ENIC - The Poll

Dazzazzad said:

A vicious cycle of steady economic strength, growing infrastructure and (bar a few blips) forcing ourselves into a regular top 4 and top 20 in Europe.

I'm as frustrated as the post Poch years as anyone but the way people go on...

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? “Steady economic strength. You’ll never sing that”!! I think every genuine supporter of this club is so bored of this tired apologist argument. “Steady economic strength” only has value if it translates into a willingness to win things. Unfortunately it’s clear that the ceiling for ambition under these owners appears to be “top 4 and top 20 in Europe”.
You, like them, seem content with that. Well, good for you! But after 22 years, 1 trophy, the highest ticket prices in the country and the promise that the stadium would be a “game changer”, I’d say about 86% of the fan base disagrees with you. If you’re as frustrated as you say you are then make your voice heard. Or don’t. As is your choice. But don’t sneer at those that are protesting for change and trivialise our grievances as just “going on a bit”.
ENIC Out

Gb160 said:

Its a simple question, Enic in or Enic out.
More than a couple of posters have stated 'I want Enic out but chose Enic In because sports washing dictators blah blah' which completely misses the point of the poll and skews the result slightly.

The other poll about QSI investment was where you get to voice such opinions...for this poll the question of potential alternative owners shouldn't even be a factor.

It's still an absolute bloodbath regardless... the fans want change at the top.

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Something I find interesting is how simple a lot people view it. The fact is that it's not a simple situation at all. I understand that on a forum it doesn't really matter, and this poll is deliberately simplified, but it does end up missing a lot of people's opinions.

I agree with you that most fans want to see a change at the top. For me, the most important change is a change of action rather than just a change of personnel. Personally I think it would be a cherry on the cake if it was Levy who could change his ways and oversee our success, but in reality I don't give a shit if it's him or not. Having said that, I don't believe that just by getting rid of Levy we are instantly gonna win trophies.

My biggest worry about ENIC/Levy at the moment is that I'm not sure they have the tools to run a club with our earning potential. They sure knew how to build it up, and I would say there has been some sort of shift over the past few windows (since Paratici), but it hasn't yet felt like the proper approach. That might take a bit of time to be fair.

SirNiNyHotspur said:

Let's break that down as for some reason you're still eager to defend ENIC, can't be for football success, maybe you have financial gain from them, I don't know, anyway there are lots of articles comparing last 5 years expenditure so let's use that to simplify things, not including our frugal January but including the famous 0 spend summer in preparation for the opening of the game changing stadium, I'm sure you'd like to forget about that one! But there's no reason why we couldn't have spent that summer with projected income if indeed the stadium was the great game changer we were promised, indeed our net spend was so low consistently before the stadium playing catch up meant some major investment was needed then new stadium or not!

1st Man Utd 340m spent more than us (70m more PA)

2nd Chelsea 330m more no Abramovich to blame for that! (65m more PA and not counting Jan!)

3rd Arsenal over 200m (40m more PA)

4th West Ham over 50m (10m more PA)

5th Us (with years of frugality and playing catch up after being out spent by small clubs for many years)

6th Newcastle 10m less (2m less PA 3 years with Ashley)

7th Aston Villa 50m less (10m less PA)

8th Wolves 50m less (10m less PA)

9th Liverpool 60m less (built majority of their squad whilst we were frugal)

10th Man City 100m less (built majority of their squad whilst we were frugal)

11th Fulham 120 less (25 less PA)

12th Leeds 140m less (30 less PA)

13th Notts Forest 150m less (30m less PA)

14th Everton 150m less (30m less PA)

15th Southampton 200m less (40m less PA)

Bournemouth, Brentford, Brighton, Palace and Leicester all very low net spenders.

Above are all rough estimates, not even factoring wages etc for the bigger clubs. But our new game changing stadium that we waited 20 years for patiently whilst we won nothing now gets us spending 10m a year more than Wolves and Villa on players! I hear you, but you're comparing 5 years not 4! I get it, you want to be favorable with ENIC and say they were afraid to spend Summer 18 as the stadium was delayed blah blah So let's do what you want and include what Wolves have spent 20m this January, Villa 12m, which with your 4 years comparison still puts us the around same as Villa spending! and a bit better from Wolves.

