Dele Alli at Everton

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

double0 said:
Oh and you think that flick was for Llorente.... wow!

Not just me, his manager at the time and a fellow player(s). Interesting that. But yet the mighty Double0 on SC thinks it was his brilliant incision.

double0 said:
I guess you don't see any good in what he does.

It's not about me my man. It's about Dele. Stay focused.

double0 said:
unfortunately it seems you don't appreciate talent.

I appreciate it when I see it. But again, it's not about me. Didn't I tell you to stay focused?

double0 said:
Dele says hi!

And he'll be saying it from London in the summer and a mid-table team in a few years. And if we don't start 'keeping' (h/t A&C) Dele we will be that mid-table team this season.

Gilzeanking · Jan 9, 2020

Dele CL flick intended for Lloriente @heelspurs ? Nope ,but you're right it wasn't a cool pass to Moura .It was imo an attempt to bring the ball under control for himself which, as often seems to occur , didn't quite come off .

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

Gilzeanking said:
Dele CL flick intended for Lloriente @heelspurs ? Nope ,but you're right it wasn't a cool pass to Moura .It was imo an attempt to bring the ball under control for himself which, as often seems to occur , didn't quite come off .

That's why I posted the article. Folks like to attribute to him many things of which he is not necessarily deserving. Double0 will always believe he meant it but it was good fortune. I'm glad for whatever part he played in it but I don't come away from it attributing any intention to it.

double0 · Jan 9, 2020

heelspurs said:
Not just me, his manager at the time and a fellow player(s). Interesting that. But yet the mighty Double0 on SC thinks it was his brilliant incision.

It's not about me my man. It's about Dele. Stay focused.

I appreciate it when I see it. But again, it's not about me. Didn't I tell you to stay focused?

And he'll be saying it from London in the summer and a mid-table team in a few years. And if we don't start 'keeping' (h/t A&C) Dele we will be that mid-table team this season.

Jog on.

Archibald&Crooks · Jan 9, 2020

heelspurs said:
Solid reply. Just so that we are clear you cannot back your defense of Dele with anything other than easily shot down opinion and emojis, right? Didn't think so. Thanks for taking advantage of the opportunity to straighten us out. The senseless of us often believe that if you cannot support a position with facts and reason then perhaps you've taken a wrong position. Then again we are senseless so who knows.

Actually, I didn't read much of your post. I stopped at your hilarious "I missed nothing spectacularly" and I find it particularly difficult to believe you shot anyone or anything down so again you're making a lot of assumptions.

But thank you for taking the time to try and stir up an argument, if you want to troll me then fill your boots.

double0 · Jan 9, 2020

Dele flick assist for Moura's winning goal.

We have one person say it was for Llorente One person say it was a failed attempt to get the ball under control for himself One person believe it was an improvised piece of skill (obviously baffling to the Steady Eddie's)

I love football.

VanZan · Jan 9, 2020

Archibald&Crooks said:
Actually, I didn't read much of your post. I stopped at your hilarious "I missed nothing spectacularly" and I find it particularly difficult to believe you shot anyone or anything down so again you're making a lot of assumptions.

But thank you for taking the time to try and stir up an argument, if you want to troll me then fill your boots.

Yeah I mean what's that guy doing disagreeing with you? I thought the rule on here was to thank every single post you ever make.

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

Archibald&Crooks said:
Actually, I didn't read much of your post. I stopped at your hilarious "I missed nothing spectacularly" and I find it particularly difficult to believe you shot anyone or anything down so again you're making a lot of assumptions.

But thank you for taking the time to try and stir up an argument, if you want to troll me then fill your boots.

Which is why you are being afforded the opportunity to prevent this by actually putting your arguments (and no just opinions) forward. We note this is another instance where you've neglected doing just that and attempted the cheap dismissal...this time without the bonus emojis.

Do you feel trolled? You must be trolling yourself. I've not put any effort into it. I've just asked honest questions about a player that I believe hurts the team I support.

And no one is stirring up argument but you. You popped in, not for the first time, attempted to take the piss out of @Primativ and implied that anyone that didn't agree with your take on Dele was without sense by saying:

Archibald&Crooks said:
Anyone with an ounce of sense can see this.

