Race for The Top 10

Bobbins said:

Do you honestly think the team is anywhere near their previous standards? Key players like Dele, Kane, Vertonghen, Son and Toby are light years away from the form they showed when we were ripping up the CL. As you say we've also lost Eriksen - the single most important player to the way we played. N'Dombele doesn't even count - he's not only not superior on form to any of our previous players, the guy isn't even playing. Lo Celso is brilliant and Bergwijn shows promise - those two do not make up for the massive degradation of the squad, and we absolutely do not play anything like the same way we did when Poch's teams were smashing the likes of Madrid.

We're only arguably stronger on paper if you're playing Football Manager and you're basing everything off player stats. We are not the same team we were and I'm not sure why you'd think we are?

Didn't you see us in the CL this year? We absolutely scraped through most games and got roundly smashed a total of 14 - 3 by two German teams. We are nowhere near the level required to be able to make any sort of success of a CL campaign as well as the PL and domestic cups.

We have absolutely no chance of winning 7 in a row this season and we'll be nowhere near the CL spots.

I'm not sure what football you've been watching this year but it sounds like your season has gone a lot better than mine.

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ItsBoris said:

Why do you think that is? They just suddenly lost all their skill? I don't think so - for me we lost our mojo, our confidence. That's what we had last season that we miss this season. Even with Eriksen for half a season we weren't playing well, so that's not the critical variable. I think Lo Celso adequately replaces him anyway.

Our players are plenty good enough. Sure some upgrades would be nice. But if you compare our team to Wolves, Arsenal, Sheffield, Leicester - we're miles better. I wouldn't trade our squad for Arsenal's in a million years, and that's not because of bias. In terms of quality players we're around the United/Chelsea level (and a bit better than Chelsea before their additions of Werner and Ziyech imo).

Point is to say that we don't belong in the Champions league when we're the current runner ups with mostly the same squad is fairly ridiculous imo. I get that sentiment is negative right now but some perspective is needed.

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ItsBoris said:

Why do you think that is? They just suddenly lost all their skill? I don't think so - for me we lost our mojo, our confidence. That's what we had last season that we miss this season. Even with Eriksen for half a season we weren't playing well, so that's not the critical variable. I think Lo Celso adequately replaces him anyway.

Our players are plenty good enough. Sure some upgrades would be nice. But if you compare our team to Wolves, Arsenal, Sheffield, Leicester - we're miles better. I wouldn't trade our squad for Arsenal's in a million years, and that's not because of bias. In terms of quality players we're around the United/Chelsea level (and a bit better than Chelsea before their additions of Werner and Ziyech imo).

Point is to say that we don't belong in the Champions league when we're the current runner ups with mostly the same squad is fairly ridiculous imo. I get that sentiment is negative right now but some perspective is needed.

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Marantz said:

If we cant get 5th i would like to skip European football. Just focus on league and cups next year and see where we end up.

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Doctor Dinkey said:

I think this would be the right attitude if we were going to be going for the big trophies next year. But realistically we won't be. CL qualification too may be a huge ask and might not happen for another few years. Europa League is our current level, bearing in mind the state of the squad and the likelihood of significantly improving it, and we shouldn't turn our nose up at it.

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MK Yid said:

Lo Celso, who has no goals or assists replaces someone that got roughly a combined 25 every season ? - nowhere near close to replacing him.

Just look at where we are now to say 3 seasons back

Lloris - much more prone to a mistake
Walker v. Aurier - no contest
Rose v. Davies - no contest
Vertonghen v. Sanchez - no contest
Toby v. Dier or an ageing Toby - no contest
Dembele v. Winks - don't make me laugh
Dier v. Sissoko - well that is 7 out of 7
Eriksen v. LoCelso - Eriksen by a mile, even if LoCelso is one of our better players now.

The Dele/Son/Kane combo back then is more potent than the Kane/Son/whoever combo now.

Teams improve by bringing in better and moving starters to the bench, we have gone the other way, we have removed starters and replaced them with what were bench players.

We are not even close to being where we were, We are not miles better than Leicester or Wolves. Both are better than us.

