Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

mil1lion said:

However there's also some like Bissouma who don't offer the protection he needs with the advanced fullbacks. Yet he still starts so does he rate him a lot or just not have the ideal replacement?

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Bissouma is an interesting one. He was great at the start of the season and seemed perfect for Ange’s system. Now I’m not sure whether it’s just a form thing or, as you say, him not being a great fit.

With Hojbjerg leaving we will probably need to bring in a new CM anyway so maybe some competition for Bissouma.

Guntz said:

It's funny how people were absolutely slating a back 3 this time last season - now some want it back

Football eh?

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Never wanted to even think about it again after the Conte Era

But after seeing what Alonso is achieving with Leverkusen and Inzaghi with Inter, I’ve realised that a back three can be a million miles away from a ‘defensive’ formation depending on the principles placed behind it.

Now it's Spursonal said:

Yeah fair point, but doesn’t that then contradict with first point from your original post on his book?

•Ange is always thinking tactically about 'what is next' 'how can we play differently and in a way that no-one else is doing right now

Also, isn’t the very example of the 3-2-4-1 formation that he used with Australia a perfect example of his willingness to change formation? And that he doesn’t always stick with the 433?

My take on it personally (And I could be very wrong) is that Ange steadfastly refuses to change from his footballing principles and philosophies i.e. high tempo attacking football and We never stop mantra etc.

But how he achieves these footballing principles and philosophies is very much open to change and he has no problem changing formations if he feels it will better achieve these goals.

What do you think?

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Yea fair point mate although I think right now with the 4-3-3/2-3-5 with 2 inverted full-backs that IS something different which no-one else is doing right now, if we switch to a 3-2-4-1 formation then that is nothing particularly new, in fact its exactly the formation (allbeitnotahighline) this team was playing under Conte which Ange was brought in to rip up and change.

I take your point about him playing 3-2-4-1 with Australia but that was based on the players he had at the time very much suiting that formation such as lots of n.o10's and not many wingers and also as a national coach you have to work with what you've got whereas as a club coach you can look to mould your squad to your preferred formation and style , he's come into spurs and is clearly moulding a squad to suit this 4-3-3/2-3-5 so it wouldn't make any sense to then rip that up and switch to a 3-2-4-1, unless you just mean tweak it in the build-up play rather than out and out always play and line-up like that in which case I think there is a small chance that upon a summer of reflection Ange might tweak the system a bit but I also think there is a very good chance the system will stay exactly as it is and it will just be the personnel who change/improve.

Also he's not played a starting 3-2-4-1 for many many years, in Japan and at Celtic he played 4-3-3 so from 2018-2024 he has pretty much exclusively played 4-3-3, he also played 4-3-3 for most of his time managing Brisbane Roar and Melbourne Victory and his favourite teams like the dutch total football sides played a 4-3-3 so I'd be very surprised if after a season of honing this new squad to that he would suddenly make such a big change to a formation and system he's been asking the players to learn for the past year.

That would be my take on it mate but ofc neither of us are actually in the mind of Ange so who knows but whatever he decides I will back him and I just hope most importantly that we get him at least 5 top quality signings this summer to address the remaining squad weaknesses and help give him a robust squad next season to challenge in Europe and domestically.

Poch played a back 3 for a bit. It's funny that back 3 can be considered more defensive than a back 4. That never made sense. It clearly depends how the wingbacks are used and how the team can progress. Conte was a counter attack manager and that's why it was defensive. It was no more defensive than Jose with his 4231. If you keep the ball and press high without it you make the pitch smaller and keep to the opposition half more. Then even your centre backs are where the midfielders would be if you drop back to a mid block or even the striker in a low block.

Now it's Spursonal said:

Never wanted to even think about it again after the Conte Era

But after seeing what Alonso is achieving with Leverkusen and Inzaghi with Inter, I’ve realised that a back three can be a million miles away from a ‘defensive’ formation depending on the principles placed behind it.

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It can but I don't think that is the road we are going down under Ange tbh, at most we might switch to building up in a 3-2-5 rather than a 2-3-5 but even that tweak I don't think is very likely.

