ENIC...

dontcallme · Mar 20, 2021

RosieFTL said:
20 years, getting us to top 6 where we should always have been. However because they charge top ticket prices perhaps on earth when you divide number of trophies by amount spent on tickets they are the worst football owners in the country and perhaps beyond.

The new stadium is built as an entertainment complex and part of their estate portfolio to make money. Their transfer policy is about maximising the assets on the balance sheet. We've lost the chance to sign many players because we won't pay the going rate (see the Atlantic article on Grealish) and keep deadwood for too long because they won't sell below how they value the asset. As they said they could have spent more money on players but chose not to.

The training ground, which I have been to many times, is fabulous but it doesn't lead to success on the pitch. The Spurs Foundation do a wonderful job in the community and is arguably the best part of the club.

In summary it doesn't matter who the next manager is when Mourinho eventually gets sacked. We will never have the top players to win trophies and so will always be also rans.

Worse than the Venky's at Blackburn? Worse than the Blackpool owners whose board was their family, all of whom were on the highest salaries in the country?

Get real.

RosieFTL · Mar 20, 2021

dontcallme said:
Worse than the Venky's at Blackburn? Worse than the Blackpool owners whose board was their family, all of whom were on the highest salaries in the country?

Get real.

I gave a specific metric when saying worst. One specific metric.

dontcallme · Mar 20, 2021

RosieFTL said:
I gave a specific metric when saying worst. One specific metric.

Because of one metric they are the worst?

Maybe you should have written "they are the worst for this one metric" not "because they charge top ticket prices (perhaps the highest on earth) when you divide number of trophies by amount spent on tickets they are the worst football owners in the country and perhaps beyond."

RosieFTL · Mar 20, 2021

dontcallme said:
Because of one metric they are the worst?

Maybe you should have written "they are the worst for this one metric" not "because they charge top ticket prices (perhaps the highest on earth) when you divide number of trophies by amount spent on tickets they are the worst football owners in the country and perhaps beyond."

Fair point I have edited my post.

robin09 · Mar 20, 2021

RosieFTL said:
20 years, getting us to top 6 where we should always have been. However because they charge top ticket prices (perhaps the highest on earth) when you divide number of trophies by amount spent on tickets they are the worst football owners in the country and perhaps beyond.

The new stadium is built as an entertainment complex and part of their estate portfolio to make money. Their transfer policy is about maximising the assets on the balance sheet. We've lost the chance to sign many players because we won't pay the going rate (see the Atlantic article on Grealish) and keep deadwood for too long because they won't sell below how they value the asset. As they said they could have spent more money on players but chose not to.

The training ground, which I have been to many times is fabulous but it doesn't lead to success on the pitch. The Spurs Foundation do a wonderful job in the community and is arguably the best part of the club.

In summary it doesn't matter who the next manager is when Mourinho eventually gets sacked. We will never have the top players to win trophies and so will always be also rans.

Dividing the ticket price by the trophies is certainly an original metric!

Of course a state of the art training ground can lead to success on the pitch. Why else would ENIC fund it? If your answer is, 'because it makes the club more valuable', that's because the training pitch can help performance, which is the only reason a training pitch would have value.

The stadium, once paid off, is ours. If ENIC sell, the stadium is part of the legacy that we can use forever. The value of the stadium is in increasing revenue, (as well as the intangible value of making us look good). Now how ENIC choose to spend that extra revenue (when fans are allowed back in), is up for debate. But it's a very useful investment, as it provides us the opportunity to spend money that we just wouldn't have had available if we stayed at WHL. And that opportunity will still be there, long after these owners leave.

Your pessimism over the future seems to be linked to how many trophies we'll win. Who knows. But being 'also rans' is a huge step up from what we were 15 years ago. We were hoping to get a spot in the Intertoto cup via the fair play award. Now we're much closer to the biggest, richest teams in Europe.
But 99% of all teams will be 'also rans', season in, season out. United, Chelsea and Liverpool probably won't win any more trophies than us this season.

buckley · Mar 20, 2021

I must admit I feel for ENIC here because they paid the top wages they attracted the so called top man but the top man turned out to be a busted flush a yesterday man a dinosaur use any explanation you like but Jose is not and never has been a manager a club with our tradition of trying to play attacking attractive football . Even in his successful years he has had his distractors that have sited his style of play as a put off for many in the game . So I am not and never have been asking for trophies what I have wanted is attacking progressive football a trophy or two would be great but my week to week visits to the stadium to watch spurs are great as long as the football I am watching is not the dross that Jose is serving up .So ENIC should think outside the box for me because most of the big name managers normally have big transfer kitties to work with and they are not going to get that here . So a young bright manager with a style of play that the fans will enjoy watching and who knows maybe we could win a trophy and for me Potter fits the bill his management journey is very similar to Poch and that did not work out too bad .

