CL final, and those cup finals and semi finals. The football was scintillating and we were unfortunate that one or two other teams had a similar stellar season in those tussles. Boiling that period down to being 'nearly men' is your choice, but those were historic highs and anyone looking at the state of us now would be absolutely delighted to have those characteristics and metrics back.

The reason Poch tops the SC poll and the fans chant his name at matches is that his record of achievement happened at Spurs in spite of the obstacles our loser culture and chairman threw at him. It's not nostalgia or superstition. It's because he is a very strong candidate with lots more points in the 'pro' column than the 'con' column, and lots more 'pro' points than most/all of his possible rivals for the job. The arguments against him, in reams of pages on here, still seem to more about 'never go back' superstition than anything substantive that I can see.

And, secondly, anyone who thinks recruitment will be the driver of a future turnaround rather than the manager who comes in is very much mistaken I'm afraid. Arsenal's success stems from Arteta. City's from Pep. Liverpool's from Klopp. Our strong periods under Levy are defined by the managers who were in charge at the time (Jol, Redknapp, Poch), not anything else. I don't know why Spurs fans don't see this clearly. It's as though our recent model of being the 'fancy Watford' has warped people's minds whereby people agree that any old manager (or the big winners we've hired recently) can come in while 'the structure in place' assembles a bunch of players in a squad and calls that team building.

It's the manager folks. That's the guy who will turn this around. And that's a very good reason to pick Poch as the next one because he knows how the club operates, knows the type of football we want to see, and because he's achieved success everywhere he's managed....most importantly, including at Spurs .

 

[Smokinhotspur]

On a couple of points here, I couldn't disagree more.

Poch built the side that achieved those record points totals in the league (77 and 86), got to the CL final, and those cup finals and semi finals. The football was scintillating and we were unfortunate that one or two other teams had a similar stellar season in those tussles. Boiling that period down to being 'nearly men' is your choice, but those were historic highs and anyone looking at the state of us now would be absolutely delighted to have those characteristics and metrics back.

The reason Poch tops the SC poll and the fans chant his name at matches is that his record of achievement happened at Spurs in spite of the obstacles our loser culture and chairman threw at him. It's not nostalgia or superstition. It's because he is a very strong candidate with lots more points in the 'pro' column than the 'con' column, and lots more 'pro' points than most/all of his possible rivals for the job. The arguments against him, in reams of pages on here, still seem to more about 'never go back' superstition than anything substantive that I can see.

And, secondly, anyone who thinks recruitment will be the driver of a future turnaround rather than the manager who comes in is very much mistaken I'm afraid. Arsenal's success stems from Arteta. City's from Pep. Liverpool's from Klopp. Our strong periods under Levy are defined by the managers who were in charge at the time (Jol, Redknapp, Poch), not anything else. I don't know why Spurs fans don't see this clearly. It's as though our recent model of being the 'fancy Watford' has warped people's minds whereby people agree that any old manager (or the big winners we've hired recently) can come in while 'the structure in place' assembles a bunch of players in a squad and calls that team building.

It's the manager folks. That's the guy who will turn this around. And that's a very good reason to pick Poch as the next one because he knows how the club operates, knows the type of football we want to see, and because he's achieved success everywhere he's managed....most importantly, including at Spurs.

Two points I'd pick up from your last paragraph. If a turnaround was mainly down to the manager then we have had two world class managers in recent years that regardless of what you think of their footballing philosophy, have won wherever they have been and usually in a short space of time but for some reason they haven't been able to do it at Spurs. Pep, Klopp and Arteta more recently have all had to make big calls on recruitment (ins/outs) that has then been the platform for them to apply their footballing philosophy/tactical nous to deliver a properly functioning team. The main difference between them and Conte/Mourinho with us in recent years is unfortunately the tools they have to work with ie the players.