But we don't need all these figures to tell us, we know that ENIC aren't ambitious to win things, they spend what they can get away with before the stadium and now it's the same, they spend what they can get away with after the stadium (obviously they could no longer have us at Palace levels of spending with the new stadium, not to mention our squads dire need as even then the BSoDL would revolt! you probably wouldn't though...)

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I figured I should reply to this because I gave it a negative rating. In my opinion, this is the exact sort of problem with where football fans seem to be heading. Why do you have to be so snide (bolded parts)? What does your argument gain by acting that way? Why are you so confident in those numbers that you act that arrogantly? You mention yourself that the numbers are rough estimates so it can't be wise to go so hard in on them.

What your analysis appears to show (in my eyes) is that voicing your opinion has become more important than the bare facts. The comments by each team aren't necessary. I want to be careful with my words, but we do see this sort of flitting-here-and-there behaviour a lot in these sorts of conversations. Somebody might state a negative point, but rather than discussing that point in a bit more depth they prefer to jump to the next negative... and the next... and the next.

Before you know it, that person has a head full of negativity and I reckon it makes the situation look far worse than it actually is. And this goes for ENIC, for Conte, for every match thread and a good chunk of the player threads. It's not good.

The reason I mention it to you is because I think your forum handle "£NICOUT!Jan12StratfordJan16Summer18FurloughESLNuno" matches that sort of stream of negative consciousness. I'm not saying you should change it or anything, and I'm 100% not saying your views are any less valid than anyone else's. Just wanting to point out that it isn't all doom and gloom.

I appreciate that @DiVaio didn't cite his claim of 4th biggest net spend in the world. Perhaps that's common knowledge somewhere (??), but without any parameters around it, I don't think it's very useful. Also, net spend is surely the biggest red herring out. It's so simplistic that it can't be used to properly judge much. The more important thing is how a squad is managed, not just a net spend figure.

As I mentioned above, I've got my own doubts that ENIC have the ability to properly use the revenues they have helped the club build (through all of us). But genuinely, I think dwelling on all the negativity of "20 years this" and "net spend that" isn't appropriate, and more importantly it isn't healthy. Levy doesn't give a toss about you or I, so I find it hard to see people getting wound up by him. He's not worth it!

[email protected] said:

? “Steady economic strength. You’ll never sing that”!! I think every genuine supporter of this club is so bored of this tired apologist argument. “Steady economic strength” only has value if it translates into a willingness to win things. Unfortunately it’s clear that the ceiling for ambition under these owners appears to be “top 4 and top 20 in Europe”.
You, like them, seem content with that. Well, good for you! But after 22 years, 1 trophy, the highest ticket prices in the country and the promise that the stadium would be a “game changer”, I’d say about 86% of the fan base disagrees with you. If you’re as frustrated as you say you are then make your voice heard. Or don’t. As is your choice. But don’t sneer at those that are protesting for change and trivialise our grievances as just “going on a bit”.
ENIC Out

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Good to see you post John, hope you're doing well.
Seems like a long time since I was banging the BSODL drum

On that note I feel a lot of the remaining Enic supporters are doing it mainly through habit, there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing an opinion over time... generally speaking these entrenched opinions can drag these forums down at times.

Gb160 said:

Its a simple question, Enic in or Enic out.
More than a couple of posters have stated 'I want Enic out but chose Enic In because sports washing dictators blah blah' which completely misses the point of the poll and skews the result slightly.

The other poll about QSI investment was where you get to voice such opinions...for this poll the question of potential alternative owners shouldn't even be a factor.

It's still an absolute bloodbath regardless... the fans want change at the top.

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It’s a simple question but a stupid poll. How are you supposed to make such a call when you don’t even know who you’d be replacing them with? Would I get rid of ENIC if it meant Dave down the pub was in charge? It’s a good example of why referendums are shit in politics.

If the poll had a few more qualifiers then fine but just asking ENIC in or out is pretty pointless imo.

McArchibald said:

...But total neglect in building up a scouting and recruitment apparatus to ensure that money is spent wisely. Nor a willingness on Levy's part to let the football professionals get on with their jobs without his meddling and interference.