SirNiNyHotspur · Mar 20, 2021

robin09 said:
What I want to try and get the ENIC out brigade to admit, is that basically all their criticism comes back to 'we should have spent more'. Which is what almost every fanbase in the world would say. Unless they have a billionaire Arab or Russian owner. So that has to be the only realistic option to make those supporters happy.

What a strange thing to write, why is it important for you for us admit what it isn’t? Did you actually read by post because it basically states this that you want to simplify our position into something it isn’t. There are many complex issues that grate with ENIC that aren’t simply solved by throwing more money, it’s why there is so continual debate on them and why so many arguments can be made for and against, but rather than repeat myself just read previous post again... And as you like things simplified for you my view - I want a targeted approach at pivotal times that shows direction and ambition on field.

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Mar 20, 2021

mumfordspur said:
I bet those other mid tablers cant wait to get their white elephants up
I will never forget the last games at the old place and as for settling our home games in that red shithole. Unforgiveable.

WTF?

Do you know what the phrase white elephant actually signifies?

Do you know how much money we will be making from the stadium once fully operational again?

Or are you blaming Levy for building the stadium without the foresight to see that a global pandemic would shut it down for a year or more?

And what was so unforgivable about temporarily playing games at Wembley?

Would you have preferred Milton Keynes?

Or would you have preferred Spurs to leave the WHL site forever?

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Mar 20, 2021

yankspurs said:
I miss the optimism of the Cain Hoy rumors. Everything about this club the last few years has been disastrous. No reason for optimism around the club with this ownership now. They’ve got to go. The club needs a new dawn. ENIC has become a black cloud over it wanting to extract more money, give off the aura they are interested in competing but in actuality are perfectly happy in this endless abyss they drove us into. A manager isnt the main issue with this club. Ownership is. Levy is lost when it comes to the actual game but doesn’t hire football people. The money man HATES the game & refuses to invest in it. It’s a recipe for disaster.

What was there to be especially optimistic about with the Cain Hoy rumours?

It is an American investment fund. In other words, it is ENIC....with a twang to its accent but without any experience of football or any particular love for Spurs.

If Cain Hoy is the alternative then, for all his faults, I'd rather keep Levy, thanks.

shelfboy68 · Mar 20, 2021

RosieFTL said:
20 years, getting us to top 6 where we should always have been. Because they charge top ticket prices (perhaps the highest on earth) when you divide number of trophies by amount spent on tickets they are the worst football owners in the country and perhaps beyond for this one specific metric. Taking ticket money out of the equation they achieved par i.e. they've just done their job which any competent owner could have done.

The new stadium is built as an entertainment complex and part of their estate portfolio to make money. Their transfer policy is about maximising the assets on the balance sheet. We've lost the chance to sign many players because we won't pay the going rate (see the Atlantic article on Grealish) and keep deadwood for too long because they won't sell below how they value the asset. As they said they could have spent more money on players but chose not to.

The training ground, which I have been to many times is fabulous but it doesn't lead to success on the pitch. The Spurs Foundation do a wonderful job in the community and is arguably the best part of the club.

In summary it doesn't matter who the next manager is when Mourinho eventually gets sacked. We will never have the top players to win trophies and so will always be also rans.

The new

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Mar 20, 2021

leelee said:
But the game is about Glory, not the best stadium in Europe. Why invest a billion in the stadium when we have no quality RB, a liability of a CB in Sanchez, and a piss poor LB cover that has zero pace. Then we spend 15m on a kid from Swansea when the manager wanted the 60m CB from Inter.

Penny pinching on the team that will bring the glory while investing big in a stadium that will bring... profit.

Why invest a billion in a new stadium?

So that we can increase revenues by £150m per annum and thus be able to afford £60m centre backs once our £45m centre back has proven to be a liability.

