Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Gassin's finest · Oct 8, 2019

Amo said:
I now definitely want him out.

Not because of results, but because he's sucking Qatari dick for money.

I can't find myself disagreeing with this. Its something that outrages me, and I'd be hypocritical if I tried to make excuses for it.

Its always disappointing when someone you admire does something like this without appreciating the larger picture. I'm sure Pochettino isn't happily wallowing in the deaths of builders, modern slavery, and the like. But you do hope that people try to educate themselves better with such things.

Amo · Oct 8, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
I can't find myself disagreeing with this. Its something that outrages me, and I'd be hypocritical if I tried to make excuses for it.

Its always disappointing when someone you admire does something like this without appreciating the larger picture. I'm sure Pochettino isn't happily wallowing in the deaths of builders, modern slavery, and the like. But you do hope that people try to educate themselves better with such things.

It's very optimistic of you to assume he isn't aware of these issues.

Gassin's finest · Oct 8, 2019

Amo said:
It's very optimistic of you to assume he isn't aware of these issues.

Even his not being aware of them would be disappointing I suppose.

ultimateloner · Oct 8, 2019

Primativ said:
How on earth does those two results add perspective? United are a shit show and OGS is a shit manager, I knew this a year ago and did most people, what has that to do with Poch and Spurs taking 2 points from 30 on the road?

City have lost two games after winning the PL twice in a row and have been devastated at CB by injuries. Again what relevance has that go to do with Spurs losing 17 games this year, more than any other PL side?

I’m not sure how you can take a considered view after the week we’ve just had. I’d call it more deluded.

If you couldn’t see a team that had stopped playing for the manager on Saturday, what exactly are you seeing?

Nothing would please me more than Poch turning this around, us playing brilliant attacking football and winning loads of trophies but it is NOT happening under this man. Anyone advocating we start a new 5 year project and make this a transitional season just to back Poch is making a monumental error.

Poch took over the best Spurs squad in 20 years. Took us from 5th best team in the league to around the 2nd once and then 3rd and 4th places. Coincided with the England captain 30 goal a season striker coming from our youth system. In all of that time, he has moved us up about one or two places in the league whilst continually failing to win a single trophy.

We had the best CB and fullback partnership in the league for three years. It won us nothing. Kane scored 30 goals in a season and we still won nothing. This at a time when every single member of the top 6 went through a huge period of transition and we had one of the most stable sides in the league, we still won nothing. Even Leicester were able to profit from this unique period of transition by winning the PL but yet again we failed to win. Since Poch has been in charge every single club in the top 6 has won a trophy apart from Spurs.

Poch is not the messiah. He’s profited as much from the strong squad spurs have had as anyone could. He did a good job at Spurs managing a very strong squad, but it wasn’t good enough because we won no trophies. Those good times are well over now though and the players want a new face, voice, methods and challenges. We’re a team in disarray and this has been happening since August 2018 yet Poch has been unable to reverse the decline for over a year now. So why do people think he’s going to turn it around in the next few weeks? Let alone give him a season of transition.

I am in the 'Poch in' camp but this is very well reasoned.

Finchyid · Oct 9, 2019

Said go as he is not going to turn this around if he continues to select the ajax boys

slartibartfast · Oct 9, 2019

Primativ said:
How on earth does those two results add perspective? United are a shit show and OGS is a shit manager, I knew this a year ago and did most people, what has that to do with Poch and Spurs taking 2 points from 30 on the road?

City have lost two games after winning the PL twice in a row and have been devastated at CB by injuries. Again what relevance has that go to do with Spurs losing 17 games this year, more than any other PL side?

I’m not sure how you can take a considered view after the week we’ve just had. I’d call it more deluded.

If you couldn’t see a team that had stopped playing for the manager on Saturday, what exactly are you seeing?

Nothing would please me more than Poch turning this around, us playing brilliant attacking football and winning loads of trophies but it is NOT happening under this man. Anyone advocating we start a new 5 year project and make this a transitional season just to back Poch is making a monumental error.

Poch took over the best Spurs squad in 20 years. Took us from 5th best team in the league to around the 2nd once and then 3rd and 4th places. Coincided with the England captain 30 goal a season striker coming from our youth system. In all of that time, he has moved us up about one or two places in the league whilst continually failing to win a single trophy.

We had the best CB and fullback partnership in the league for three years. It won us nothing. Kane scored 30 goals in a season and we still won nothing. This at a time when every single member of the top 6 went through a huge period of transition and we had one of the most stable sides in the league, we still won nothing. Even Leicester were able to profit from this unique period of transition by winning the PL but yet again we failed to win. Since Poch has been in charge every single club in the top 6 has won a trophy apart from Spurs.

