ENIC...

Albertbarich · Jan 6, 2023

ultimateloner said:
Everyone gets opportunities when you stick around. We dont see the circumstancs surrounding those opportunities so its hard to put it against the club when we dont take them (i've already mentioned a couple of possible scenarios; e.g. other clubs jacking up the price).

I'm not sue if that little bald head knows best; but he certainly knows alot. The new stadium is better than any CL/PL title he could have won for us. Case in point is Leicester.

I was going to debate but then I saw this .

Metalhead · Jan 6, 2023

ultimateloner said:
Commercial viability is revenue and cost management. The on-field stuff is one aspect of it and not all.

We are the 9th richest club but there's only 1 PL/CL winner/year. Many other teams are in a better position than us to get those, so I don't see why you expect something to have been won over the last 20 years.

Leceister got lucky and won the PL. They've improved as a club by a bit and the team is now in all sorts of trouble. This shows you that winning a big thing once in a blue moon doesn't do enough good. You need to be consistently competing, and live in hope. Spending beyond your means doesn't help that.

The odds are stacked against a club like ours because we can't buy our way of of any trouble, the way Man Utd can. Therefore we can't make missteps in the first place, which we did (for example Ndom).

I feel it is unfair what you said about our transfer spending. Just looking at our last window: Richy, Perisic etc are all proven players and not ones that Championship clubs (or even mid-table ones) can afford.

Fans forget the duds too soon. Emerson Royal, GLC, Ndom; all costly mistakes. You can't just ignore those and expect the club to continue to spend. We need to recoup/absorb/manage these losses first before we move on.

Tbf, I'm surprised that so much store is put on what we spend. The biggest bugbear by far is how it's been spent.

ultimateloner · Jan 6, 2023

dontcallme said:
I've defended ENIC more than most. The points you make aren't completely invalid.

However, there are big questions that have to be asked.

What happened to the naming rights of the stadium? For a while it seemed that due to the pandemic we might have struggled to get the best possible deal. Now it just seems like incompetence and not getting a very easy investment of money.

How has Levy struggled so much to hire the right people to run the football side and then provide them with a setup to thrive? Since Poch we've gone from Jose to Nuno to Conte and the same criticisms about the running of the club persist.

Our net spend and wages have been at a decent level since Conte has taken over. But does anyone really think we're pushing the boat out and genuinely trying to get to the top?

Recent stories suggest Levy and board members are still sticking their fingers into parts of running the football side of things. It seems clear to me that Levy is a control freak and someone needs to get him to simply take a back stage role.

What happened to our £150m loan or whatever it was? Again, I never expected the full amount to go onto the 1st team but our level of investment is decent, not the level required from a team who vastly underspent for a long period.

The most important question for me is, do you think ENIC is really trying to make us a successful football team? I honestly don't. As long as we're doing OK and money is coming in, I think they're happy. The result is stagnation and a stale football club.

Good points and I dont know the answer to most of them. Naming rights, the football setup, and the loan; i can't comment.

I dont think DL is pushing the boat out to get to the top.

I think ENIC is trying to make us a succesful football team. But their bar of success is way lower than ours. I think their aim is just CL, not title challenge. As a result they likely have the belief that 'Kane + Son + average squad' is just about enough to get us there, if we are lucky (like with Conte last season).

I think going forwards its going to get harder and harder. The above held-belief will go as soon as Kane leaves, likely in the near future. The 150m 'war chest' is effectively used to replace Kane; and I think ENIC is being overly optimistic here. I dont think Richy + co is enough, therefore unless something changes I think CL will be out of our reach.

I dont think we are stale as a football club. We just got the new stadium. Who knows what the longer term future holds. The near future is bleak though.

ultimateloner · Jan 6, 2023

dontcallme said:
I think that works if we hire managers that fit the squad. Pep couldn't manage a physical side with no technical ability, just like Allardyce would struggle with a technical side, lacking physicality.

I think Pep can manage a physical side, but I don't think you will see him in a sqaud with just that because physical prowness only gets you so far. In this instance, the squad needs to improve technically because Pep's ceiling is above that.

I think you are correct with Allardyce's ceiling.

I would like to believe Conte has a higher ceiling than what he has shown with us thus far. I think the team's overall ability is suited to counter-attacking football which is why the last 3 managers have only played that. I would like to see a new string to the bow, but at the same time its easy to see why managers dont want to take that risk. Its a safer bet to hope that Kane does something useful with the ball once over 90 mins than to suddenly ask PEH to be a progressive passer of the ball.

IfiHadTheWings · Jan 6, 2023

fishhhandaricecake said:
Daniel is that you? ?

Literally this fits that post better than i have ever seen on this forum.

fishhhandaricecake · Jan 6, 2023

Stuart Leathercock said:
Everyone who talks about the monumental failure that Ndombele has been forgets that the manager who actually wanted him and signed him was sacked before he had a chance to properly accommodate that player he wanted (as well as the two other players he finally got) in the team.

