Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

spursfan77 said:

Im sure you’ve said that in the past and JJ has also said previously that things will be different financially now we are in the new stadium. I really don’t think there will be a lack of cash. But in part now, I think that will be driven by champions league qualification (when previously it wasn’t). If and it looks increasingly like it this year, we don’t get CL then it’s a perfect excuse not to spend. When in reality it’s exactly what will be needed.

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Even if we spend a fair bit in the summer I just have no faith anymore that it will lead anywhere. We could have a couple of rebuilding years, get pretty good again and then just when we need to push on we won’t *

*Insert random reasons/excuses here.

Depressingly, the best we can do it seems is glorious failure, and even that is miles away at the moment.

LeParisien said:

I can’t believe that anyone would take a series of uneventful wins against sides that would be mid table in the EPL over some of the most pulsating games we’ve seen and a run to the champions league final !

If the two competitions were equal in stature then I could understand some people swapping the drama and fun for a win. But this is like swapping a World Cup final for winning the nations league.

Ooh baby it’s a wide world

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Why dance about the CL final like we didn’t lose it in 10 seconds? The club has really conditioned our fans to take memories over trophies, it’s sad

dagraham said:

Even if we spend a fair bit in the summer I just have no faith anymore that it will lead anywhere. We could have a couple of rebuilding years, get pretty good again and then just when we need to push on we won’t *

*Insert random reasons/excuses here.

Depressingly, the best we can do it seems is glorious failure, and even that is miles away at the moment.

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Things change in football very very quickly, as we've seen.
One season your hoping for top 4, the next you're in a title race.
Look at Leicester this season and the season they won it.
Liverpool have turned themselves around relatively quickly while Man U have been on the slide year after year.
Get the right manager or a lucky buy such as Alli and Kane coming through the academy and suddenly you're up there.
The truth is if the right investment comes in and its done right then anyone club is capable of winning the league in the next few seasons or at least challenging.
Unfortunately every club is also in 5mins away from the wheels falling off.

Best not to dwell on it lol.
Que sera sera.

He surely has to go now. I get different opinions but defending Poch now is just ignoring obvious facts and kind of ridicoulous.
I do not see one single argument pro Poch. The football romantics, that want their Uncle Poch to turn it around and suddenly play like 16/17 again need to open their eyes.
We as a club should show some fucking ambition and send out a message to everyone that results and performances like this are just not acceptable.
Best infrastructure my arse.

I am pretty sure we would not acquire Jose. He will have high demands in taking control and financially, can't see Levy and him working together although if they would do that it could be a formidable partnership. Mourinho could finally insert some winning mentality to the club. Maybe this is exactly what the players need to regain confidence.
If you argue Mourinho left clubs in a mess have a close look where Poch brought us now.

But even if the choice would not be Mou, there must be loads of others who can get a lot more out of this established group of players. Calling it building a project after buying three new players who barely played (and when they did they were the better ones) is laughable and a very poor excuse. To have an unsettled squad is a house made problem. There was no real reason to outcast Toby or Jan and if anyone is clear that he wants to leave the club then take him out of the whole squad. Unfortunately Poch hasnt brought anyone of our academy close to the first team since Winks. All on the verge suddenly don't get any regular game time and much needed experience and confidence anymore.
Added to that his ingame tactics, substitutes, Press conferences are just a mess nowadays like he is on an internship.

Introducing a new manager now gives us a chance to see what he is capable now with this squad until summer. There is enough quality at least to get Top 6, thats the absolute minimum. Maybe a change helps to fully integrate and committ Toby, Jan or maybe Rose again. If it doesn't work we have the summer to look at bigger names.
What we are doing now is wasting time, digging a bigger hole each weekend and unsettle fans, club and squad.

