We will have a good week next week starting with Southampton on Saturday.
Bayern gonna get it
Brighton gonna feel the wrath
Three wins
The Mauricio Pochettino thread
- Thread starter TaoistMonkey
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We will have a good week next week starting with Southampton on Saturday.
Bayern gonna get it
Brighton gonna feel the wrath
Three wins
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
- 22,228
- 80,058
But is that cause of him or just cause the players have got tired at the club?
The problem I think we have is that Poch started pushing players out the door cause they were at a certain age, yet we haven't got rid of them.
This is bad because, firstly, the player doesn't want to give 100% for you anymore. Secondly, others pick up on it and think "Why are we selling Rose? He's our best LB!" or "You were going to sell him but now you're giving him more game time than me?!"
There are so many contradictions in this team at the moment. There's confusion, there's negative vibes. Our problems seem to have snowballed from almost nowhere.
It probably stems from last summer when we needed fresh blood but didn't get, also the issues with Toby, Rose and Eriksen which have rumbled on for over a year (two in Rose' s case). Now, some of this is Levy and the club's fault, not shifting players on etc but at the same time Poch does seem to have an issue with older heads. Successful clubs will ensure the experienced leaders stay and drive the team on.
Lighty64
I believe
- Aug 24, 2010
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On the back of that video last night as well with that daft bollocks answer about Madrid and the team turn this performance in ...
Yeah, it's a good look.
where is the video of that, all I've seen is a twitter clip from someone putting it in English
Spurs_S.A.
Well-Known Member
- Apr 29, 2018
- 164
- 271
He is the best when he adds some trophies in the cabinet. In a few years there will be another manager that will come along add those trophies and you will soon disregard Poch as being the best.
WiganSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 16,026
- 32,758
In January if he's still here it's still gonna be either sack the manager or clear out 5-10 players from DL's point of view. We can't carry on as we are.
Even if it's the fault of players it's not realistic to recycle that many players in one window. The only out I can see is a change in manager if he can't get them on side. Then hope a new manager can at least galvanise one or two of the unmotivated leaving us with less of a clear out job to do.
dagraham
Well-Known Member
- Sep 20, 2005
- 19,146
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Not sure about that!
mpickard2087
Patient Zero
- Jun 13, 2008
- 21,894
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(I put this in the Match Thread, but it's probably better here)
A few weeks ago I said the worst thing you could level at Poch is that we just looked a badly coached outfit at present. I've never been shy of saying what I do and don't like, going into more detail/obsession than 99.9% of posters and picking things over to the nth degree, and some things we are seeing have been weaknesses that were there all along, but you could never question that we were fit, ran hard, very disciplined and the best Spurs side in 30 years in terms of application and looking well coached. If that's gone, there are problems.
And since then, its just got worse. Take tonight out of the equation, because it's virtually all games recently and goes much deeper than that. Whoever is selected - starter or reserve, superstar or kid trying to make his way in the game - it looks shambolic. One paced, ultra low tempo, little movement (often standing still), little idea, struggling to complete basic 5 yard passes, no press, wide open, defensively shaky, etc. If teams sit behind the ball we're fucked.
Individuals have to be held to account as well, but when we're just stumbling around the pitch (match after match) aimlessly and with no idea, just playing ultra safely and so hesitantly, this is a collective issue and questions have to be asked as to how this is happening and why the team is going out and playing with this mindset and approach - it has to be something they're feeding off, whether direct instruction or otherwise. But there is so much in the detail you can pick apart that shows substandard areas of our game.
Combination play for instance, how often tonight did we see Parrott, Alli, Moura all dropping off towards the ball at the same time, no harmony or trying to work off what the other(s) were doing. I saw at least a dozen times when a fullback had the ball, centre mid made a channel run (but was tracked) opening space inside for an option, when the man with the ball then is looking for said option no Spurs player has reacted and made any movement. Or late on, when Davies time and again failed to recognise that Son had moved inside and so he needed to pull wider and be the option but didn't, and so the ball couldn't be moved left and we got stuck. And so on, with literally 100's of different mechanics of the game that I could highlight, and that go together to help you play as a cohesive unit and achieve better football.