It's not rocket science.

shelfboy68 · Mar 20, 2021

shelfboy68 said:
The new stadium is indeed a multi purpose sports venue there is no doubt about that.
But it also has been designed as "an experience" so that fan's can wine and dine in the concourses both before and after games to create a bigger revenue stream.
This along with fans who are happy to walk out of the club shop with 3 bags of merchandise.
The grealish transfer situation was I grant you an absolute joke when we thought villa were on their knees and so tried to low ball and ended up looking like mugs when suddenly they got new investment levy was the joke of the town for that one.
As for trophy counting we are way past that as a club we simply don't do them and I for one have given up on that score, whilst enic are in charge it's something that we all have to get used to the getting close but ultimate failure being the end game.
It will now take years and several transfer windows to get the club back to where we were a few seasons back, the club had opportunities to have got silverware over the line but failed along with two windows of no investigation has cost this club dearly.

JCRD · Mar 20, 2021

The onky real thing I'll lay any blame for is the Sacking of Poch. He deserved the rebuild and they should have backed him to do that. Jose was never the right person for rebuilding us which we clearly needed. This also includes the one year abstinence from buying anyone.

Danfunkel · Mar 20, 2021

SecretLemonadeDrinker said:
What was there to be especially optimistic about with the Cain Hoy rumours?

It is an American investment fund. In other words, it is ENIC....with a twang to its accent but without any experience of football or any particular love for Spurs.

If Cain Hoy is the alternative then, for all his faults, I'd rather keep Levy, thanks.

Agreed. There was nothing exciting about the CH rumours. You want someone like Bezos, or a billionaire Saudi with limitless pockets to take over and win a title or two, not an investment setup. And those are few and far between.

I think some are just eager for a change, but its no good at all if it's a sideways step. Might as well stick with ENIC.

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Mar 20, 2021

mumfordspur said:
I will never get this until the day they sail off into the sunset.
You are not alone in defending them I used to read I would say 15%/20% support for them elsewehere.
I view them as money grabbing chancers who when they sell they will make a massive profit without achieving f*ck all.
If you want to see the hard facts
1. Look at the PL table
2. Look at the draw for the EL
3. Look at the draw for the FA Cup.

It was Jol's fault, it was AVB's fault, it was Harry's fault, it was Pochettino's fault and now it is Mourinho's fault.

I usually hold back as I see supporters of ENIC as either fools or not the ticket but apologies here I am so angry about the last 2 games that all bets are off.

In mitigation and this is my own personal opinion - my gut tells me that changes are coming.

That's it I don't care if you agree or think "I am going to hunt this chump down for criticising my beloved Enic"

Now let's go for a win at Villa.

That would be because you see achievement solely in terms of winning trophies.

For me, achievement in this context has a far broader definition.

- Transforming Spurs from a club that was a perennial mid table or relegation threatened club into a club that has finished in the top six in 13 of the past 15 seasons.....and top four in 6 of them.

- Getting a club that had fallen light years behind the top clubs (and was falling ever further) into a position where it is now able to compete financially with those top clubs once again.

- Making Spurs a globally recognised and respected football club once again.

- Transforming an academy system that had been woefully neglected for years into one which is among the most productive in England.

- Overseeing through to completion among the best facilities in world football.

- Establishing an outstanding community and charity foundation that is among the very best in England.

And before you say “what about trophies?.....the purpose of a football club is to win trophies!”..........NO. IT. ISN'T.

If it was only about winning trophies, then 95% of clubs might just as well pack up now. Because most of them will never win anything worth winning.

A football club's two primary purposes are to represent a community (both in terms of an area and a fan base) and to entertain. To which end, and to paraphrase Maximus Decimus Meridius:

Have you not been entertained?

For the most part, I certainly have.

RichieS · Mar 20, 2021

SecretLemonadeDrinker said:
What was there to be especially optimistic about with the Cain Hoy rumours?

It is an American investment fund. In other words, it is ENIC....with a twang to its accent but without any experience of football or any particular love for Spurs.

If Cain Hoy is the alternative then, for all his faults, I'd rather keep Levy, thanks.

Danfunkel said:
Agreed. There was nothing exciting about the CH rumours. You want someone like Besos, or a billionaire Saudi with limitless pockets to take over and win a title or two, not an investment setup. And those are few and far between.

"Rock and a hard place" springs to mind. The work ENIC have done leaves only two realistic options imo: Leveraged buyout (probably American) or petrodollars. Neither are desirable imo.

It is, however, time for father to shit or get off the pot. Either tell José how much money there is available and let him use his relationship with Mendes to reshape the squad how he wants, or send him packing and get a proper DoF to take control of everything, Arnesen/Comolli style. They are the only real options at this juncture; imo, of course..

rossdapep · Mar 20, 2021

Exac

wrd said:
This part for me is what I'm after when I say I'd like to see Levy actually have ramifications or take some responsibility for the mistakes of the last few years. They tried to fix it with Jose and that has failed and that was a roll of the dice by Levy, what I'd like to see now is ENIC now change the infrastructure and recruitment because the recruitment is what led us to the Jose mess and I think that centers around creating a structure to achieve similar to what Leicester do.

