Utilising our squad - formations

Neon_Knight_ · Jun 6, 2023

pedrodelawasp said:
Lately, City haven’t been using wing backs at all, though. The system has been a 3241 or 3223 (sort of like the very old school WM formation).

————————GK————————
———RB———-CB————LB——-
—————CDM——-CDM————-
RW———RAM———-LAM———-LW
————————ST————————

There is a lot of fluidity about those positions, though.

Full backs can operate as centre backs effectively, or they can push on with one of the defensive midfielders dropping in to cover.

Those same defensive midfielder, though, can also act more like hybrid 6/8s or box to box midfielders, with the role seemingly changing throughout the game.

The attacking midfielders can drop a little deeper to receive the ball at times and overload the middle of the park, or they can run beyond to either receive balls from the inverted wingers or to create space for them when they cut inside.

I like it a lot as a system.

I also liek the system, but it requires a lot of fluidity that some of our current players lack the ability / versatility for.

Emerson, Dier and Davies are proven to have the required versatility (despite each having some shortcomings), but Porro, Perisic & Sessegnon would be at high risk of leaving us defensively exposed in this system.

There's talk of us signing Laporte, which I would be strongly in favour of, but Pep has clearly deemed him to be less suitable to this system than other players at his disposal.

We also can't overlook the tactical preferences and abilities of our new manager. I expect him to improve us, but I don't expect him to demonstrate the same level of inspired tactical genius as Pep (or to attempt to!). Tactically, I think Ange is more on Poch's level.

van_Pommel · Jun 6, 2023

Our squad is nowhere near being able to play anything like that new Pep system. Hopefully by next season if Ange fancies it.

Based on his Celtic 433 with inverted wing backs we desperately need GK and left sided CB. Personally I think Udogie and Porro/Emerson would be able to learn the IWB role. Particularly in Porro's case where he can push up into the right half space and put a De Bruyne cross into the box like he did the other week. In midfield we could do with a more creative CM but presumably this will be reliant on getting players out as we have a lot of midfielders so might have to make do for a while.

GK
Porro-----Romero----LCB-----Udogie
Bissouma
Bentancur--------Ndombele
Kulusevski--------------------------------Sonny
Kane

jpascavitz · Jun 6, 2023

van_Pommel said:
Our squad is nowhere near being able to play anything like that new Pep system. Hopefully by next season if Ange fancies it.

Based on his Celtic 433 with inverted wing backs we desperately need GK and left sided CB. Personally I think Udogie and Porro/Emerson would be able to learn the IWB role. Particularly in Porro's case where he can push up into the right half space and put a De Bruyne cross into the box like he did the other week. In midfield we could do with a more creative CM but presumably this will be reliant on getting players out as we have a lot of midfielders so might have to make do for a while.

GK
Porro-----Romero----LCB-----Udogie
Bissouma
Bentancur--------Ndombele
Kulusevski--------------------------------Sonny
Kane

Just a point - I could actually see Porro/Emerson and Udogie/LB playing off of each other. I believe he did this a bit at Celtic. The RB was a bit more overlapping than the LB. Kind of like we saw with Mourinho - Davies tucked in (similar to Ake at City for some time) to form the inverted LB role. It won't be exactly the same but it wouldn't surprise me if we had those two options on either side. Porro the more "attacking" RB, Emerson more of a compliment to Udogie and vice versa.

brasil_spur · Jun 6, 2023

philip said:
So, we have no idea which manager will be coming in, or which DoF, and definitely don't know who will be making decisions about signing players etc.
This got me thinking. The last thing we need is another complete revolution, with a fire sale to get rid of players the new team don't want, and the inevitable long drawn out buying sagas.

The vast majority of our sqaud are either confirmed CL quality players, or have proven themselves as top 6 /potential CL quality at other clubs previously. For example, although they might not have shown it here yet, most everyone would agree that Bissouma & PEH showed enough before they came here to be clear top 6/CL quality.

Our strengths are clearly
5+ out and out attacking wingbacks
5+ All-action CMs.
A top class front 3 (if we keep Kane)

Our weakness is primarily central defence, though we have in Romero, a top class CB as good as any, and the other CB are no worse than most other PL teams who did manage to keep goals out.

The reason we mostly shipped goals this season was primarily the system. 3-4-3, especially when it's end up being a 5-2-3 defensively, simply doesn't work. We've been overrun in the middle of the park, and invited far too much pressure on the CBs. Any defence will crack &/or produce stupid individual errors when it's constantly under pressure.

The other weakness is clearly Lloris, who is in my opinion a liability as he doesn't control his box and doesn't give his teenagers any confidence.

So, my solution is as follows. We go down a Hoddle inspired sweeper system - ie with a sweeper in front of the defence - the role Ledley did amazingly well at. This sweeper can either be a ball playing CB, for when we feel we need more defensive nous, or a DM/CM for when we want to be more attacking.