Give it up. ENIC have in the past 22 years proven beyond all reasonable doubt that they don't have a clue how to achieve on-field success. The move to the new stadium has only highlighted that fact. Whatever they might have done before, they are obviously incapable of getting the club to make the next step. Time is up. Clear off ENIC.

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Fine, I'm more open to other arguments. The penny pinching argument, in recent years, is bs tho.

As an aside, I bet our recruitment record stacks up pretty well against the rest of the league.

Bale, Modric, Lloris, Eriksen, Kulu, Romero, Bentancur, Toby, Jan, Walker, Dembele, Son...

Gb160 said:

Good to see you post John, hope you're doing well.
Seems like a long time since I was banging the BSODL drum

On that note I feel a lot of the remaining Enic supporters are doing it mainly through habit, there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing an opinion over time... generally speaking these entrenched opinions can drag these forums down at times.

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I’m great thanks GB. I hope you’re really well too. Most definitely mate. It feels like there’s a growing determination among the fan base to consistently hold Levy to account. That can only be a good thing. In particular GB I think it’s been incredible to hear our supporters be so vocal in their criticism; especially at away games. They really are a credit to this Club. Take good care mate!

[email protected] said:

? “Steady economic strength. You’ll never sing that”!! I think every genuine supporter of this club is so bored of this tired apologist argument. “Steady economic strength” only has value if it translates into a willingness to win things. Unfortunately it’s clear that the ceiling for ambition under these owners appears to be “top 4 and top 20 in Europe”.
You, like them, seem content with that. Well, good for you! But after 22 years, 1 trophy, the highest ticket prices in the country and the promise that the stadium would be a “game changer”, I’d say about 86% of the fan base disagrees with you. If you’re as frustrated as you say you are then make your voice heard. Or don’t. As is your choice. But don’t sneer at those that are protesting for change and trivialise our grievances as just “going on a bit”.
ENIC Out

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Please explain to me how appointing Jose and Conte isn't a willingness to win things. And massively increasing our net spend. And wage bill. And amassing one of the biggest squads in the league (which Levy must struggle with because it is financial waste).

I don't sneer at anti Levy/ENIC people, I sneer at arguments I feel are not reflective of reality like "they don't want to win things" and "they are penny pinching". I also sneer at those who use their success as a stick to beat them with - "we're 8th richest club in the world, why don't we act like it!" Completely ignoring how that financial might and stability came about. The economic growth IS what has enabled us to compete, it is what brings in the shiny new toys that everyone wants, it is what has created a foundation for the club to have on-field success against financially doped clubs.

Arguments about managerial appointments, lack of communication, a messy plan, the lack of silverware, can they take us to the very top - those arguments I am much more open to and debate myself.

Dazzazzad said:

Please explain to me how appointing Jose and Conte isn't a willingness to win things. And massively increasing our net spend. And wage bill. And amassing one of the biggest squads in the league (which Levy must struggle with because it is financial waste).

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Those two appointments are one of the bigger issues here.

Youre right they have increased spend etc but they haven't done so anywhere near enough to keep those two happy.

The carrot has been constantly pushed further away but we're now at a stage where they have zero excuses. Were in a league where Bournemouth will drop 30 million quid on a player, it's crazy but the money swarming around has let them build on this property so now they have to back up the other end of the bargain.

I appreciate you said your open to hearing debates about planning as that's my main gripe but when you spend decades telling fans that this stadium will be a game changer and then it's built and you're in the same spot as before it was built then of course people are going to be angry

Dazzazzad said:

I can't understand how people are arguing against this.

There has been a demonstrably clear shift in willingness to spend post Covid and stadium.

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The only reason that Levy may have increased the investment in the squad is because we now have a manager with a big pair of balls between his legs that is prepared to walk if he isn’t given the tools that he needs to do his job properly. Levy knows the backlash he will face if he screws up yet again! And even then, Levy still needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to get a signing over the line. Pedro Porro is your perfect example. Every single transfer window, we are scraping around trying to get deals done in the dying minutes just to save a few quid. It’s all so short-sighted and it’s NEVER about what is best for the team. Porro should have been signed up on the 1st Jan if that is who Antonio had identified as our top target. And if Skriniar is now available for €20m as is being widely reported, then if Levy had any ambition whatsoever, we should be all over it before Tuesday night.