This also goes for our pressing, or lack of it. Mostly players just ambling about making half-hearted or token efforts. Sometimes a random player just chases around and gets taken out of the game as no else follows them. Very little in the way of a collective and disciplined effort. And that just leads to us being open, and then the players further back being put under a lot of pressure and/or overloaded.
Yes there are quite a lot of individuals currently who need to be showing a lot more and deserve criticism, but the manager is selecting them and when the vast majority of the squad are underperforming then the team itself has to come under the spotlight. Poch is the head honcho and the buck stops with him, he's simply got to get a grip quickly and find the solutions. There are big problems but to try and simplify it he's got to get 11 hungry players out on the pitch who want to work hard, defensively get some sort of approach in order -whether that be high press, or sitting behind the ball - carried out in disciplined fashion, and with the ball we've got to see far more urgency and evolve our attacking structures. You're not going to see 100% improvement overnight, but in the coming months we need to start making progress and ride out this real rough patch and bad run of results.
Personally though I think he deserves more time and getting rid at this point would be massively kneejerk. It's entirely possible he might not be able to fix it and at some point a change has to be made, but that's not yet. I'd even be prepared to put up with a scenario like a few more months of struggle, even if it meant this season became a write off, but then progress, fixing certain things, and a strong end to the season and ready to go onwards. He deserves a proper chance to see us out of this bad patch and revitalise the football team.
I'll engage in the hypothetical 'who next' chat though... I see a lot of calls for Mourinho as he's a winner, not for me. If some fans just want a win/trophy be all and end all, fair enough but that's not for me. I cant separate the process from the end result. For me I watch football for the game, the 90 minutes, the tactics and performances and everything in between that interests me, and to be entertained by it to my tastes and standards - I like high line, high press, possession-based technical attacking football. Of course I'd like Spurs to win every match and trophy too, but style of play and what I'm going to be watching week in week out, for me, comes first and I don't think we should just lurch to someone as they're the easily available 'winning' option.
But as I said, there are big concerns and massive improvements needed, but for now Poch has got to be given the opportunity to try and fix it.
A few weeks ago I said the worst thing you could level at Poch is that we just looked a badly coached outfit at present. I've never been shy of saying what I do and don't like, going into more detail/obsession than 99.9% of posters and picking things over to the nth degree, and some things we are seeing have been weaknesses that were there all along, but you could never question that we were fit, ran hard, very disciplined and the best Spurs side in 30 years in terms of application and looking well coached. If that's gone, there are problems.
And since then, its just got worse. Take tonight out of the equation, because it's virtually all games recently and goes much deeper than that. Whoever is selected - starter or reserve, superstar or kid trying to make his way in the game - it looks shambolic. One paced, ultra low tempo, little movement (often standing still), little idea, struggling to complete basic 5 yard passes, no press, wide open, defensively shaky, etc. If teams sit behind the ball we're fucked.
Individuals have to be held to account as well, but when we're just stumbling around the pitch (match after match) aimlessly and with no idea, just playing ultra safely and so hesitantly, this is a collective issue and questions have to be asked as to how this is happening and why the team is going out and playing with this mindset and approach - it has to be something they're feeding off, whether direct instruction or otherwise. But there is so much in the detail you can pick apart that shows substandard areas of our game.
Combination play for instance, how often tonight did we see Parrott, Alli, Moura all dropping off towards the ball at the same time, no harmony or trying to work off what the other(s) were doing. I saw at least a dozen times when a fullback had the ball, centre mid made a channel run (but was tracked) opening space inside for an option, when the man with the ball then is looking for said option no Spurs player has reacted and made any movement. Or late on, when Davies time and again failed to recognise that Son had moved inside and so he needed to pull wider and be the option but didn't, and so the ball couldn't be moved left and we got stuck. And so on, with literally 100's of different mechanics of the game that I could highlight, and that go together to help you play as a cohesive unit and achieve better football.
This also goes for our pressing, or lack of it. Mostly players just ambling about making half-hearted or token efforts. Sometimes a random player just chases around and gets taken out of the game as no else follows them. Very little in the way of a collective and disciplined effort. And that just leads to us being open, and then the players further back being put under a lot of pressure and/or overloaded.