So

------------New Keeper-------------

-------Romero----- --Davies---------

Porro---------Skipp/PEH---------Udogie

------Bentancur-----Bissouma/Sarr----

Richarlison------Kane----------Son.

Second team.

-------------Forster----------------

------Dier-----------Sanchez-------

Royal--------Skipp/PEH------Sessegnon

-------Bissouma/Sarr-----Winks-------

Gil---------Parrott/Scarlett-------Perisic

Ok, so the defence and front line in the second team might need work, but these teams have also left out

Kulusevski (loan)
Lenglet (loan)
Reguilon
Ndombele
Rodon
Spence
Lo Celso

Signed no one, and apart from one striker, taken no one from the academy, and yet seems on paper a very strong team, playing to our strengths, and flexible enough to cope with pressure, or to attack.

What do you think?

I'm not sure we have 5 out and out attacking wing backs. On the right we have Porro and possibly Spence (to be seen in the PL). On the left we have Udogie (yet to be seen in PL) and Perisic, who frankly worries me in a wing back role as I think in the PL he's not suited to any role that is even somewhat defensive.

Emerson is a RB that can be deployed as an attacking full back. Sess and Reggie are attacking full backs. Davies is a LB who again can be deployed in a slightly more attacking role if needed.

I'm also not sure i'd describe our midfielders as all action. I wouldn't trust any of them in a goal scoring capacity and some of them are clearly not DMs either. We basically have 5 very good CMs with mixed CM attributes between them.

I know you have some of the players above listed as second team players, but for me there are a number of players that I don't think it's effective for us to continue with next season. I'll obviously back Ange if he feels he can get a tune out of them, but right now I can't see any future for: Lloris, Dier, Winks & Ndombele.

Now let's look at the basic formation that Ange is likely to go with, although this gets tweeked from game to game and in game.

Personally based on the current set of players I think we could line-up like this:

- New GK -
- Romero ---------------- New CB -
- Porro/Emerson ------------------------------------------ Udogie/Sess/Reggie/Davies -
- Skipp/Sarr -
- Bentancur/PEH --------------------- Lo Celso/Bissouma -
- Kulusevski/Gil ------------- Kane ------------------------ Son -

- Forster -
- Sanchez ---------------- Lenglet -
- Porro/Emerson/Spence ------------------------------------------ Udogie/Sess/Reggie/Davies -
- Skipp/Sarr -
- Bentancur/PEH --------------------- Lo Celso/Bissouma -
- Kulusevski/Gil ------------ Richarlison/Furuhashi --------- Richarlison/Furuhashi -

So in theory I reckon we could get away with only making the following signings in the summer:
Lenglet (£15m)
New GK: Raya (£35m)
New CB: Ndicka (FREE)
New FW/LW: Furuhashi (£25m)
TOTAL: £75m

Outgoings then become:
Lloris (FREE)
Dier (£5m)
Winks (FREE)
Tanganga (FREE)
Sess or Reggie (£5m)
Perisic (FREE)
Rodon (£5m)
Ndombele (£10m)
TOTAL: £25m

That's a net spend of £50m, with the core of the current squad remaining but a few key additions. It then would give us a 25 man squad for next season of:

Raya (HG), Forster (HG), Austin (HG), Porro, Spence (HG), Emerson, Romero, Sanchez, Ndicka, Lenglet, Davies (HG), Udogie, Sessegnon(HG), Skipp (HG), Sarr, Bentancur, PEH, Lo Celso, Bissouma, Gil, Kulusevksi, Richarlison, Kane (HG), Furuhashi & Son.

bubble07 · Jun 6, 2023

You'd think a hard working mobile striker is what we have in Brazils number 9?

bubble07 · Jun 6, 2023

A GK and CB are the key signings. We can't go budget on them. We somehow need our Liverpool Alisson and VVD moment

mil1lion · Jun 6, 2023

I think we will play one defensive full back with one advanced mostly in a 433. Of the players we have now would look something like this for Ange

Lloris /Forster
Emerson/Spence/Porro---Romero/Sanchez---Dier/Rodon---Udogie/Davies
Bissouma/Skipp
Kulusevski/Lo Celso/Devine---Bentancur/Hojbjerg/Sarr
Porro/Kulusevski-‐---‐Son/Gil/Scarlett
Kane/Richarlison

There's a clear need to strengthen in defence. With the fullback/wingback variation I think we have the defensive full back Emerson or Davies with the winger Porro or Gil in front to create attacking width. With the advanced full back options Spence, Porro or Udogie we have Son, Scarlett or Kulusevski to play in front as an inside attacker, Richarlison can do that too.

