Harry Winks - Leicester City

glospur · Aug 14, 2020

My favourite thing is when someone makes a statistics-based argument to criticise a player, and it's usually Harry Winks, gets proven wrong by the actual facts, and then dismisses them because their eyes tell them different despite the fact that their argument that can be quantifiable and is the complete opposite to what they're saying.

I haven't been around here for ages before the last week or so, but I see nothing's changes when it comes to Harry Winks. Those who actually have more than a facile understanding of football recognise just how good he is and just how important the role is that he plays. He would be incredible under Guardiola, who has complimented him before. If ever there was a perfect player/manager combo it would be those two.

You know what I find most incredible though? On one hand, we have fans pining for a lazy, unfit Ndombele who often looks like he can't be bothered and is unable to reach even the most basic standards of work rate and effort. On the other, we have many of the same fans denigrating and wanting to get rid of a guy who is not only a massive Spurs fan, incredibly hardworking, and who we know will run himself into the ground for the club, but is also great on the ball, selfless and absolute quality to those who know football, including three of the best managers in the world. It's unbecoming. It's pathetic. It's just fucking ludicrous.

McFlash · Aug 14, 2020

brasil_spur said:
Regardless of position we would still need to replace someone in the team with a HG player for this to work. This still creates two problems:

1. Who do we replace Winks with (non HG) that is a notable improvement and how much does that cost?

2. Apart from Aarons at RB who else could we sign to replace one of our non HG players given that CB, GK, AM, WF and ST are basically all sorted?

Ndombele's issues aren't just fitness related though are they? It's been widely reported that there are attitude / entourage issues both at Spurs and with his previous club. I would love for him to get over all of this and become the player that he had the potential to be but it may be that this never happens.

I wouldn't waste your breath, the guy just likes to argue without providing any foundation to his statements.

It's simple, we can't sell Winks unless we upgrade on that position. Plus, there are other players we should be looking at moving on (and improving upon) way before Winks.
If we sell a CM who's been playing nearly every game, it's imperative that we replace him. If not with someone better, at least of the same level.
To think we could go a season relying on Tanguy is ridiculous, Gedson isn't ready, Sissoko isn't good enough and Dele isn't a CM.
We would be left with Højbjerg and Gio and if one of them gets injured... We're fucked.
But at least the Winks haters would be happy.

Some posters on here just don't like the lad and you'll never get a decent discussion out of them, or so it often seems.

bubble07 · Aug 14, 2020

Hercules said:
Respectfully, I just cannot agree with you. Try putting better players around him, and advance him nearer the final third. To me that is his best position. He is far too intelligent and insightful to be playing alongside Sissoko, and any other DM! That is NOT his position!

So you reckon in an advanced position he can get the required number of goals and assists?! That's laughable

cliff jones · Aug 14, 2020

Neon_Knight_ said:
I'm not confused by you having a different opinion, especially as it seems to be shared by many on SC. What I'm confused by is you rating my post 'creative' for referencing stats that were discussed earlier in this thread. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect them to only give ratings that tally up with my post and/or their reply to it - that's just polite. Sorry, but I get fed up with people rudely dumping irrelevant and inappropriate ratings on posts (not just mine), so every now and then I call them out on it. I don't think that's rude or unfair - if you don't want to be challenged on something, as seems to be the case with you, don't post it in an open forum.

Regurgitating facts, as I have done, is the exact opposite of being creative. Forming your own opinion instead of going by the stats, as you have done, requires at least some degree of creativity - even if you are 100% right and the available facts are misleading / unrepresentative. Therefore, it's ironic that you rated my post as creative.

Perhaps you have no more regard for facts than Trump, but:

You stated that Winks isn't good enough at breaking the lines. Official stats rank him as completing the 7th most line breaks with the 2nd highest completion rate - that's a fact, not a "fact".

You stated that Winks isn't good enough at shielding the defence, yet that is clearly now Hojbjerg's role, not his. Again, that's a fact not a "fact".

Therefore, it required some creativity for you to form your opinion (unless you are regurgitating the opinion of others without thinking it through yourself), while my opinion is completely uncreative.

Please feel free to agree or disagree with whatever opinions you choose. However, it would be really great if you could have the courtesy to take the time to consider and comprehend other people's views before rating their posts, instead of giving random ratings to posts that give a well-considered counter-argument to your opinion.

