Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

only1waddle · Jun 24, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Don't know much about Jota but regardless of injury or stats, I think we all know Son isn't a dribbly, hug the touchline, 1v1 winger and wouldn't work particularly well in that role.

To get the best out of Son we need him in shooting positions as much as possible and in Ange's 4-3-3 I think he'd be most useful playing through the middle.

There's an interview somewhere, might be a podcast where AP talks about tweaking his setup, roughly quoted "you can't just keep crossing the ball"
He might well do the same, it would be foolish for him to do anything else other than play to Son's strength

Timberwolf · Jun 24, 2023

only1waddle said:
There's an interview somewhere, might be a podcast where AP talks about tweaking his setup, roughly quoted "you can't just keep crossing the ball"
He might well do the same, it would be foolish for him to do anything else other than play to Son's strength

Yeah I think there's a decent chance he mixes up the system to get the best out of the squad and, particularly, Kane and Son. Feel like the 4-3-3 is a step too far for our current squad atm, even with some clever transfers.

only1waddle · Jun 24, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Yeah I think there's a decent chance he mixes up the system to get the best out of the squad and, particularly, Kane and Son. Feel like the 4-3-3 is a step too far for our current squad atm, even with some clever transfers.

Agree, it's the clichéd transition season but if Son is off after this year then use him properly, Trix mentioned AP using 4231, probably a more solid start than diving into any single pivot system with unsuitable players.

Timberwolf · Jun 24, 2023

only1waddle said:
Agree, it's the clichéd transition season but if Son is off after this year then use him properly, Trix mentioned AP using 4231, probably a more solid start than diving into any single pivot system with unsuitable players.

Yeah and I feel that also gives us the option of dropping Kane deeper into the 10 role in certain games and playing Son/Rich through the middle.

RuskyM · Jun 24, 2023

KingNick said:
Sounds like a Jose quote putting the blame on a club hierarchy for not giving him the players he wants rather than admit he was able to get a tube out of the ones he’s got.

So that's what they were doing in training.

spurs9 · Jun 24, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Don't know much about Jota but regardless of injury or stats, I think we all know Son isn't a dribbly, hug the touchline, 1v1 winger and wouldn't work particularly well in that role.

To get the best out of Son we need him in shooting positions as much as possible and in Ange's 4-3-3 I think he'd be most useful playing through the middle.

My point was more about Jota being no better in the PL for that role, but I also disagree that the wide player needs to be a dribbly hug the touchline winger, Jota often comes inside into the channels and Son is capable of going wide pulling the ball back or crossing.

Here are all of Jota's goals and assists last season (and other highlights). As you will see, the wingers in Postecoglou's system don't hug the wings and cross on the outside like people would have you believe. A fully fit Son is more than capable of playing that role.

Timberwolf · Jun 24, 2023

spurs9 said:
My point was more about Jota being no better in the PL for that role, but I also disagree that the wide player needs to be a dribbly hug the touchline winger, Jota often comes inside into the channels and Son is capable of going wide pulling the ball back or crossing.

Here are all of Jota's goals and assists last season (and other highlights). As you will see, the wingers in Postecoglou's system don't hug the wings and cross on the outside like people would have you believe. A fully fit Son is more than capable of playing that role.

Ok yeah see what you mean. I'd say the majority of those goals could've easily been Son.

fishhhandaricecake · Jun 24, 2023

spurs9 said:
My point was more about Jota being no better in the PL for that role, but I also disagree that the wide player needs to be a dribbly hug the touchline winger, Jota often comes inside into the channels and Son is capable of going wide pulling the ball back or crossing.

Here are all of Jota's goals and assists last season (and other highlights). As you will see, the wingers in Postecoglou's system don't hug the wings and cross on the outside like people would have you believe. A fully fit Son is more than capable of playing that role.