I put Kulusevski also as an attacking central option as think he can also play that role when Porro starts on the right. It wouldn't be the end of the world for me if we just replace Lloris, Rodon and Sanchez but obviously we could do with more. Then others omitted from the above tean cleared out but dont need replacing as we have enough numbers above. That's the minimum I feel we need to get sorted. I'm happy to give some youth more chances though.

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jun 6, 2023

We will 100% need to sign at least 1 extremely strong 1 on 1 dribbler for Wing Forward.

I think Kulusevski will be utilised in a CM role (the De Bruyne role) which O'Riley plays for Celtic.

So we will probably need a WF for each side.

Son and Deki are the only 2 players who can even moderately run with the ball and beat defenders and even they aren't masters of it while Deki also lacks pace.

Ange will want quick players out wide who can take people on.

Flobadob · Jun 6, 2023

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
We will 100% need to sign at least 1 extremely strong 1 on 1 dribbler for Wing Forward.

I think Kulusevski will be utilised in a CM role (the De Bruyne role) which O'Riley plays for Celtic.

So we will probably need a WF for each side.

Son and Deki are the only 2 players who can even moderately run with the ball and beat defenders and even they aren't masters of it while Deki also lacks pace.

Ange will want quick players out wide who can take people on.

Yep. From what I hear he likes out and out wingers who create 1v1 situations with the fullback, so I agree we’ll need a fast RW over any CAM purchase, Kulusevski can play there

van_Pommel · Jun 6, 2023

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
We will 100% need to sign at least 1 extremely strong 1 on 1 dribbler for Wing Forward.

I think Kulusevski will be utilised in a CM role (the De Bruyne role) which O'Riley plays for Celtic.

So we will probably need a WF for each side.

Son and Deki are the only 2 players who can even moderately run with the ball and beat defenders and even they aren't masters of it while Deki also lacks pace.

Ange will want quick players out wide who can take people on.

Wonder if he might have a look at Lo Celso for that O'Riley role. They seem quite similar.

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jun 6, 2023

The other reason I can see Deki playing that O'Riley role potentially is O'Riley is one of the main components of the press and counter press.

When Celtic lose it, he pushes up alongside the striker to press in a 4-4-2 shape.

Deki is actually one of our best pressers. I remember coming across a stat a month or so ago that said he had more pressures than any other player since the World Cup or something. He's also intelligent, he will be able to learn and follow the pressing triggers and patterns.

In possession, O'Riley is the more aggressive of the 2 8's, the one tasked with being a bit more direct and getting in the box too. I think Deki could do this when you consider his past as a 10 at Parma and CM/10 at Atalanta.

rabbikeane · Jun 6, 2023

Just as an example of a simple tactical overview I can imagine how Postecoglou would like us playing, with current squad and a couple of obvious holes filled. Udogie going forward with inverted winger Son infront of him. Emerson inverted fullback with Porro playing wide right. In our squad we'd have option to switch sides for the wide roles with Bryan as left wing, and Kulusevski inverted on the right.

Nick-TopSpursMan · Jun 6, 2023

rabbikeane said:
Just as an example of a simple tactical overview I can imagine how Postecoglou would like us playing, with current squad and a couple of obvious holes filled. Udogie going forward with inverted winger Son infront of him. Emerson inverted fullback with Porro playing wide right. In our squad we'd have option to switch sides for the wide roles with Bryan as left wing, and Kulusevski inverted on the right.

View attachment 127342

From my understanding and research of Postecoglu and his tactics, there will be several differences to this.

1. Both WF's will hold the width

2. Both FB's will invert to a narrow position either side of the 6.

3. The 2 x 8's will push up in to the half spaces between the WF's and the striker.

mil1lion · Jun 6, 2023

rabbikeane said:
Just as an example of a simple tactical overview I can imagine how Postecoglou would like us playing, with current squad and a couple of obvious holes filled. Udogie going forward with inverted winger Son infront of him. Emerson inverted fullback with Porro playing wide right. In our squad we'd have option to switch sides for the wide roles with Bryan as left wing, and Kulusevski inverted on the right.

View attachment 127342

Put Kane and Kulusevski in for Richarlison and Lo Celso and that's what I think our first team could look like. No idea who the GK or LCB will be but they are the clear priority signings who need to be first team quality.

DJS · Jun 6, 2023

Porro would play right midfield / attack and wouldn’t be anywhere near right back for me.

He should be competing with Kulusevski for that right side, or we could potentially go:

Raya(?)

Emerson Romero Laporte(?) Ugarte / Reggy

Skipp Bissouma

Porro Kulusevski Son

Kane

Obviously Bentancur to come back in, but taking into account he won’t be starting next season.

Still need an attacking midfielder to provide options and if we signed Maddison he’d be in over Kulusevski on current form (although players should have to fight for place in side, it not be a given).

rabbikeane · Jun 6, 2023

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
From my understanding and research of Postecoglu and his tactics, there will be several differences to this.