Yes there are quite a lot of individuals currently who need to be showing a lot more and deserve criticism, but the manager is selecting them and when the vast majority of the squad are underperforming then the team itself has to come under the spotlight. Poch is the head honcho and the buck stops with him, he's simply got to get a grip quickly and find the solutions. There are big problems but to try and simplify it he's got to get 11 hungry players out on the pitch who want to work hard, defensively get some sort of approach in order -whether that be high press, or sitting behind the ball - carried out in disciplined fashion, and with the ball we've got to see far more urgency and evolve our attacking structures. You're not going to see 100% improvement overnight, but in the coming months we need to start making progress and ride out this real rough patch and bad run of results.
Personally though I think he deserves more time and getting rid at this point would be massively kneejerk. It's entirely possible he might not be able to fix it and at some point a change has to be made, but that's not yet. I'd even be prepared to put up with a scenario like a few more months of struggle, even if it meant this season became a write off, but then progress, fixing certain things, and a strong end to the season and ready to go onwards. He deserves a proper chance to see us out of this bad patch and revitalise the football team.
I'll engage in the hypothetical 'who next' chat though... I see a lot of calls for Mourinho as he's a winner, not for me. If some fans just want a win/trophy be all and end all, fair enough but that's not for me. I cant separate the process from the end result. For me I watch football for the game, the 90 minutes, the tactics and performances and everything in between that interests me, and to be entertained by it to my tastes and standards - I like high line, high press, possession-based technical attacking football. Of course I'd like Spurs to win every match and trophy too, but style of play and what I'm going to be watching week in week out, for me, comes first and I don't think we should just lurch to someone as they're the easily available 'winning' option.
But as I said, there are big concerns and massive improvements needed, but for now Poch has got to be given the opportunity to try and fix it.
felmani26
SC Supporter
- Jan 1, 2008
- 24,598
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In isolation, these Cup upsets happen to the best of them - especially with the amount of change to personnel away to a lower league side eager to press like fuck, under the floodlights etc.
However, the decline has been evident for quite a while with the glaring omission with each passing match how utterly devoid we are of Poch's press philosophy with no sign of revival.
2 games against Southampton and Brighton represent a great opportunity to take 6 points with Bayern sandwiched in between. If we can look to at least take 7 points from those then we can regroup after the internationals and slowly but surely look to re-establish a cohesive team ethos but I fear if Poch fails to get a tune out of this group then the tide will undoubtedly turn.
However, the decline has been evident for quite a while with the glaring omission with each passing match how utterly devoid we are of Poch's press philosophy with no sign of revival.
2 games against Southampton and Brighton represent a great opportunity to take 6 points with Bayern sandwiched in between. If we can look to at least take 7 points from those then we can regroup after the internationals and slowly but surely look to re-establish a cohesive team ethos but I fear if Poch fails to get a tune out of this group then the tide will undoubtedly turn.
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
- 22,228
- 80,058
I think people tend to forget his championship winning teams would blitz teams. Madrid scored over 100 goals amd amassed over 90 points.
Not always pretty no, but in their prime very very efficient. He's also a master of the big game affairs, knows how to play them.
I think other than a couple of big signings everything is here for him to succeed. The likes of Kane, Alli, Son, Toby, Jan would buy into what he's selling cause he'd tell them they are there to win.
He wouldn't be walking into the mess at United and we're not a poisonous club like Chelsea.
WiganSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 16,026
- 32,758
Totally agreed, his media narrative (or lack of) is telling. You can't take anything he says at face value anymore. His press conferences no longer have meaning. He constantly contradicts himself.
Something has changed in him and it's difficult to see why.
cjsimba
Well-Known Member
- Dec 5, 2006
- 2,638
- 9,635
It’s clear to me that the biggest problem for Poch is the ‘unsettled’ players who he wants to leave - Eriksen, Jan, Toby, Rose, Wanyama, Aurier etc. That’s what he means when he talks about the next 2 windows - he needs these players gone.