This quote function is magical.

And now you're playing the victim because I've asked you to defend the indefensible. Cool, you can't do it. Then perhaps you shouldn't be so dismissive of folks' very valid opinions on a forum where we are ostensibly afforded the privilege to share such opinions. Unless you are implying that there is a groupthink on this matter to which we must all conform.

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

VanZan said:
Yeah I mean what's that guy doing disagreeing with you? I thought the rule on here was to thank every single post you ever make.

I would like to add 'politely' and 'collegially' and in no way argumentative or belittling. Trust me, that's as important as also 'and doing it while being right' in this context.

wrd · Jan 9, 2020

heelspurs said:
So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't arguing to "keep him" imply a player's inclusion? Or are you arguing that we "keep him" but solidly park the heretofore omnipresent player on the bench? Is that your take? How Orwellian of you A&C. I can get behind that one. Folks, we are 'keeping' Dele which apparently means we aren't giving him a squad number unless we have to for contractual purposes. If he must be included in the matchday squad through injury or suspension he will not be afforded boots or shinpads lest the specter of inclusion raise it's ugly head. I can get behind that compromise.

Otherwise this most recent take could be seen as disingenuously serving to deflect focus from my direct appeal to defend your statements of his "better player" qualities for which he should be credited with facts and reason...and not just sternly stated opinion. You can't just say 'he's good and that's it'. Which is essentially what you've done...because it's essentially all you have in defense of this tenuous position. His 'form' has been on display for 5 years but folks have been seduced by stats not his actual play.

And I "spectacularly miss" nothing.

Feel free to make an argument (with facts and reason) for 'keeping' Dele. I would love to hear it...and also pick it apart. @Primativ has solidly argued as to why he feels Dele should be dropped (or more). Sure, he's made hyperbolic statements (that you've belittled him for) but it's hard to be heard in the echo chamber. You could address those points directly (nope, you played the man). No one in support of Dele's inclusion has thus far. That's because they are factually based, damn solid points leading to reasonable conclusions and folks don't like admitting the reality before their very eyes.

#WeAre'keeping'Dele

How does saying keeping him I.E disagreeing with the clamours for him to be out the club equate to him being constantly present in the first team?

The calls for him to be shipped out are over the top in my opinion with the amount of rebuilding we have to do he would be one of the last one the list we need out of the club. I’d be focusing on trying to fill the glaring holes in the squad and then move onto trying to sign players which could lead players like Dele to being part of the rotation as opposed to nailed on starters. There has to be some stops on the way between unstoppable which he seems to be now and out the club.

He is still a young player with obvious talents as I’ve said I see him as somebody who has incredible ability to make runs beyond the striker and finish those chances. As whitedane alluded to 47 of his goals were inside the box. If we find a way to harness that ability as opposed to force him to be something which he isn’t then I think people would look more fondly towards him.

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

wrd said:
How does saying keeping him I.E disagreeing with the clamours for him to be out the club equate to him being constantly present in the first team?

The calls for him to be shipped out are over the top in my opinion with the amount of rebuilding we have to do he would be one of the last one the list we need out of the club. I’d be focusing on trying to fill the glaring holes in the squad and then move onto trying to sign players which could lead players like Dele to being part of the rotation as opposed to nailed on starters. There has to be some stops on the way between unstoppable which he seems to be now and out the club.

He is still a young player with obvious talents as I’ve said I see him as somebody who has incredible ability to make runs beyond the striker and finish those chances. As whitedane alluded to 47 of his goals were inside the box. If we find a way to harness that ability as opposed to force him to be something which he isn’t then I think people would look more fondly towards him.

@Primativ @OPModric @ILS and my previous posts have put forward many arguments and explanations prior to this. You disagree and have no real desire to move from that position. Nothing I say here will convince you otherwise. You have your Dele back, enjoy. The rest of us will dismay at his inclusion because we've seen it all before and expect nothing different.

But I'd like to address a point about team building. If a player is not good enough to start, or shouldn't be constant inclusion etc etc, then you move him on. You purchase players on top of others not below...otherwise you get worse. That's why he should get moved on. Five years on the job and he's no better than the day he came. Once a player becomes a bench player he should be looked at for upgrade not keeping at all costs.