We had the most amazing run of luck to get to the CL final last year, it was our equivalent of Leicester winning the League.

I agree that some perspective is needed, it is your perspective that needs adjusting, you are totally overrating our team, we are miles away from where we should be, and will rightfully finish about 7th in the League and have been disappointing in all the cups.

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mpickard2087 said:

Don't get the hate for the Europa League, at the very least it gives us an opportunity to watch more Spurs/football matches against different opposition, and the excuses that we should sack it off are poor.

It might not be the competition to be in, but big clubs just get on with it and demonstrate why they are that. Say what you want about them, but all of Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool in recent years have won or at least come extremely close to winning it. Everything about Spurs - the club, players/manager, fans - though treat the competition as if it's beneath them. And we really are in no position to be acting like that.

I've said before that the Europa League for me is a good test of the overall health of a football club. Take away the gun XI and have you built a solid squad with decent back up options able to come in and perform? How is the youth academy doing, have you got people who can come into these games and show something? etc. You can use it for your benefit and shine a light on whether overall the football club as a whole is doing as good as it thinks it is.

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ItsBoris said:

Why do you think that is? They just suddenly lost all their skill? I don't think so - for me we lost our mojo, our confidence. That's what we had last season that we miss this season. Even with Eriksen for half a season we weren't playing well, so that's not the critical variable. I think Lo Celso adequately replaces him anyway.

Our players are plenty good enough. Sure some upgrades would be nice. But if you compare our team to Wolves, Arsenal, Sheffield, Leicester - we're miles better. I wouldn't trade our squad for Arsenal's in a million years, and that's not because of bias. In terms of quality players we're around the United/Chelsea level (and a bit better than Chelsea before their additions of Werner and Ziyech imo).

Point is to say that we don't belong in the Champions league when we're the current runner ups with mostly the same squad is fairly ridiculous imo. I get that sentiment is negative right now but some perspective is needed.

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ItsBoris said:

Why do you think that is? They just suddenly lost all their skill? I don't think so - for me we lost our mojo, our confidence. That's what we had last season that we miss this season. Even with Eriksen for half a season we weren't playing well, so that's not the critical variable. I think Lo Celso adequately replaces him anyway.

Our players are plenty good enough. Sure some upgrades would be nice. But if you compare our team to Wolves, Arsenal, Sheffield, Leicester - we're miles better. I wouldn't trade our squad for Arsenal's in a million years, and that's not because of bias. In terms of quality players we're around the United/Chelsea level (and a bit better than Chelsea before their additions of Werner and Ziyech imo).

Point is to say that we don't belong in the Champions league when we're the current runner ups with mostly the same squad is fairly ridiculous imo. I get that sentiment is negative right now but some perspective is needed.

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mpickard2087 said:

Don't get the hate for the Europa League, at the very least it gives us an opportunity to watch more Spurs/football matches against different opposition, and the excuses that we should sack it off are poor.

It might not be the competition to be in, but big clubs just get on with it and demonstrate why they are that. Say what you want about them, but all of Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool in recent years have won or at least come extremely close to winning it. Everything about Spurs - the club, players/manager, fans - though treat the competition as if it's beneath them. And we really are in no position to be acting like that.

I've said before that the Europa League for me is a good test of the overall health of a football club. Take away the gun XI and have you built a solid squad with decent back up options able to come in and perform? How is the youth academy doing, have you got people who can come into these games and show something? etc. You can use it for your benefit and shine a light on whether overall the football club as a whole is doing as good as it thinks it is.

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MK Yid said:

Lo Celso, who has no goals or assists replaces someone that got roughly a combined 25 every season ? - nowhere near close to replacing him.

Just look at where we are now to say 3 seasons back

Lloris - much more prone to a mistake
Walker v. Aurier - no contest
Rose v. Davies - no contest
Vertonghen v. Sanchez - no contest
Toby v. Dier or an ageing Toby - no contest
Dembele v. Winks - don't make me laugh
Dier v. Sissoko - well that is 7 out of 7
Eriksen v. LoCelso - Eriksen by a mile, even if LoCelso is one of our better players now.