1. Both WF's will hold the width

2. Both FB's will invert to a narrow position either side of the 6.

3. The 2 x 8's will push up in to the half spaces between the WF's and the striker.

You're not wrong, but the inverted full backs haven't followed him his entire career. And he'll have Udogie at Spurs with very few other options. And despite being inverted full backs they tend to be right foot on right side, left foot on left side. While the left winger more often a right footed, though Jota can use both very well.
Agree with the two no 8, but from what I've seen it seems one of them go forward faster and more frequently while the other have more defensive/stabilizing instruction. Have to remember that Celtic totally dominate their domestic opponents and are allowed to stay high in a power play mode. We will probably not be allowed the same.

Don't think we should rule out Højbjerg for no 8 neither, even if he's not the best on the ball.

pedrodelawasp · Jun 6, 2023

Neon_Knight_ said:
I also liek the system, but it requires a lot of fluidity that some of our current players lack the ability / versatility for.

Emerson, Dier and Davies are proven to have the required versatility (despite each having some shortcomings), but Porro, Perisic & Sessegnon would be at high risk of leaving us defensively exposed in this system.

There's talk of us signing Laporte, which I would be strongly in favour of, but Pep has clearly deemed him to be less suitable to this system than other players at his disposal.

We also can't overlook the tactical preferences and abilities of our new manager. I expect him to improve us, but I don't expect him to demonstrate the same level of inspired tactical genius as Pep (or to attempt to!). Tactically, I think Ange is more on Poch's level.

I didn’t outright say it, but I’m not expecting us to play this system either!

I was responding to a post saying we might do so, utilising attacking wing backs, and I was pointing out that Pep’s system doesn’t use wing backs, then got a bit carried away describing the way I see it

delawarespur · Jun 6, 2023

Posted this in the next manager thread yesterday, feel it is suitable here:

IF Ange continues to use his 433, I think it would look something like this (235 in buildup).

Son Kane Porro
Ndombele/10 Kulusevski
Udogie Højbjerg Bissouma
LCB Romero
GK

442 pressing shape with the 10 pressing the CBs/opposing pivot player(s) with Kane.

We obviously need a GK, and in this case, a super athletic LCB who excels in 1v1s (Kalulu becomes my ideal target in this case). An explosive 1v1 touchline winger to replace Danjuma/compete with Son (Solomon kind of works, but Laurienté, Nico Williams, Doku, Barnes my ideal targets). A creative mid (Maddison or similar).

I will say, IF Ange takes to Ndombele and can get him working how he wants him to, I think he’d be great in that advanced inside left role in possession. Big if, but possible. Højbjerg probably our best option in the 6 until Bentancur is fit due to passing range, but we don’t really have a natural fit there (again if Ange replicates his Celtic system). Could also make a signing in this position. Richarlison quite a good fit of Kane goes (Nico Jackson would be a great affordable Kane replacement; Kolo Muani if we go big). Son up top also works if Kane goes and spend bigger on LW (is Mitoma possible?). Another option in possession would be a more static midfield three and Udogie occupies the inside left. Like others have said, he’s not a crosser but I think can invert really well and great at arriving in the box/finishing moves.

I will say, the biggest weakness will be the fullbacks’ defensive awareness/general defensive ability. I don’t love Son wide left in Ange’s system, and as I already said, the 6 could be an issue. But love the fit for Kulusevski and Bissouma in particular. Be prepared for some early defensive horror shows, but I think this could turn out great if Ange is given time and support.

FrankSpencer · Jun 6, 2023

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
We will 100% need to sign at least 1 extremely strong 1 on 1 dribbler for Wing Forward.

I think Kulusevski will be utilised in a CM role (the De Bruyne role) which O'Riley plays for Celtic.

So we will probably need a WF for each side.

Son and Deki are the only 2 players who can even moderately run with the ball and beat defenders and even they aren't masters of it while Deki also lacks pace.

Ange will want quick players out wide who can take people on.

I’d still like us to have a go for Pedro Neto. He had a tough time last season following his injury, but he has bags of ability would work in the system.

fishhhandaricecake · Jun 6, 2023

It’ll be 4-3-3 under Big Ange I reckon.

Dan KP says the following players futures are under threat: (surprised that Tanganga isn’t on that list poss because he’s homegrown)
Hugo Lloris • Ivan Perisic • Eric Dier • Ben Davies • Davinson Sanchez • Ryan Sessegnon • Giovani Lo Celso • Sergio Reguilon • Harry Winks • Bryan Gil

Id like to see Reggi as a LB in Big Ange’s 4-3-3 and Lo Celso as one of the midfield options and possibly keep Gil as a young squad winger option but the rest can go.

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