Bang on

Locotoro · Jun 24, 2023

KingNick said:
Sounds like a Jose quote putting the blame on a club hierarchy for not giving him the players he wants rather than admit he was able to get a tube out of the ones he’s got.

for one of the most obvious examples to disprove the point - Gooners pre Wenger to how he got them playing. And The Donkey strolling out of defence with the ball and ending up scoring Etc

To be fair, that Arsenal side with the old back line was entirely counter attacking. The following two seasons that defence was entirely replaced with more mobile technical players.

Another example that people tend to give credit to us Klopp. They say look at how he's changed the teams style to his geggenpress. He actually switched out the entire team before he saw any success. If you look at the starting line up from Klopps first game ( which was against Spurs) to winning his first trophy (also against Spurs) there is not a single player that is still there and if you widen it still there are only 5 players that were still part of the first team squad.

This is why I tend to agree with the idea, whether it was Mourinho or not, that the coach can't get players to change their style. The players either already know or they get replaced.

Locotoro · Jun 24, 2023

only1waddle said:
Agree, it's the clichéd transition season but if Son is off after this year then use him properly, Trix mentioned AP using 4231, probably a more solid start than diving into any single pivot system with unsuitable players.

I don't disagree but then you're setting up for a system that you're planning to move away from in the future.
The whole point of a 433 is to have wide forwards and get the 8s forward whereas a 4231 has two more or less holding players and the wide forwards come narrow and the fullbacks give the wide. It's really hard to use inverted fullbacks in a 4231 because the space gets clogged up in the DM/CM area

spurs9 · Jun 24, 2023

Locotoro said:
To be fair, that Arsenal side with the old back line was entirely counter attacking. The following two seasons that defence was entirely replaced with more mobile technical players.

Another example that people tend to give credit to us Klopp. They say look at how he's changed the teams style to his geggenpress. He actually switched out the entire team before he saw any success. If you look at the starting line up from Klopps first game ( which was against Spurs) to winning his first trophy (also against Spurs) there is not a single player that is still there and if you widen it still there are only 5 players that were still part of the first team squad.

This is why I tend to agree with the idea, whether it was Mourinho or not, that the coach can't get players to change their style. The players either already know or they get replaced.

They had injuries in Klopps first game (Firminho and Henderson).

Out of the 1st 11 and subs bench in the CL final, 10 players we already 1st team players when Klopp joined, 3 were already there but youth players and 10 were new signings.

KingNick · Jun 24, 2023

Locotoro said:
To be fair, that Arsenal side with the old back line was entirely counter attacking. The following two seasons that defence was entirely replaced with more mobile technical players.

Another example that people tend to give credit to us Klopp. They say look at how he's changed the teams style to his geggenpress. He actually switched out the entire team before he saw any success. If you look at the starting line up from Klopps first game ( which was against Spurs) to winning his first trophy (also against Spurs) there is not a single player that is still there and if you widen it still there are only 5 players that were still part of the first team squad.

This is why I tend to agree with the idea, whether it was Mourinho or not, that the coach can't get players to change their style. The players either already know or they get replaced.

Definite re-writing of history there re Gooners. Wenger arrived in 1996. Look at how many games Dixon, Winterburn, Adams, Keown played from then onwards.

Wenger’s style (or multiple styles if you wish) as far away from how those players had played for years under Graham as you could possibly get. Back 4 never advancing beyond half-way. No taking time on the ball. Just clip it into channels or two yard passes to midfielders. No encouragement to play.

And I’ve heard every one of those Arsenal players talk about adapting and enjoying the freedom they had to become better footballers and do more than just defend and get rid. They were eventually replaced as they were all in their late 30s!

At the top level there are very few players who cannot adapt to different systems.

spurs9 · Jun 24, 2023

KingNick said:
Definite re-writing of history there re Gooners. Wenger arrived in 1996. Look at how many games Dixon, Winterburn, Adams, Keown played from then onwards.

Wenger’s style (or multiple styles if you wish) as far away from how those players had played for years under Graham as you could possibly get. Back 4 never advancing beyond half-way. No taking time on the ball. Just clip it into channels or two yard passes to midfielders. No encouragement to play.