No see, this is where this conversation gets frustrating for people who criticize the board. If ENIC decided to pump some money into the club, of course I like I'm sure every other Spurs fan would be very happy. If they decide not to however would I'd still rather ENIC stay than have some sportswashing ownership just because it would mean more investment.

However as I mentioned above I'd like to see the likes of Levy and the recruitment team actually take a look at how they do some things, possibly seeing some ramifications to where ENIC decide to invest in a football director to navigate the football side of things meaning those in charge now have less power than they do have or even simply change the approach, so that we can do what the likes of Leicester do which is use scouting as a way to bridge the gap between teams with far more resources than them. People want to boil it down to people simply wanting more money thrown at the problem and that completely misrepresents our grievances.

Exactly.

There's no question ENIC have brought us on leaps and bounds, off the pitch and as an attractive proposition.

However, they have been here for 20 years and we have only one trophy to show and the recruitment has been highly questionable. When you see the likes of Leicester and others around Europe, clubs that have a smaller budget than us, and how they operate, it does put us to shame.

And that's because our chairman is so risk-adverse he's scared to take that extra step on the pitch, which in turn makes ppl question what his/their ambition is. Are they looking to just make the club a big money maker for themselves or are they looking to win trophies?

Every step of the way we have had excuses as to why we are not ready to win trophies. Even in Poch's reign we got the whole spiel about being ahead of the plan, which felt like they were actually saying "Oh shit, this wasn't supposed to happen yet, we can't buy big players!"

We are at the end goal of ENIC now as they have built everything, so we will see. But the criticism is definitely warranted.

shelfboy68 · Mar 20, 2021

[QUOTE="shelfboy68, post: 7256618, member: 15240
[/QUOTE]

The training ground, which I have been to many times is fabulous but it doesn't lead to success on the pitch. The Spurs Foundation do a wonderful job in the community and is arguably the best part of the club.

In summary it doesn't matter who the next manager is when Mourinho eventually gets sacked. We will never have the top players to win trophies and so will always be also rans.

RichieS · Mar 20, 2021

rossdapep said:
Exac
Exactly.

There's no question ENIC have brought us on leaps and bounds, off the pitch and as an attractive proposition.

However, they have been here for 20 years and we have only one trophy to show and the recruitment has been highly questionable. When you see the likes of Leicester and others around Europe, clubs that have a smaller budget than us, and how they operate, it does put us to shame.

And that's because our chairman is so risk-adverse he's scared to take that extra step on the pitch, which in turn makes ppl question what his/their ambition is. Are they looking to just make the club a big money maker for themselves or are they looking to win trophies?

Every step of the way we have had excuses as to why we are not ready to win trophies. Even in Poch's reign we got the whole spiel about being ahead of the plan, which felt like they were actually saying "Oh shit, this wasn't supposed to happen yet, we can't buy big players!"

We are at the end goal of ENIC now as they have built everything, so we will see. But the criticism is definitely warranted.

The criticism is often poorly worded/misdirected though. Leicester are operating in almost the exact way that we did under ENIC for years. It made us better on the pitch just like it has them. Where we've gone wrong in recent years is abandoning that approach, and I think it's due to Levy getting wrapped up in a an almost fan-esque idea that we need to start "behaving like a big club". A lot of the criticism about the football side of things implies (or explicitly states) that things haven't been better on the pitch under ENIC or, in the case of @RosieFTL and one or two others, acknowledges that things have been better but it's just where a club of Spurs' stature should be anyway, implying that the improvement Levy & Co. drove is of no merit.

leelee · Mar 20, 2021

dontcallme said:
So you wanted us to build a smaller stadium because we're not top yet? I feel your logic is deeply lacking here.

If there was no pandemic we'd already be seeing a huge rise in our turnover. Why you wouldn't want that is beyond me. The idea that we would have bought Skriniar if we'd built a smaller stadium just doesn't add up.

Not necessarily smaller, just cheaper. Plenty of 60,000 seaters built for less than a billion.

Even with the increase in turnover, we are yet to see if that money will go on player purchases and wages. Yes, maybe a little more investment but nothing like the kind of revenue the stadium will make us.

My logic isn't lacking at all. The game is about Glory, stadiums win us fuck all.

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