What is this that you are trying to sell here? You want us to believe that your opinion is that Dele should be kept around because he might be useful from the bench? That's the 3rd stage of kubler-ross. Keep going and you will soon get to acceptance of the reality before your eyes. Why not bring in a player that could be useful by actually manning a starting position or two and not just occupy the left halfspace at all costs because he's useless anywhere else? Out with the unitaskers and in with multidimensional actual footballers.

If he's to be a bench warmer that's fine with me. Having another body in there doing actual footballing things may get the rest of you closer to acceptance of what he really is. His biggest quality is that he's English/HG so we have that working for us from a squad perspective.

wrd · Jan 9, 2020

heelspurs said:
@Primativ @OPModric @ILS and my previous posts have put forward many arguments and explanations prior to this. You disagree and have no real desire to move from that position. Nothing I say here will convince you otherwise. You have your Dele back, enjoy. The rest of us will dismay at his inclusion because we've seen it all before and expect nothing different.

But I'd like to address a point about team building. If a player is not good enough to start, or shouldn't be constant inclusion etc etc, then you move him on. You purchase players on top of others not below...otherwise you get worse. That's why he should get moved on. Five years on the job and he's no better than the day he came. Once a player becomes a bench player he should be looked at for upgrade not keeping at all costs.

What is this that you are trying to sell here? You want us to believe that your opinion is that Dele should be kept around because he might be useful from the bench? That's the 3rd stage of kubler-ross. Keep going and you will soon get to acceptance of the reality before your eyes. Why not bring in a player that could be useful by actually manning a starting position or two and not just occupy the left halfspace at all costs because he's useless anywhere else? Out with the unitaskers and in with multidimensional actual footballers.

If he's to be a bench warmer that's fine with me. Having another body in there doing actual footballing things may get the rest of you closer to acceptance of what he really is. His biggest quality is that he's English/HG so we have that working for us from a squad perspective.

Well the reality is if you listed our attacking players im looking at it like compared to dele

Eriksen - wants to leave nothing we can do
Lamela - more footballing ability but seldom fit for a long period
Moura - offers less than Dele and is even more inconsistent
Parrott - youth player
Son - better than dele
Kane - better than dele
Lo Celso - has potential to offer more but can see him playing deeper especially with our lack of midfield options

So being realistic I dont see how the top 3 of that list wouldnt be higher on the list out the door than Dele and if we were to sell those 3 then we would be left incredibly short.

So in an ideal world yeah you want to be brimming with attacking talent which all have well rounded abilities but this is spurs and transfers are few and far between so I dont see this scenario in the very near future where not only do we find a player that is so good he benches Dele but that we also sign so much attacking talent ready to come off the bench that Dele is no longer needed.

Id love us to sign attacking talent to the point where Dele and his skillset just doesnt meet the standard being set by what else we have to offer but I dont see that being the case for an extremely long time so we have to make do with what we have and create the best balance and based on our current squad level Dele has a skillset we can leverage if we use him right. As I say unfortunately on the things that need fixing getting to the point where Dele is no longer needed is low on the list.

double0 · Jan 9, 2020

Dele Alli is not the problem I believe long term he'll tailor his game with more maturity.

The problem is Eriksen Alderweireld Vertonghen Rose Wanyama Aurier (Dier Lloris possibley)

How to get Lamela fit consistently
Ndombele and Lo Celso in the team
Levy to splash the cash.

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

wrd said:
Well the reality is if you listed our attacking players im looking at it like compared to dele

Eriksen - wants to leave nothing we can do
Lamela - more footballing ability but seldom fit for a long period
Moura - offers less than Dele and is even more inconsistent
Parrott - youth player
Son - better than dele
Kane - better than dele
Lo Celso - has potential to offer more but can see him playing deeper especially with our lack of midfield options

So being realistic I dont see how the top 3 of that list wouldnt be higher on the list out the door than Dele and if we were to sell those 3 then we would be left incredibly short.