Also Leverkusen and Inter both have squads which really suit a back 3, we don't have that and Ange is moulding our squad more and more towards a 4-3-3 lets go with it.

Ange's tactics in Japan 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 very similar to now but the n.o6 dropped in between the 2x CB's a bit more to build up in a 3, this could be the tweak he might make at some point but Biss and Bentancur do do this from time to time anyway.

Overview of Ange's tactics through time, even when he played 3-4-2-1 with Australia he also played 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 with them and it was mostly due to Australia having a lot of n.o10's and not many wingers also he can't make transfers in an international job whereas whenever he's had the ability to shape a squad he's moulded it to a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 and he's really played 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 for about 95% of his line-ups over his managerial career and has favoured it in his most recent 3 jobs : Yokohama-F-Marinos, Celtic and Tottenham.

He's honestly just a top quality defensive midfielder from the system working best. That's the key signing this summer for me.

mil1lion said:

He's honestly just a top quality defensive midfielder from the system working best. That's the key signing this summer for me.

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I'd say its that plus 2 top quality attackers mate a striker and wing forward who can create and score much better than our current ones, those 3 signings would be transformative, plus sprinkle in the 4th CB and improved CM with PEH likely leaving plus bonuses would be improved back-up's at RB and LB and GK and he'd have most of what he needs I think.

I do watch Rodri and Rice and think that they are levels above Bissouma and as much as I love Bentancur I don't think he is an out and out 6 so yea a top quality DM would be important but for me a top quality ST and WF would be the absolute 2 priorities in the same way that Klopp needed Alison & VVD to transform that Liverpool side at the other end of the pitch.

Now it's Spursonal said:

As a litmus test to how this setup could work in the prem, Crystal Palace made it pass with flying colours yesterday making it look absolutely electric.



3-2-4-1 setup with two holding midfielders (6’s) in Wharton and Hughes and two attacking midfielders (10’s) in Eze and Olise forming a box midfield.

Width provided by the wing backs in Munoz and Mitchell. But both 10’s are more than comfortable playing on the wings so able to both overlap on the wings or underlap into the box depending on the situation.

3 Center backs holding while in possession, with the two wide CB’s (Clyne and Richards) being fast players able to recover for counter attacks and the Central Centre back (Anderson) being a very good ball playing defender able to both carry and pass the ball out of defence.

View attachment 139822

Now substitute in our
players for this system and you end up with something like this:

View attachment 139824

Player for player obviously we’re miles ahead of Palace except for probably the two 10’s and maybe Adam Wharton, but in terms of pure suitability for the system the players are fairly spot on.

So positions we could probably look to strengthen on for this system:

1: A fast RCB/RB that’s rapid i.e. Simakan

2. An AM/Winger that’s comfortable playing central and on the wing i.e. Eze, Gibbs-White, Baena, Gudmundsson

3. A DM like Adam Wharton who we were apparently interested in in January or maybe like Archie Gray who we’re interested in now

Bonus: A striker that’s more of a target man, with better holdup.

I really am so convinced now that we’re going to look to play two formations from next season, our current 433 obviously and the new 3241.

This is exactly what the current top teams in the prem (City and unfortunately Arsenal) are currently doing. Having two different systems trained and ready to go depending on the opposition.

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Please do not take this personally but i'm just using your post to highlight a wider point - I find it absolutely astounding how pretty much the majority on here were bored of wing backs at the end of Conte's tenure due to it being 'dinosaur tactics' 'too defensive', 'boring', 'one dimensional' and 'tired' of seeing us dominated in midfield because we only had two central mids in there etc... and now a year later i've seen various posts on here and social media asking Ange to switch to a three at the back system. It's crazy how short term fans memories are.

fishhhandaricecake said:

I'd say its that plus 2 top quality attackers mate a striker and wing forward who can create and score much better than our current ones, those 3 signings would be transformative, plus sprinkle in the 4th CB and improved CM with PEH likely leaving plus bonuses would be improved back-up's at RB and LB and GK and he'd have most of what he needs I think.