The Opinionated Lurker said:

Why dance about the CL final like we didn’t lose it in 10 seconds? The club has really conditioned our fans to take memories over trophies, it’s sad

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I don't think the club has conditioned anybody, it's just that despite what Paul Merson would have you believe, not every trophy is created equal. Just the act of winning some random trophy, no matter how insignificant, is not automatically a better achievement. Admittedly the CL final was a massive anti-climax in the end, but our run to get there was some of the most dramatic memories I've ever had as a Spurs fan. And to be honest our team reaching the CL final was a bigger achievement than if we'd won the Carabao Cup, for example. For arguments sake, if we'd beaten a couple of lower league sides and then a couple of mid-table PL teams and then scraped a 1-0 win over City's B team in the final I don't think that would've given me anything like the same high and lows of emotion that we went through during that CL run.

I'm not saying we should be singing and dancing about the final, because ultimately we lost so you have to move on. But I fundamentally disagree with your argument that any trophy is by default a bigger achievement and a better memory than anything else.

'O Zio said:

I don't think the club has conditioned anybody, it's just that despite what Paul Merson would have you believe, not every trophy is created equal. Just the act of winning some random trophy, no matter how insignificant, is not automatically a better achievement. Admittedly the CL final was a massive anti-climax in the end, but our run to get there was some of the most dramatic memories I've ever had as a Spurs fan. And to be honest our team reaching the CL final was a bigger achievement than if we'd won the Carabao Cup, for example. For arguments sake, if we'd beaten a couple of lower league sides and then a couple of mid-table PL teams and then scraped a 1-0 win over City's B team in the final I don't think that would've given me anything like the same high and lows of emotion that we went through during that CL run.

I'm not saying we should be singing and dancing about the final, because ultimately we lost so you have to move on. But I fundamentally disagree with your argument that any trophy is by default a bigger achievement and a better memory than anything else.

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I agree not all trophies are equal. But the Europa League is a European trophy. I’m sorry but you can’t say that a memory is better than that

LeParisien said:

There have been some bad takes in this thread but this takes the crown. 5th and Europa over our season last year.

A thrilling 3-2 aggregate win against Anderlecht instead of the city excitement. 2-1 aggregate win over Celta fucking Vigo instead of MOOOOURRRAAA!!

Final was anti climactic but that cl run gave some of the most exciting games I’ve ever seen.

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Just putting it out there poch had minimum to do with that win he got his tactics wrong first leg which resulted in a defeat and one which should and could have been much worse ! Second leg again got it wrong and played off the park first half ! Second half was more to do with the players knowing it was all or nothing and just going for it which also carried a lot of luck they could have killed us off on the counter many times

Dirtysanchez6 said:

Just putting it out there poch had minimum to do with that win he got his tactics wrong first leg which resulted in a defeat and one which should and could have been much worse ! Second leg again got it wrong and played off the park first half ! Second half was more to do with the players knowing it was all or nothing and just going for it which also carried a lot of luck they could have killed us off on the counter many times

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It’s a CL semifinal - both teams could win. There are easy shoulda woulda couldas that all losing teams could come up with.

Im not saying Poch is amazing tactically. I’m saying he’s brought more joy and pride for Tottenham than Mourinho did for United.

The Opinionated Lurker said:

I agree not all trophies are equal. But the Europa League is a European trophy. I’m sorry but you can’t say that a memory is better than that

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Yeah I'd take EL and 5th definitely, but partly because it still gets us CL qualification so wouldn't set us back the next season. But there are a worrying number of our fans who would seemingly be more than happy to win the Carabao Cup even if we finished 10th just because "It's a trophy". That's what I don't agree with. There are plenty of memories that are better than going through the motions and winning the Carabao Cup.

LeParisien said:

It’s a CL semifinal - both teams could win. There are easy shoulda woulda couldas that all losing teams could come up with.

Im not saying Poch is amazing tactically. I’m saying he’s brought more joy and pride for Tottenham than Mourinho did for United.

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He hasn’t though Jose win them two trophies which brings a lot more pride and joy than anything poch has brought us

LeParisien said:

It’s a CL semifinal - both teams could win. There are easy shoulda woulda couldas that all losing teams could come up with.

Im not saying Poch is amazing tactically. I’m saying he’s brought more joy and pride for Tottenham than Mourinho did for United.