So in an ideal world yeah you want to be brimming with attacking talent which all have well rounded abilities but this is spurs and transfers are few and far between so I dont see this scenario in the very near future where not only do we find a player that is so good he benches Dele but that we also sign so much attacking talent ready to come off the bench that Dele is no longer needed.

Id love us to sign attacking talent to the point where Dele and his skillset just doesnt meet the standard being set by what else we have to offer but I dont see that being the case for an extremely long time so we have to make do with what we have and create the best balance and based on our current squad level Dele has a skillset we can leverage if we use him right. As I say unfortunately on the things that need fixing getting to the point where Dele is no longer needed is low on the list.

But you are missing the salient point of Dele's inclusion unbalances the current side all for the hope of some BS magical moment that cannot be planned or expected, only hope for. You cannot put him at the 8 because he is awful. You put him at the 10 and he clogs the left halfspace for Sonny and Harry because that is the only place he can play from (other than on the break). If you give him the LAM and push Sonny right then you are moving your most dynamic player to accommodate a lesser player from whom's output one can only hope and not gameplan around.

And no need to show me those players. I was completely on the painful rebuild train. Wouldn't have been sad to see the back of any of them in the attempt to genuinely improve the squad. And sometimes selling the player that brings in the most money allows a team to balance themselves out with additions ie Pool and Coutinho, Chelsea and hazard just ask @Shadydan . but let's be honest ain't nobody paying sh*t for Dele Alli. the desperate lower teams can't afford him financially or tactically and the bigger teams wouldn't want his league 1 technical ability around...just like England and Southgate. We should give a call to West Ham.

You will get there in time on Dele. You are already hedging.

double0 · Jan 9, 2020

heelspurs said:
But you are missing the salient point of Dele's inclusion unbalances the current side all for the hope of some BS magical moment that cannot be planned or expected, only hope for. You cannot put him at the 8 because he is awful. You put him at the 10 and he clogs the left halfspace for Sonny and Harry because that is the only place he can play from (other than on the break). If you give him the LAM and push Sonny right then you are moving your most dynamic player to accommodate a lesser player from whom's output one can only hope and not gameplan around.

And no need to show me those players. I was completely on the painful rebuild train. Wouldn't have been sad to see the back of any of them in the attempt to genuinely improve the squad. And sometimes selling the player that brings in the most money allows a team to balance themselves out with additions ie Pool and Coutinho, Chelsea and hazard just ask @Shadydan . but let's be honest ain't nobody paying sh*t for Dele Alli. the desperate lower teams can't afford him financially or tactically and the bigger teams wouldn't want his league 1 technical ability around...just like England and Southgate. We should give a call to West Ham.

You will get there in time on Dele. You are already hedging.

The big sell as it stands is Son.

If a team offered 80-100 million for Son would you take it?

double0 · Jan 9, 2020

Shoot me down but I think Dele would be a much more difficult player to replace.

ILS · Jan 9, 2020

double0 said:
Shoot me down but I think Dele would be a much more difficult player to replace.

Bang!

heelspurs · Jan 9, 2020

double0 said:
The big sell as it stands is Son.

If a team offered 80-100 million for Son would you take it?

right now, no...unless it was closer to the hundred, then it would be contingent on who I could get in. In the summer, yes. this is all from a footballing perspective and not the Korean market/broader business perspective.

And bringing it back to the topic at hand, I wouldn't want to derail a thread as that could be used against me for all manner of things, if you offered me 40-50M for Dele i would take it and go score 2 (maybe 3) new MF with actual footballing ability. I see this as Dele's greatest potential use. Let's hope his his stats pick up in the short term. Folks only care about those apparently.

McFlash · Jan 9, 2020

Well, I like Dele and don't want him sold.
I also don't want to get into some stupid, long-winded argument about it, in which I ignore everyone else's opinion except my own!
That's not a discussion, it's obtuseness.

Deleted member 29446 · Jan 9, 2020

McFlash said:
Well, I like Dele and don't want him sold.
I also don't want to get into some stupid, long-winded argument about it, in which I ignore everyone else's opinion except my own!
That's not a discussion, it's obtuseness.

Problem is. Those arguing is Deles case has nothing other than stats and moments of brilliance in his defense. Why? Because there’s simply no other good arguments for him.

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