And I’ve heard every one of those Arsenal players talk about adapting and enjoying the freedom they had to become better footballers and do more than just defend and get rid. They were eventually replaced as they were all in their late 30s!

At the top level there are very few players who cannot adapt to different systems.

Yeah, when Wenger won his first title with Arsenal, they only had 5 players that played more than 1000 mins that weren't there prior to Wenger (Petit, Vieira, Overmars, Grimaldi and Anelka) and only the first 3 were in n the top 11 used players that season.

only1waddle · Jun 24, 2023

Locotoro said:
I don't disagree but then you're setting up for a system that you're planning to move away from in the future.
The whole point of a 433 is to have wide forwards and get the 8s forward whereas a 4231 has two more or less holding players and the wide forwards come narrow and the fullbacks give the wide. It's really hard to use inverted fullbacks in a 4231 because the space gets clogged up in the DM/CM area

Yeah I see that and understand that about 433 and 4231, he may well setup with traditional fullbacks for a season, Trix certainly said he'd heard 4231 was on the cards.
I've been on this forum awhile and I've seen the same pattern of conversation regarding AP's 433 as the in depth analysis of AVB's infamous 433 and Conte's 343, to the point where it's pretty painful reading, everyone gets incredibly excited about theory and it tends to not quite work out the way everyone assumes it would on paper, not a dig at you mate, as I said, he might do something different until the right pieces are in place, he might find the right pieces in the squad already and go with the 433, but with the number of players needed to shift, to assess, to come in, the trip to OZ, it doesn't leave much time to coach this type of formation in the hardest league in the world, single pivot, inverted fullbacks, new CB partnership needed, high up the pitch, jumpers for goalposts, wasn't it, isn't it, six weeks of coaching before the first game is all a bit brutal.

longtimespur · Jun 24, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Don't know much about Jota but regardless of injury or stats, I think we all know Son isn't a dribbly, hug the touchline, 1v1 winger and wouldn't work particularly well in that role.

To get the best out of Son we need him in shooting positions as much as possible and in Ange's 4-3-3 I think he'd be most useful playing through the middle.

Have you applied to Ange yet?

Insomnia · Jun 24, 2023

I’m currently in Tenerife and there’s loads of Celtic here. They’re all keen to see how he gets on here. A few even suggesting he we win the league in his 3rd season here. The majority think Levy could be a problem however. They’re all gutted Brenton Roger’s is back there however

spurs9 · Jun 24, 2023

only1waddle said:
Agree, it's the clichéd transition season but if Son is off after this year then use him properly, Trix mentioned AP using 4231, probably a more solid start than diving into any single pivot system with unsuitable players.

Did Trix mention 4231, I thought he just said we might not set up 433 initially, as Postecoglou feels the squad isn't built for it, but didn't mention any potential formation?

only1waddle · Jun 24, 2023

spurs9 said:
Did Trix mention 4231, I thought he just said we might not set up 433 initially, as Postecoglou feels the squad isn't built for it, but didn't mention any potential formation?

Pretty certain he mentioned 4231, my mind is a bit wonky though.

only1waddle · Jun 24, 2023

spurs9 said:
Did Trix mention 4231, I thought he just said we might not set up 433 initially, as Postecoglou feels the squad isn't built for it, but didn't mention any potential formation?

Yeah I just checked and it was opinion that it might be 4231, but AP doesn't think 433 would suit, 4231 would be the obvious alternative choice as a temporary formation though.

Gilzeanking · Jun 24, 2023

spurs9 said:
My point was more about Jota being no better in the PL for that role, but I also disagree that the wide player needs to be a dribbly hug the touchline winger, Jota often comes inside into the channels and Son is capable of going wide pulling the ball back or crossing.

Here are all of Jota's goals and assists last season (and other highlights). As you will see, the wingers in Postecoglou's system don't hug the wings and cross on the outside like people would have you believe. A fully fit Son is more than capable of playing that role.

Crikey ! Love those clips.

I must've drifted on the latest info, any chance we get him ?

*edit* Ahh no just an example of AP's winger system :cry:

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