Crikey you’re a bit full of yourself?

I fall into the don’t give a fig about the plethora of stats some people go for- it is creative in my opinion to suggest that all the stats you produce prove anything. I trust my own judgement, thanks.

It’s also creative of you to write like you know whether the Dane will be lying deeper than Winks in next seasons preferred formation, let alone infer that Jose will not deploy any other formations or personnel depending on opponent, competition etc. You know as much as the rest of us.

Lastly I have watched way too much football over the years and recently not to notice that the Dane hasn’t typically played the role you are pigeon holing him for, does he not have someone like Romeu doing that?

Jose expects everyone to defend well, all over the pitch- Winks won’t do that well enough irrespective of who’s around him.

All in my opinion, just like youre entitled to yours.

T’ra.

McFlash · Aug 14, 2020

bubble07 said:
So you reckon in an advanced position he can get the required number of goals and assists?! That's laughable

What is the required number of goals and assists for a No.8?

bubble07 · Aug 14, 2020

McFlash said:
What is the required number of goals and assists for a No.8?

Hard to say but everyone Winks shoots its awful. He also lacks power with his shots

Cochise · Aug 14, 2020

Still comes down to this; we have no-one outside of PEH who can screen the defence alone (and we are assuming he can). In an ideal scenario we would have a squad containing a DM, a CM/DM, one or two CM's, a CM/#10 and a #10. Anything else would be a bonus.

However at this time we have no-one who fits the CM/DM role. We have a plethora of CM's or #8's that all need someone next to them to cover the defence adequately. With regards to balancing the squad; selling a CM and re-using the money to buy the right profile of player makes sense. Now I'd prefer to get Sissoko off our books and I cannot see where Gedson fits with Winks, GLC and likely N'Dombele ahead of him although his athleticism gives him a boost over all of those, however he's still just on loan.

I'd give Winks a year where he can fight GLC and N'Dombele for games at #8 and see how he does. I'm not convinced he will become a better #8, but at least give him a chance. Next summer we may be well and truly done with N'Dombele and Gedson might have gone back to Benfica. No Winks, would leave us woefully understaffed.

Cochise · Aug 14, 2020

bubble07 said:
Hard to say but everyone Winks shoots its awful. He also lacks power with his shots

Not true. He's shot shy but he's whacked a few 30 yarders which have troubled the keeper, even hitting the crossbar with the most recent one (I think in one of the post lockdown matches).

McFlash · Aug 14, 2020

bubble07 said:
Hard to say but everyone Winks shoots its awful. He also lacks power with his shots

But if he's in a 3 with Højbjerg and Gio, with Son, Kane and Lucas, or Bergwijn in front of him, his shooting shouldn't be too much of an issue.
We'd need to be looking at assists, and assisting the assists, which I think he's pretty good at.
Modric used to have all the power of a small child when he used to take a shot (when he was with us) but he was important in so many other ways.

bbunc · Aug 14, 2020

McFlash said:
As @chrissivad has just said, I'd much rather sell Sissoko than Winks.
Winks has 'been there and done that' over the past few years. He's young, experienced and still has the potential to improve.
Dele is better further forward and arguably, his best position is as a second striker. Tanguy, well, we have no idea what's happening there. Whether he wants to be here or will bother to turn up next season.
Gedson, we've hardly seen anything of him.
Sissoko is the wrong side of 30 and although a superb athlete with a massive heart, he's not the best footballer.

You really think we can sell one of the mainstays of our midfield, over the past few years and not replace him?

of course you’d rather sell Sissoko than Winks, but nobody is paying 40M for Sissoko. That’s what brought this whole discussion on - it’s probably not real anyway - but if somebody is really making an insane offer like 40M for Winks you bite their hand off. The problem in our midfield wasn’t bodies - it was that we didn’t have any 6s.

You could make a case we’re still short there and too reliant on PEH. You might rather take 15 of the Winks 40 and go get Kondogbia from the Valencia fire sale. Then we’ve got some really nice balance and depth in that midfield to play 433 and unlock the best out of GLC/Tanguy/etc.

Marty · Aug 14, 2020

Winks has played one game as an 8 in his senior career. One.

And then this happened.