When a club lurches from a manager with a specific style of play to a manager with a completely different style of play it is likely several players will be a bad fit.

If, as a CEO, you finally decide to give a consistently over-performing manager relative to funds provided decent money to spend after years of paucity, then firstly you shouldn't sack that manager so soon after finally giving him some decent money for new players and if you really do feel that you must sack that manager, then you absolutely shouldn't go out and get a manager with a completely different football philosophy.

Exactly this

Stuart Leathercock · Jan 6, 2023

ultimateloner said:
I fundementally disagree about 'buying players for a particular manager'. For me, recruitment and manager/head coach are seperate things.

The manager/coach's job is to get the optimal result with the sqaud at his disposal. He can chip in with his views on the players, but that is all. No one should be bought to accomodate a managers play-style; it should be the other way around. In life generally you change yourself to pursue a result; i dont see why this should differ for a manager.

That is why I don't buy the 'Ndom was bought for Poch and Poch got sacked thats why it didn't work out' line. Ndom has had alot of chances with various managers and nothing worked. We signed the wrong player and paid a price for it, that is all.

Ndombele is an attacking player who is likely to need his team to dominate the ball and territory to be successful. We hired him under a manager that played that way.... Post Poch we have hired 3 managers all of which who the opposite philosophy and want to play deep, counter attacking football.

Ndombele may well have been a monumental failure anyway but by taking a manager with a completely different philosophy to Pochettino we probably guaranteed it.

SpursJord · Jan 6, 2023

I think the mad thing about all this is if you look at the Chelsea sale alone, that in my opinion was so valuable due to on field success. The success grew the clubs fanbase as well as its profile as their infrastructure isn't the best! Now if ENIC were to take the Valuation of what we currently have and spend say 300/400 million properly, begin to be successful with AC then that will again only add to the value because the Brand and fanbase both will grow especially abroad right?

ultimateloner · Jan 6, 2023

Stuart Leathercock said:
Ndombele is an attacking player who is likely to need his team to dominate the ball and territory to be successful. We hired him under a manager that played that way.... Post Poch we have hired 3 managers all of which who the opposite philosophy and want to play deep, counter attacking football.

Ndombele may well have been a monumental failure anyway but by taking a manager with a completely different philosophy to Pochettino we probably guaranteed it.

I think it would have helped him (Ndom) if the situation was diff.
However given his price I don't think thats a good enough reason. He's meant to be our main creator so he's meant to get us to dominate, not an icing-on-the-cake type player who only benefits us in certain situations. That type of 'impact' role belongs to young or up-and-coming-players (e.g Gil) not a 50m purchase.

davidmatzdorf · Jan 6, 2023

dontcallme said:
What happened to the naming rights of the stadium? For a while it seemed that due to the pandemic we might have struggled to get the best possible deal. Now it just seems like incompetence and not getting a very easy investment of money.

I have a different theory for this, founded on no evidence or ITK whatsoever.

I think the urgency has come off the naming rights because ENIC are starting to see the volume, magnitude, profile and success of non-footballing events at THS. Every time we host boxing or NFL or a hip hop gig, the whole world gets "Tottenham Hotspur Stadium" broadcast at it repeatedly by all manner or news and social media.

There comes a point where the promotion of our own brand is worth more than being paid to promote someone else's brand.

If someone throws enough money at ENIC, that may change. But it's my preferred explanation for why naming rights has obviously slipped down the priority list since the stadium was permitted to accommodate crowds again.

14/04/91 · Jan 6, 2023

davidmatzdorf said:
I have a different theory for this, founded on no evidence or ITK whatsoever.

I think the urgency has come off the naming rights because ENIC are starting to see the volume, magnitude, profile and success of non-footballing events at THS. Every time we host boxing or NFL or a hip hop gig, the whole world gets "Tottenham Hotspur Stadium" broadcast at it repeatedly by all manner or news and social media.

There comes a point where the promotion of our own brand is worth more than being paid to promote someone else's brand.

If someone throws enough money at ENIC, that may change. But it's my preferred explanation for why naming rights has obviously slipped down the priority list since the stadium was permitted to accommodate crowds again.

I think you may be onto something there sir. Although not sure I'd class Guns n Roses nor Red Hot Chilli Peppers as 'hip hop'

dontcallme · Jan 6, 2023

davidmatzdorf said:
I have a different theory for this, founded on no evidence or ITK whatsoever.

I think the urgency has come off the naming rights because ENIC are starting to see the volume, magnitude, profile and success of non-footballing events at THS. Every time we host boxing or NFL or a hip hop gig, the whole world gets "Tottenham Hotspur Stadium" broadcast at it repeatedly by all manner or news and social media.

There comes a point where the promotion of our own brand is worth more than being paid to promote someone else's brand.

If someone throws enough money at ENIC, that may change. But it's my preferred explanation for why naming rights has obviously slipped down the priority list since the stadium was permitted to accommodate crowds again.