Another thing worth mentioning is this notion we have the fourth highest bet spend in the WORLD.

Well yeah every other league is skint, the Premier League is a financial juggernaut as seen by the moans coming out of Italy right now. Even the mighty Barcelona are mainly doing freebies etc and look at the mess Juve have got themselves in.

Add nuance to that stat aswell. How many teams were competing with have much more established sides who don't need a rebuild and just adding touches to move forward. Add the detail around pricing of tickets and merchandising, add the notion of we should have patience for this game hanging stadium and then look at us.

Were right at the end of a window where we will likely sign a much needed right wing back and that's it apart from a loan deal who we stole off the relegation candidates, that's not game changing is it? That's looking for a cheap deal. Even the info about maybe doing more was centered around contracts coming to an end. Again not game changing at all.

I put this to the people who still have faith. What's the plan? It's quite apparent we can't /won't compete with the top clubs so why have they appointed the two most demanding ' win now' managers in the world? What type of player are we profiling, is there a system of football being taught throughout all ages at the club? How do they plan to compete with top clubs and what are they doing that will close the gap? Are they working smarter?

It seems to me like levy sees us as an elite team in every way except when it comes to on the pitch. And surely that's an issue?

E17yid said:

It’s a simple question but a stupid poll. How are you supposed to make such a call when you don’t even know who you’d be replacing them with? Would I get rid of ENIC if it meant Dave down the pub was in charge? It’s a good example of why referendums are shit in politics.

If the poll had a few more qualifiers then fine but just asking ENIC in or out is pretty pointless imo.

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Absolutely 100% this. There are so many potential owners out there who could drag us back down to mid table or worse.

There are a few potential owners who could elevate us to be challenging for trophies but I've no idea if any of them will buy us and some of them come with some pretty dodgy backgrounds.

The question means little without knowing what you're getting rid of ENIC for.

[email protected] said:

? “Steady economic strength. You’ll never sing that”!! I think every genuine supporter of this club is so bored of this tired apologist argument. “Steady economic strength” only has value if it translates into a willingness to win things. Unfortunately it’s clear that the ceiling for ambition under these owners appears to be “top 4 and top 20 in Europe”.
You, like them, seem content with that. Well, good for you! But after 22 years, 1 trophy, the highest ticket prices in the country and the promise that the stadium would be a “game changer”, I’d say about 86% of the fan base disagrees with you. If you’re as frustrated as you say you are then make your voice heard. Or don’t. As is your choice. But don’t sneer at those that are protesting for change and trivialise our grievances as just “going on a bit”.
ENIC Out

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Fantastic post ?

Albertbarich said:

Those two appointments are one of the bigger issues here.

Your right they have increased spend etc but they haven't done so anywhere near enough to keep those two happy.

The carrot has been constantly pushed further away but we're now at a stage where they have zero excuses. Were in a league where Bournemouth will drop 30 million quid on a player, it's crazy but the money swarming around has let them build on this property so now they have to back up the other end of the bargain.

I appreciate you said your open to hearing debates about planning as that's my main gripe but when you spend decades telling fans that this stadium will be a game changer and then it's built and you're in the same spot as before it was built then of course people are going to be angry

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The idea that transfer spending hasn't increased since the stadium and Covid is just incorrect- there has been a step up. Only the oil dopers and Man Utd have spent more than us and Arsenal by £50m, which is basically one deal over the line these days. We've spent more than Liverpool over that time and built a world class stadium. Maybe you'd prefer the league title during that Covid season they had but does it count for much now?


It's true ENIC were too cautious and should have spent more with the Poch and Harry peaks, but other than that (and the Stratford bid) they've followed a more interesting strategy than just selling up to whoever and hoping for the best imho.

E17yid said:

It’s a simple question but a stupid poll. How are you supposed to make such a call when you don’t even know who you’d be replacing them with? Would I get rid of ENIC if it meant Dave down the pub was in charge? It’s a good example of why referendums are shit in politics.