Poch is not the messiah. He’s profited as much from the strong squad spurs have had as anyone could. He did a good job at Spurs managing a very strong squad, but it wasn’t good enough because we won no trophies. Those good times are well over now though and the players want a new face, voice, methods and challenges. We’re a team in disarray and this has been happening since August 2018 yet Poch has been unable to reverse the decline for over a year now. So why do people think he’s going to turn it around in the next few weeks? Let alone give him a season of transition.

Well, when you put it like that lol.

spursfan77 · Oct 9, 2019

'O Zio said:
This season is already a write-off in terms of challenging for stuff. We just need to make sure we get CL qualification again next season now.

I wouldn't write us off too soon. Football is a strange sport.

WiganSpur · Oct 9, 2019

I might change my mind if he sticks to his original principles and banishes the troublemakers completely from the squad, blooding the youngsters and the new players with a look to competing next season. Even so, I still need to see evidence that the coached approach is still there. That we are defending aggressively, that we are playing good one touch football and that energy levels are high.

JimmyG2 · Oct 9, 2019

spursfan77 said:
I wouldn't write us off too soon. Football is a strange sport.

I think you mean 'a funny old game'.

spursfan77 · Oct 9, 2019

JimmyG2 said:
I think you mean 'a funny old game'.

Yes. Can't believe I missed the chance to write that!

Marty · Oct 9, 2019

I can't shake the feeling that what we're seeing is the final season of Poch. I compared it to Mourinho's last months at first Chelsea and then United a few days ago, but the comparison that really resonates is Klopp at Dortmund.

Klopp's project there had simply run its course, the players were no longer fit enough to handle the rigourous training regime because they'd done it for so long it just knackered them. The squad was ravaged with injuries and hadn't ideally replaced the players who had left (this is the big departure from Poch's story), and by the time he announced he was leaving in April it came as no surprise to anyone, he left after a poor season but the memories of the good times far outweigh the terrible final season.

I really want Poch to turn it around, I really want him to oversee the generational change after Toby, Jan, Rose, Eriksen, maybe Lloris all leave. But if the players who are still in or younger than their theoretical prime aren't responding to his methods any more (Son, Kane, Dele, Dier), it's probably time to go. But I'm convinced he won't be sacked unless we're in the relegation zone, and if he goes this summer he will go out on his own terms.

Gassin's finest · Oct 9, 2019

rez9000 · Oct 9, 2019

Marty said:
I can't shake the feeling that what we're seeing is the final season of Poch. I compared it to Mourinho's last months at first Chelsea and then United a few days ago, but the comparison that really resonates is Klopp at Dortmund.

Klopp's project there had simply run its course, the players were no longer fit enough to handle the rigourous training regime because they'd done it for so long it just knackered them. The squad was ravaged with injuries and hadn't ideally replaced the players who had left (this is the big departure from Poch's story), and by the time he announced he was leaving in April it came as no surprise to anyone, he left after a poor season but the memories of the good times far outweigh the terrible final season.

I really want Poch to turn it around, I really want him to oversee the generational change after Toby, Jan, Rose, Eriksen, maybe Lloris all leave. But if the players who are still in or younger than their theoretical prime aren't responding to his methods any more (Son, Kane, Dele, Dier), it's probably time to go. But I'm convinced he won't be sacked unless we're in the relegation zone, and if he goes this summer he will go out on his own terms.

This raises a very interesting point, Marty, so thank you for highlighting it. I think it's one that is at the heart of everything - can Poch turn things around. Just to state, right now I'm ignoring the Qatari thing, but I should also say I was deeply disturbed by it, but I'm putting a pin in it just for a hypothetical discussion:

So we have Klopp who went through a similar thing at Dortmund to what Pochettino is going through now:

Question: is the same thing likely to happen to Klopp at Liverpool?

"What's this got to do with Spurs???", I hear everyone scream. Fair question:

In my mind, the relevance is this: if the possibility of Klopp going through at Liverpool what he went through at Dortmund does exist, how would he (Klopp) avoid it happening again? If that question can be answered, analysis of the answer might shed some light on how Pochettino could solve the issue he currently faces.

That's the question that occurs from Marty's point. Hopefully someone smarter than me can have a go at unpicking it...

rossdapep · Oct 9, 2019

rez9000 said:
This raises a very interesting point, Marty, so thank you for highlighting it. I think it's one that is at the heart of everything - can Poch turn things around. Just to state, right now I'm ignoring the Qatari thing, but I should also say I was deeply disturbed by it, but I'm putting a pin in it just for a hypothetical discussion:

So we have Klopp who went through a similar thing at Dortmund to what Pochettino is going through now:

Question: is the same thing likely to happen to Klopp at Liverpool?