The second point is more pertinent as you reference Poch being successful at Spurs and this may be where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. Maybe it is the long years of suffering endured by the fans that leads one to describe that time as successful but I expect more. Yes he created an identity, yes his team was exciting to watch especially in the early years but for me in order to be deemed successful you have to bring home the bacon and that means at least one trophy in the cabinet. He himself said he had unfinished business at Spurs so I guess he is well aware that despite the good times he brought to the club, they never quite got over the line and harsh as it sounds, I stand by my characterisation of him and that squad as nearly men as they nearly did it bit didn't quite get it done when it really mattered.

 

[jolsnogross]

Two points I'd pick up from your last paragraph. If a turnaround was mainly down to the manager then we have had two world class managers in recent years that regardless of what you think of their footballing philosophy, have won wherever they have been and usually in a short space of time but for some reason they haven't been able to do it at Spurs. Pep, Klopp and Arteta more recently have all had to make big calls on recruitment (ins/outs) that has then been the platform for them to apply their footballing philosophy/tactical nous to deliver a properly functioning team. The main difference between them and Conte/Mourinho with us in recent years is unfortunately the tools they have to work with ie the players.

The second point is more pertinent as you reference Poch being successful at Spurs and this may be where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. Maybe it is the long years of suffering endured by the fans that leads one to describe that time as successful but I expect more. Yes he created an identity, yes his team was exciting to watch especially in the early years but for me in order to be deemed successful you have to bring home the bacon and that means at least one trophy in the cabinet. He himself said he had unfinished business at Spurs so I guess he is well aware that despite the good times he brought to the club, they never quite got over the line and harsh as it sounds, I stand by my characterisation of him and that squad as nearly men as they nearly did it bit didn't quite get it done when it really mattered.

Yup, fair enough. You expecting more has nothing to do with a Spurs context in that case though. He was the best modern manager of the club, nobody bettered him. Even Ramos with his 'bringing home the bacon' league cup win. Nowhere near the level of Poch.

And similarly the two 'winner' managers in recent years. Conte looked to have it going, but both fell well short because they didn't galvanise a team around their boring cynical game plans.

We can go on forever about recruitment, but unless the leader of men is in place to tie it all together, it's almost certainly a bunch of jigsaw pieces that never join up into a coherent picture.

Cheers

 

[parj]

Two points I'd pick up from your last paragraph. If a turnaround was mainly down to the manager then we have had two world class managers in recent years that regardless of what you think of their footballing philosophy, have won wherever they have been and usually in a short space of time but for some reason they haven't been able to do it at Spurs. Pep, Klopp and Arteta more recently have all had to make big calls on recruitment (ins/outs) that has then been the platform for them to apply their footballing philosophy/tactical nous to deliver a properly functioning team. The main difference between them and Conte/Mourinho with us in recent years is unfortunately the tools they have to work with ie the players.

The second point is more pertinent as you reference Poch being successful at Spurs and this may be where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. Maybe it is the long years of suffering endured by the fans that leads one to describe that time as successful but I expect more. Yes he created an identity, yes his team was exciting to watch especially in the early years but for me in order to be deemed successful you have to bring home the bacon and that means at least one trophy in the cabinet. He himself said he had unfinished business at Spurs so I guess he is well aware that despite the good times he brought to the club, they never quite got over the line and harsh as it sounds, I stand by my characterisation of him and that squad as nearly men as they nearly did it bit didn't quite get it done when it really mattered.

Ramos and Graham were winners and won with us but we still werent happy.

Poch didn't make me change my ambition as a fan .. he just happens to be the one that showed us the real holy grail. Not a league cup, but title challenges and and UCL final. He got us close and that's against the backdrop of not having a home, of not being able to spend, and having to play a shit load of games.

What he needed was time to rebuild and let him go again. I'm not sure about you, but I have never seen is actually challenge for a title or see is in a UCL final, until Poch.

If we can get a manager that will get us playing good football and actually challenging for the top titles then I'm all for it. I don't want a bloody cup