If the poll had a few more qualifiers then fine but just asking ENIC in or out is pretty pointless imo.

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See where you’re coming from but it does just give a general sense of feeling towards ENIC/Levy at this current time.

If it was an overwhelming positive feeling then the % swing would be the other way round but it’s 86% ENIC out because most spurs fans are willing to roll the dice on new owners, possibly the QSI or some other similar organisation and with the set up we have in terms of infrastructure all they’d need to do would be half decent/competent in terms of a football plan/strategy and invest a reasonable amount and we’d have far more chance of success than we ever will under the current owners.

[email protected] said:

? “Steady economic strength. You’ll never sing that”!! I think every genuine supporter of this club is so bored of this tired apologist argument. “Steady economic strength” only has value if it translates into a willingness to win things. Unfortunately it’s clear that the ceiling for ambition under these owners appears to be “top 4 and top 20 in Europe”.
You, like them, seem content with that. Well, good for you! But after 22 years, 1 trophy, the highest ticket prices in the country and the promise that the stadium would be a “game changer”, I’d say about 86% of the fan base disagrees with you. If you’re as frustrated as you say you are then make your voice heard. Or don’t. As is your choice. But don’t sneer at those that are protesting for change and trivialise our grievances as just “going on a bit”.
ENIC Out

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John Weldon - take a bow!!

Nail on the head my friend. If anyone in confused about the fact that our club is a football club rather then a normal business, then they should go buy some shares in google or whatever.

It’s not about the balance sheet, it’s not about the fucking property portfolio, it should only be about the football and achieving success on the pitch. Everything else is an irrelevance.

For ENIC and Levy, it has never been about the football in their 22 /23 years running our club and for that reason alone, they need to go.

Dazzazzad said:

Fine, I'm more open to other arguments. The penny pinching argument, in recent years, is bs tho.

As an aside, I bet our recruitment record stacks up pretty well against the rest of the league.

Bale, Modric, Lloris, Eriksen, Kulu, Romero, Bentancur, Toby, Jan, Walker, Dembele, Son...

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I'm sure most of the top clubs in the league could produce a list of 12 good signings across a decade or more though. I know you were replying to a fairly non-contextual post, but looking back at a list like that without our own context is a bit moot. And you forgot Chimbonda!!

Context is so important with this discussion. Like you, I get pretty frustrated by some of the arguments made, particularly the ones I see as overly simplistic. Conflating the ideas of highest ticket prices with 22 years of ownership implies we have had the highest prices for 22 years, which isn't the case. And the stadium "game changer" stuff is seemingly said as if we would transform as a club overnight once the doors were open, which I think is unrealistic.

I think your list of players there actually shows that any club can be successful with a bit of luck. I don't think we did anything particularly special with the signings of Bale or Walker for example, it's just that those players went on to far exceed what many would have expected. There is no club in the world who have a 100% record of picking world class players under the age of 20. It's all hit and miss, but as a Spurs fan it's natural to not be aware of all the misses other clubs are making.

For me, the owners have to be judged in context throughout their time here. I think the first 15 or so years were pretty well managed, given the context of what was happening in the PL and our position as a club. The years of stadium building were probably as expected from an ownership point of view (i.e. low player spending) but we have the anomaly of Poch making that team sing. I have now begun viewing ENIC in a new context of the stadium open, and importantly being post-pandemic, and finding a mixed bag so far.

On a positive note, three of those players have been signed under the new setup (Paratici), and we have been spending more than before so there are hopeful signs. But there still feels to be some disconnect there, for example between the appointment of Conte and the deliverance of players. I'm sure there are layers to these things we never get to see, but this January has had a lack of urgency which feels at odds with where our ambitions should be.

Albertbarich said:

I appreciate you said your open to hearing debates about planning as that's my main gripe but when you spend decades telling fans that this stadium will be a game changer and then it's built and you're in the same spot as before it was built then of course people are going to be angry

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I'm in agreement about the managerial appointments, but not sure about this. What position would you say we were in before the stadium? And what position are we in after?