Very possible. I don’t pretend to know the economics of it all, which is why I framed it as a question.

It would be nice if ENIC would be a bit more open. Fans are becoming disgruntled and they must be aware that some are confused as the naming rights of the stadium.

If they said they want to keep it as club affiliated I’d be ok with it. But without them saying anything it opens up questions.

Stuart Leathercock · Jan 6, 2023

davidmatzdorf said:
I have a different theory for this, founded on no evidence or ITK whatsoever.

I think the urgency has come off the naming rights because ENIC are starting to see the volume, magnitude, profile and success of non-footballing events at THS. Every time we host boxing or NFL or a hip hop gig, the whole world gets "Tottenham Hotspur Stadium" broadcast at it repeatedly by all manner or news and social media.

There comes a point where the promotion of our own brand is worth more than being paid to promote someone else's brand.

If someone throws enough money at ENIC, that may change. But it's my preferred explanation for why naming rights has obviously slipped down the priority list since the stadium was permitted to accommodate crowds again.

I disagree with you here. What does "promotion of our own brand" actually really give us?

14/04/91 · Jan 6, 2023

Stuart Leathercock said:
I disagree with you here. What does "promotion of our own brand" actually really give us?

More potential bidders for the naming rights when we decide the time is right.
Simple really, our brand becomes stronger globally.

Jemster · Jan 6, 2023

We all say it. Off the pitch it’s difficult to argue against what ENIC have transformed at the club. The stadium, training ground, revenues etc have all improved immensely. Asset-wise we’re where we want to be. On the pitch, from a trophy perspective, however, since taking over at Spurs, ENIC have as much success as Blackburn Rovers, Boro, Swansea and Birmingham City but less than Wigan Athletic as they’ve won an FA Cup which is higher in the domestic trophy pecking order. How is this acceptable for a “big 6’ club?

SirNiNyHotspur · Jan 6, 2023

Metalhead said:
Tbf, I'm surprised that so much store is put on what we spend. The biggest bugbear by far is how it's been spent.

Definitely 1st, followed closely by these other considerations:

2nd: When we spend it, ie the big spending relegation threat window, or usually with us when chance of missing out on European football and that extra income source we seem motivated. It very much seems a balancing act with them, which they got badly wrong summer 18. All summed up that they spend only what they feel they have to rather than for any real ambition when we have a chance to actually win something.
3rd: Who's deciding who we spend it on, ie too much interference from Levy, too many restrictions for manager to get right player, ie young, lower wages, square pegs round holes, often ending up with five average right backs but no attacking midfield etc..., also manager changes interferring with any cohesive plan and signings working out etc etc
4th: We were lowest net spenders for pretty much 20 years, small clubs often out spending us all whilst our cash was invested in property with the promise of good times after that, otherwise no fan would be on board if we were to fail 20 years only to still have the same excuses and self imposed restrictions. We are now in a great position to invest what our ambition allows, see swiss ramble report about clubs with spending power, 9th richest club, record income and profits etc, etc...

Not the simplistic argument some like to portray...

davidmatzdorf · Jan 6, 2023

14/04/91 said:
I think you may be onto something there sir. Although not sure I'd class Guns n Roses nor Red Hot Chilli Peppers as 'hip hop'

I'd be more likely to attend a hip hop gig.

davidmatzdorf · Jan 6, 2023

dontcallme said:
If they said they want to keep it as club affiliated I’d be ok with it.

But that would scare off anyone who wanted to offer them serious money for naming rights.

They want to leave it open. If they get a potentially good deal, they'll negotiate. But it's no longer a pressing need, because there are quantifiable and unquantifiable benefits from its current name.

ultimateloner · Jan 6, 2023

Jemster said:
We all say it. Off the pitch it’s difficult to argue against what ENIC have transformed at the club. The stadium, training ground, revenues etc have all improved immensely. Asset-wise we’re where we want to be. On the pitch, from a trophy perspective, however, since taking over at Spurs, ENIC have as much success as Blackburn Rovers, Boro, Swansea and Birmingham City but less than Wigan Athletic as they’ve won an FA Cup which is higher in the domestic trophy pecking order. How is the acceptable for a “big 6’ club?

I think that comparison (that we have had as much success as Blackburn etc and less than Wigan) is plain wrong. We've had consecutive seasons of CL, playing against much better teams at a higher level.

Fans need to stop thinking that winning a domestic cup is more important than consecutive CL. There is a reason why big teams dont care for domestic cups; so if the pros dont use those as benchmarks, neither should we.

davidmatzdorf · Jan 6, 2023

Stuart Leathercock said:
I disagree with you here. What does "promotion of our own brand" actually really give us?

International profile.

Thousands of new international fans.

Our name associated with a magnificent building.

Name recognition. Real Madrid, Man Utd and Liverpool don't benefit by calling the Bernabéu, Old Trafford and Anfield by the name of the club. We do.

It's Advertising 101 stuff.

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