I do watch Rodri and Rice and think that they are levels above Bissouma and as much as I love Bentancur I don't think he is an out and out 6 so yea a top quality DM would be important but for me a top quality ST and WF would be the absolute 2 priorities in the same way that Klopp needed Alison & VVD to transform that Liverpool side at the other end of the pitch.

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Agree although even just one top quality forward could be enough.

The idea of reverting to a back three fills me with dread, almost as much as reviving the diamond.

fishhhandaricecake said:

Yea fair point mate although I think right now with the 4-3-3/2-3-5 with 2 inverted full-backs that IS something different which no-one else is doing right now, if we switch to a 3-2-4-1 formation then that is nothing particularly new, in fact its exactly the formation (allbeitnotahighline) this team was playing under Conte which Ange was brought in to rip up and change.

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I think you might have missed my point here a small bit, I wasn’t so much trying to highlight the fact that Ange wants to try out something no one else is doing.

Moreso I was just pointing out that he is open to changing his tactics if it’s beneficial to fulfilling his footballing philosophies, as evidenced by his previous switch to 3-2-4-1, which is what I was intending to highlight.

Also the 3-2-4-1 Ange plays is very different to what Conte played here.

Conte played a 3-4-3 with two wingers and only two midfielders.

Ange’s 3-2-4-1 plays with zero wingers and four midfielders.

As you said though, other than the above point, it is just a difference in opinions between us and neither of us have any idea what Ange is planning at all.

And I’ll concede that my opinion is definitely the more ‘out there’ one and far less likely to be true.

But that doesn’t mean I’m changing from it!

Appreciate the discussion

JUSTINSIGNAL said:

Please do not take this personally but i'm just using your post to highlight a wider point - I find it absolutely astounding how pretty much the majority on here were bored of wing backs at the end of Conte's tenure due to it being 'dinosaur tactics' 'too defensive', 'boring', 'one dimensional' and 'tired' of seeing us dominated in midfield because we only had two central mids in there etc... and now a year later i've seen various posts on here and social media asking Ange to switch to a three at the back system. It's crazy how short term fans memories are.

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Oh nothing taken personal at all, far from it!

I was in fact definitely in the camp of thinking the 3 atb formation was dreadful due to being constantly overrun in midfield.

And I understand the greater point your making about the fickleness of fans which I completely agree with(and of which I’m definitely guilty of too).

But to just make a separate point on the 3-2-4-1 formation, it actually plays with a box midfield of 4 players rather than the two midfielders played in Conte’s 3-4-3. So there’s absolutely zero fear of being overrun in midfield.

The issues with the formation stem from being actually overrun on the wings, so that’s why you’d need stellar wide defenders such as Van De Ven and Simakan for it to be successful.

Styopa said:

The idea of reverting to a back three fills me with dread, almost as much as reviving the diamond.

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Complete understand this after the Conte football we were subjected too, but hypothetically if Ange were to leave in the morning would you not be happy to have Xabi Alonso walk through the doors?

And apologies to everyone for completely bombarding the thread with my rambling, I’ll stop subjecting ye to it now

Now it's Spursonal said:

Complete understand this after the Conte football we were subjected too, but hypothetically if Ange were to leave in the morning would you not be happy to have Xabi Alonso walk through the doors?

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I think I would just feel like here we go again…

I wouldn’t feel particularly happy even with Alonso.

Is it time to get the christmas tree formation out yet ??

4 4 fucking 2

I think the only reason people mention a back 3 is simply that we don't have enough defensive minded players. Too many are more comfortable in attack or in possession and not enough are as good out of it. We finally got another centre back in January but we didn't replace Hojbjerg so naturally the back 3 comes up now. Had we replaced Hojbjerg we would have better competition in defensive midfield and back 3 probably doesn't come up. I personally would have liked Hojbjerg to start more while Bissouma is off form but I think Ange is just sticking to players he wants next season and won't give up the possession quality of Bissouma. Even if that means we drop points this season so he has it drilled into his team for next season.

cjsimba said:

4 4 fucking 2

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Exactly. Full backs, not wing backs. Kulu and Johnson up the wings, Bents and Madds in the middle, Richie and Son up top. Get it done.