I personally think the position of the club is different. As @[email protected] mentioned earlier, the increased revenue is only worth anything if it gets spent well (or spent at all!), but before the stadium I don't think we would not have been in the position to spend like we did last summer. It's maybe not coming as quickly as we would hope, and there are pretty big question marks over the strategy, but I don't think we are in the same position as pre-stadium.

Imagine if we were still at WHL at this moment in time. We surely would have lost Kane already, Arsenal are bedding in as a team and Newcastle are owner by the Saudis. In that scenario I would certainly believe the "mid-table mediocrity" stuff.

Perhaps this is where expectations are so quickly upgraded? Before Poch, I think the idea of us qualifying for the CL was a bit of a pipe dream. The celebrations when we achieved that under Redknapp were testament to that. Somehow Poch got us doing it regularly on a ridiculous budget, and we have reset our expectations as a fan base to that being the absolute minimum.

I'm not trying to say that everything is rosy btw - far from it. But I also don't think everything is negative. I think the club is acting differently since the stadium build, although I don't think it's urgent enough. I also think it's more important to have a sustained plan for improvement rather than trying too much at once. Hopefully the likes of Spence, Udogie, Sarr and Gil bear fruit in years to come (so it's not all doom and gloom) but I do want to see more action in the here and now.

We are business under ENIC, not a football club.

And to be fair they are running a VERY successful business.

OUT please x

vegassd said:

I.


I'm in agreement about the managerial appointments, but not sure about this. What position would you say we were in before the stadium? And what position are we in after?

I personally think the position of the club is different. As @[email protected] mentioned earlier, the increased revenue is only worth anything if it gets spent well (or spent at all!), but before the stadium I don't think we would not have been in the position to spend like we did last summer. It's maybe not coming as quickly as we would hope, and there are pretty big question marks over the strategy, but I don't think we are in the same position as pre-stadium.

Imagine if we were still at WHL at this moment in time. We surely would have lost Kane already, Arsenal are bedding in as a team and Newcastle are owner by the Saudis. In that scenario I would certainly believe the "mid-table mediocrity" stuff.

Perhaps this is where expectations are so quickly upgraded? Before Poch, I think the idea of us qualifying for the CL was a bit of a pipe dream. The celebrations when we achieved that under Redknapp were testament to that. Somehow Poch got us doing it regularly on a ridiculous budget, and we have reset our expectations as a fan base to that being the absolute minimum.

I'm not trying to say that everything is rosy btw - far from it. But I also don't think everything is negative. I think the club is acting differently since the stadium build, although I don't think it's urgent enough. I also think it's more important to have a sustained plan for improvement rather than trying too much at once. Hopefully the likes of Spence, Udogie, Sarr and Gil bear fruit in years to come (so it's not all doom and gloom) but I do want to see more action in the here and now.

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We still can't compete financially with City , United , Chelsea, now Newcastle, Liverpool, even the scum are beating/ matching our spending.

All that's changed is the club has extra money coming , in terms of competing though we're still fifth/sixth richest club.

We have spent, quite ambitiously, but it's been wasted and mismanaged. We need to bring in some smart football people to create a footballing strategy and identity for the club. If you look down the road, you can see how very quickly things change with a solid strategy and canny recruitment. If ENIC do this, then I have no problem with them. But if they don't, and continue to think they can do it themselves, they need to go.

Dazzazzad said:

Fine, I'm more open to other arguments. The penny pinching argument, in recent years, is bs tho.

As an aside, I bet our recruitment record stacks up pretty well against the rest of the league.

Bale, Modric, Lloris, Eriksen, Kulu, Romero, Bentancur, Toby, Jan, Walker, Dembele, Son...

Click to expand...

I hope you realize that these 12 hit signings represent a time-frame of over 16 years... I imagine I could draw up a list of 12 hit signings for most other top clubs over that 16 year period. And that's not the whole transfer picture either, there are other factors in play as well. Did we have a fully rounded squad at all times. Did we always go all out to get the best talent available? Did we fail to complete signings that could have made a real difference?

To me the conclusion that we - despite making the odd outstanding signing - have not been operating succesfully in the transfermarket is inescapable. One trophy during ENICs 22 year tenure underlines that more acutely that any list or comparison ever could. ENIC out