"What's this got to do with Spurs???", I hear everyone scream. Fair question:

In my mind, the relevance is this: if the possibility of Klopp going through at Liverpool what he went through at Dortmund does exist, how would he (Klopp) avoid it happening again? If that question can be answered, analysis of the answer might shed some light on how Pochettino could solve the issue he currently faces.

That's the question that occurs from Marty's point. Hopefully someone smarter than me can have a go at unpicking it...

I think Klopp has already found some way around this.

Firstly, he has adopted a midblock and prefers his team to now press in intervals. This takes some of the strain off although it can lead to more lapses in concentration as intensity drops.

So, secondly, he brought in Van Dijk and Allison to make them more resolute but also better In transitions. Plus they concentrate better when they are using the intense approach.

Thirdly, he bought Keita and Fabinho even though they have Milner, Henderson, Ox and Wijnaldum. Thus allowing for steady but consistent rotation in the engine room.

I think his next issue will be keeping his full backs energetic. And signing another attacking option.

So, Poch needs to sign a dm, better full backs and a cb to fit with this.

Hakkz · Oct 9, 2019

JimmyG2 said:
I think you mean 'a funny old game'.

'A game of two halves'

Ronwol196061 · Oct 9, 2019

rossdapep said:
I think Klopp has already found some way around this.

Firstly, he has adopted a midblock and prefers his team to now press in intervals. This takes some of the strain off although it can lead to more lapses in concentration as intensity drops.

So, secondly, he brought in Van Dijk and Allison to make them more resolute but also better In transitions. Plus they concentrate better when they are using the intense approach.

Thirdly, he bought Keita and Fabinho even though they have Milner, Henderson, Ox and Wijnaldum. Thus allowing for steady but consistent rotation in the engine room.

I think his next issue will be keeping his full backs energetic. And signing another attacking option.

So, Poch needs to sign a dm, better full backs and a cb to fit with this.

I'm mostly concerned with our system changing and how and if Poch can figure it out.
To push forward NDombele is a positive thing...he can give us incisive passes forward and quick
But we have to be prepared down the middle defensively as Winks is not strong enough on his own.
I think Dier should play behind Winks with NDombele more forward (even in Eriksens spot)
But how does that bode for our shape generally etc
I'm not sure.
We need to get forward quickly and be more solid through midfield defensively I think.
Wingplay is good but I'm not sure if we are capable right now with that,maybe Sessegnon would make a big difference that way.Meanwhile Ndombele at least for 60 mins can get passes through to the front.

rossdapep · Oct 9, 2019

Ronwol196061 said:
I'm mostly concerned with our system changing and how and if Poch can figure it out.
To push forward NDombele is a positive thing...he can give us incisive passes forward and quick
But we have to be prepared down the middle defensively as Winks is not strong enough on his own.
I think Dier should play behind Winks with NDombele more forward (even in Eriksens spot)
But how does that bode for our shape generally etc
I'm not sure.
We need to get forward quickly and be more solid through midfield defensively I think.
Wingplay is good but I'm not sure if we are capable right now with that,maybe Sessegnon would make a big difference that way.Meanwhile Ndombele at least for 60 mins can get passes through to the front.

Yeah it's my concern. Winks at the base is no good as he can't cover the defensive spaces.

But maybe if our full backs were better he could make something of it. Although it's incredibly tough to see.

Ndombele is key and I think Poch needs to really evaluate how he can maximise him. I'd like to see a midfield set up that is defensively strong, at least to arrest the slide.

dace · Oct 10, 2019

Who is to say that Poch gets the season from Levy and then decides to up sticks and move anyway.
Some may want him to get time but he may well follow all those not so cryptic comments about moving to other clubs.

Shadydan · Oct 10, 2019

dace said:
Who is to say that Poch gets the season from Levy and then decides to up sticks and move anyway.
Some may want him to get time but he may well follow all those not so cryptic comments about moving to other clubs.

If at any point he leaves then the end of the season is the best time, not now though,

rez9000 · Oct 10, 2019

dace said:
Who is to say that Poch gets the season from Levy and then decides to up sticks and move anyway.
Some may want him to get time but he may well follow all those not so cryptic comments about moving to other clubs.

But equally, who's to say that Poch gets the season from Levy and then decides not to up sticks and move anyway...?

A decision can't be taken on what he may do, you can only take a decision based on what he says he'll do.

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