The Dele/Son/Kane combo back then is more potent than the Kane/Son/whoever combo now.

Teams improve by bringing in better and moving starters to the bench, we have gone the other way, we have removed starters and replaced them with what were bench players.

We are not even close to being where we were, We are not miles better than Leicester or Wolves. Both are better than us.

We had the most amazing run of luck to get to the CL final last year, it was our equivalent of Leicester winning the League.

I agree that some perspective is needed, it is your perspective that needs adjusting, you are totally overrating our team, we are miles away from where we should be, and where you think we are, and will rightfully finish about 7th in the League and have been disappointing in all the cups.

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ItsBoris said:

I'm talking about specifically last season. I would agree that we've regressed a bit since 2017 when we were the 2nd best team in the league, which I would put down to losing Walker and Dembele mainly.

Minus Rose and Trippier, we can put out the same team that started the CL final last year (presumably what Poch thought was our best team at the time). And most people were not concerned about either of those players leaving (the other options about as good as those two).

I don't see why you would think that the Dele/Son/Kane combo couldn't be good again. Again, I think it's just that the team became complacent and lost confidence. The only other explanation is that those players have lost individual skill, but I think that's unlikely given all three are relatively young still.

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Bobbins said:

I know exactly what's happened - what I don't understand is why you think there is any chance of what's gone missing, coming back? There are no signs of that so far. Poch had the team playing beyond their capabilities as individuals into a brilliant collective - and that has gone. That's never coming back. The form some players reached in the past will never return - either due to the former or due to age.

We're not up against Wolves, Arsenal, Sheffield United and Leicester though. We're up against Liverpool, City, United and Chelsea? That's the quality of club we're competing for in the CL spots, and that's the quality of club we'll be up against in the CL itself. We tried that this season and got gang raped by Germans. And you're massively, gigantically underrating Chelsea for some unknown reason. And even if the City ban is upheld, Wolves and Leicester are better teams than us at the moment, IMO.

The fundamental difference between our viewpoints is in the ability of our squad. You think they're fully capable of replicating the form and performances of two/three years ago. I completely disagree and say that due to a change in manager, the aging of players and a fundamental shift in the attitude, objectives and atmosphere of the club and fans, there is absolutely no chance of regaining anything close to that level of performance with the same players.

I'd say that's objectively, demonstrably true and is happening right in front of you right now. You say that's a fairly ridiculous viewpoint. That's where we differ and we're unlikely to get any closer to the middle on this one.

Good discussion though.

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MK Yid said:

Regressed a bit since 2017, you are the master of the understatement.

Are you forgetting we have also lost arguably our best footballer and arguably our best playmaker since Hoddle from that team.
Also Jan and Toby have another year in their legs, and have basically had to be replaced. So that means we are basically unable to play any of the back 4 that started the CL final or our playmaker.

6 of our back 7 (Aurier, Sanchez, Winks, Sissoko, Davies, second CB) are not of the required level to challenge, they still are what they were 2 years ago, bench warmer standard, but we have brought into team to replace what were much better players than them, and Lloris whilst still decent is regressing.
The only player outside of our forward line that would even have a chance of a start for any of Chelsea, Man U, Man C or Liverpool is LoCelso.
That is why we are not good enough.
Our front line is still reasonably deadly, although are relying on counter attacking, rather than having them created for them now Eriksen has gone.

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ItsBoris said:

Nah I think our CB pairing and goalkeeper would start for Chelsea. And these sort of discussions are so dependent on players' form that they're difficult to have objectively. Last season the only Man United player that would get in our team was Paul Pogba. This season it's different because they're in better form and we're in worse form.

I agree that we aren't good enough yet, but like I said we're much more likely to progress further in the Champions league than Wolves, Leicester, Arsenal, or Sheffield. So I'm just taking exception with the idea that we don't deserve to be or belong in the CL (can't remember the original phrasing of the point).

I should point out that if City aren't banned then yeah I think it's pretty unlikely that we'll make it. I do however think we have a decent chance of making 5th place. There's no reason to give up on that yet.

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