Don't knock the defending, appreciate the run and finish. If he was allowed by Jose to do more of this with Højbjerg as the defensive screen I think we could see a lot more of this. We'd be mental to sell him.

bubble07 · Aug 14, 2020

McFlash said:
But if he's in a 3 with Højbjerg and Gio, with Son, Kane and Lucas, or Bergwijn in front of him, his shooting shouldn't be too much of an issue.
We'd need to be looking at assists, and assisting the assists, which I think he's pretty good at.
Modric used to have all the power of a small child when he used to take a shot (when he was with us) but he was important in so many other ways.

Well maybe its because he is playing deep but I havent seen any indication he can play Eriksen like through balls

McFlash · Aug 14, 2020

bbunc said:
of course you’d rather sell Sissoko than Winks, but nobody is paying 40M for Sissoko. That’s what brought this whole discussion on - it’s probably not real anyway - but if somebody is really making an insane offer like 40M for Winks you bite their hand off. The problem in our midfield wasn’t bodies - it was that we didn’t have any 6s.

You could make a case we’re still short there and too reliant on PEH. You might rather take 15 of the Winks 40 and go get Kondogbia from the Valencia fire sale. Then we’ve got some really nice balance and depth in that midfield to play 433 and unlock the best out of GLC/Tanguy/etc.

It's a game of opinions but I honestly think that £40m is too cheap for Winks.
I honestly believe that, when released from his defensive duties, he's a great little player and I think we'd be mad to sell him as we've just bought a player that will allow him the freedom to express himself.

bubble07 · Aug 14, 2020

If he stays he is essentially competing with Dele and ndmombele for a spot. If he is including ahead of them there will be meltdowns

McFlash · Aug 14, 2020

bubble07 said:
Well maybe its because he is playing deep but I havent seen any indication he can play Eriksen like through balls

Not many players can play balls like Eriksen but its about how he operates within the team. He's not an Eriksen type of player. I've already said enough in this thread what I think his qualities are.
With Højbjerg and Gio, as a 3, I think they have a little bit of everything between them.
An ideal world would be Højbjerg, Gio and Tanguy but until Ndombele decides to pull his finger out, we could do a lot worse than Winks imo.

chrissivad · Aug 14, 2020

bubble07 said:
If he stays he is essentially competing with Dele and ndmombele for a spot. If he is including ahead of them there will be meltdowns

People will always find something for a melt down, Winks (or Dele, Aurier, Dier, Davies, Sanchez, Moura...) playing or not

bubble07 · Aug 14, 2020

I think for all of Dele's limitations his goals are vital. It would be hard to leave him out

Haddock · Aug 14, 2020

I've criticised Winks plenty but I'd still rather not sell him. He's a solid player. Also academy graduate, English national, it's important aspects. If we're making room for more signings in the middle (eg. Raising funds) then surely Sissoko and Lamela are way ahead Winks on the transfer list. IMHO.

PeeEyeEmPee · Aug 14, 2020

glospur said:
My favourite thing is when someone makes a statistics-based argument to criticise a player, and it's usually Harry Winks, gets proven wrong by the actual facts, and then dismisses them because their eyes tell them different despite the fact that their argument that can be quantifiable and is the complete opposite to what they're saying.

I haven't been around here for ages before the last week or so, but I see nothing's changes when it comes to Harry Winks. Those who actually have more than a facile understanding of football recognise just how good he is and just how important the role is that he plays. He would be incredible under Guardiola, who has complimented him before. If ever there was a perfect player/manager combo it would be those two.

You know what I find most incredible though? On one hand, we have fans pining for a lazy, unfit Ndombele who often looks like he can't be bothered and is unable to reach even the most basic standards of work rate and effort. On the other, we have many of the same fans denigrating and wanting to get rid of a guy who is not only a massive Spurs fan, incredibly hardworking, and who we know will run himself into the ground for the club, but is also great on the ball, selfless and absolute quality to those who know football, including three of the best managers in the world. It's unbecoming. It's pathetic. It's just fucking ludicrous.

This is just stupid, I'm sorry.

Tyler24durden · Aug 14, 2020

Winks is a fabulous player and I’m shocked at how few don’t rate him.

he’s been asked to do a job but he’s not a dm and needs better players around him.

He is a metronome, our own little xavi and needs to have his shackles taken off of him.

he’s spurs through and through and it’s pretty abhorrent how nasty some supporters are towards one of our own.

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