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And if Jose had won the trophies he did for them, but for us, then that would make him the most successful manager we have had for decades.

Says more about the expectations at Utd.

In my opinion our main problem was not moving players on in the summer that wanted out because Levy wanted too much money for them, they are now hanging around the club like a bad smell stinking the training ground and dressing room out.

LeParisien said:

There have been some bad takes in this thread but this takes the crown. 5th and Europa over our season last year.

A thrilling 3-2 aggregate win against Anderlecht instead of the city excitement. 2-1 aggregate win over Celta fucking Vigo instead of MOOOOURRRAAA!!

Final was anti climactic but that cl run gave some of the most exciting games I’ve ever seen.

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No, the question was about the end result of the season, not the journey there.

Dirtysanchez6 said:

He hasn’t though Jose win them two trophies which brings a lot more pride and joy than anything poch has brought us

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He also finished 2nd in the league with them which is equal to Poch’s best League finish as manager for us. I think this squad would be perfect for Jose to work with.

Hakkz said:

And if Jose had won the trophies he did for them, but for us, then that would make him the most successful manager we have had for decades.

Says more about the expectations at Utd.

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FFS, Jose had one of the biggest budgets in world football at United. Last summer was them first one in years that Poch has not had to balance the books in net spend. It’s like comparing night and day.

Dirtysanchez6 said:

He hasn’t though Jose win them two trophies which brings a lot more pride and joy than anything poch has brought us

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Hakkz said:

And if Jose had won the trophies he did for them, but for us, then that would make him the most successful manager we have had for decades.

Says more about the expectations at Utd.

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For a team that is trying to play regular CL football, playing even one match in the EL is a disappointment.

I know you see winning trophies as glorious but that’s not true for the EL unless you sadly find yourself in that tournament, playing midtable EPL teams on a Thursday night. Its far better to be getting to the knockout stages of the CL, playing the worlds most prestigious tournament. That’s the reality.

If you’re talking about club mentalities then you don’t find Bayern or Juve fans saying - god I wish I could be winning the EL rather than getting to these Quarters, Semis and Finals.

Of course there’s a big difference - they’re cleaning up in their (weaker) domestic leagues. And I would LOVE us to seriously challenge for the EPL. But I dont see anyone seriously suggest Mourinho would have us challenging for the league.

McFlash said:

No, the question was about the end result of the season, not the journey there.

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No the question was
“Would you take season with Mou, ended at 5th and won Europa League or season with Poch, ended at 4th and CL Final with matches against Ajax and City?”

I wouldn’t take a season with Mou unless i thought it might end in a serious bit of silverware. I don’t care about second tier competitions. Winning second tier competitions is not ambition - it’s a byproduct of aiming for success in the top comps.

Dirtysanchez6 said:

He hasn’t though Jose win them two trophies which brings a lot more pride and joy than anything poch has brought us

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I'll ask you a similar question then....

Juande Ramos poster up on your wall?

LeParisien said:

There have been some bad takes in this thread but this takes the crown. 5th and Europa over our season last year.

A thrilling 3-2 aggregate win against Anderlecht instead of the city excitement. 2-1 aggregate win over Celta fucking Vigo instead of MOOOOURRRAAA!!

Final was anti climactic but that cl run gave some of the most exciting games I’ve ever seen.

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Very easy to dismiss things which never happened when benchmarked alongside real memories

freeeki said:

Very easy to dismiss things which never happened when benchmarked alongside real memories

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The irony is people see winning a second tier competition as triumphant and glorious but doing well in a top tier competiton as being empty and hollow.

As I’ve repeated - playing a single game in the EL should be seen as a failure for a club of our ambition. One game = failure.

And we are likely to have to play lots next season and that will be because we have failed this season.

It’s better to finish 4th or 5th and win the Europa and/or a domestic trophy than it is to finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th, always be 10-20 pts behind the leader and not win anything. Winners are better than nearly men, winners keep their best players, nearly men lose their best players as they want to win things.