For Poch’s methods to work he needs a team all pulling in the same direction but for the first time in his tenure he doesn’t have that. The summer of no transfers was such a key moment in our history as it meant that we couldn’t gradually evolve the squad, moving a few players in and a few players out each window to keep the team fresh and motivated. Instead we have reached a situation where many members of the current squad have reached the end of their time with us all at the same time and this is creating an unsettled feeling which permeates throughout the rest of the players. To top it off, the players that we did bring in this summer (a year too late) haven’t been able to replace those who are unsettled due to injury/fitness issues.
I understand why Poch didn’t want to give the green light to average players again in summer 2018 (like nkoudou and njie). However, I also understand from Levy's point of view that he needed to be frugal at a time where we were putting money into infrastructure for long term success - ie. he couldn’t bring in the marquee players Poch wanted. In that sense I don’t blame Poch for it and I don’t really blame Levy either - but ultimately that summer has had a big negative effect on us. Unfortunately, we’ve reached a rather sticky point in our ‘project’ - what might be seen as a perfect storm. But maybe for a club like ours, who are only just entering the elite, to keep progressing we just have to drop one step back to push two steps forward again in the future.
Maybe Levy will look longer term and be willing to endure a transitional season until Poch is left with a settled squad all pushing for the same goal, as his philosophy demands. But ultimately It’s a results business so maybe this is the end of the road for Poch. To progress further we might just need to get someone new and fresh in.
Poch’s recent tactical decisions do leave a lot to be desired, but I’m sure many are influenced by the ongoing unsettledness of players. I’m willing to give him more time to sort things out but what’s clear is we are suffering the worst time of Poch’s tenure at the moment. I for one hope he can turn things around. COYS
For Poch’s methods to work he needs a team all pulling in the same direction but for the first time in his tenure he doesn’t have that. The summer of no transfers was such a key moment in our history as it meant that we couldn’t gradually evolve the squad, moving a few players in and a few players out each window to keep the team fresh and motivated. Instead we have reached a situation where many members of the current squad have reached the end of their time with us all at the same time and this is creating an unsettled feeling which permeates throughout the rest of the players. To top it off, the players that we did bring in this summer (a year too late) haven’t been able to replace those who are unsettled due to injury/fitness issues.
I understand why Poch didn’t want to give the green light to average players again in summer 2018 (like nkoudou and njie). However, I also understand from Levy's point of view that he needed to be frugal at a time where we were putting money into infrastructure for long term success - ie. he couldn’t bring in the marquee players Poch wanted. In that sense I don’t blame Poch for it and I don’t really blame Levy either - but ultimately that summer has had a big negative effect on us. Unfortunately, we’ve reached a rather sticky point in our ‘project’ - what might be seen as a perfect storm. But maybe for a club like ours, who are only just entering the elite, to keep progressing we just have to drop one step back to push two steps forward again in the future.
Maybe Levy will look longer term and be willing to endure a transitional season until Poch is left with a settled squad all pushing for the same goal, as his philosophy demands. But ultimately It’s a results business so maybe this is the end of the road for Poch. To progress further we might just need to get someone new and fresh in.
Poch’s recent tactical decisions do leave a lot to be desired, but I’m sure many are influenced by the ongoing unsettledness of players. I’m willing to give him more time to sort things out but what’s clear is we are suffering the worst time of Poch’s tenure at the moment. I for one hope he can turn things around. COYS
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I don't know if we stick with him or not. I get the feeling that he wanted a lot more done this summer but for various reasons out of his control he's stuck with what we have.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but he got it totally wrong tonight with the players tonight. Only Dele really suited the system as neither wing back was worth the name, the CMs meh and the front three lacking ideas.
However, that at least shows that he's been trying some ideas out on the training ground and put them into practice. He didn't persist with what hasn't been working and instead tried something different in something that was meant to be a low risk scenario. That risk though wasn't low enough and now he's got a massive task ahead of him If we don't get a convincing win against Southampton then we may well stumble into the next international break and sack Poch there and then.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but he got it totally wrong tonight with the players tonight. Only Dele really suited the system as neither wing back was worth the name, the CMs meh and the front three lacking ideas.
However, that at least shows that he's been trying some ideas out on the training ground and put them into practice. He didn't persist with what hasn't been working and instead tried something different in something that was meant to be a low risk scenario. That risk though wasn't low enough and now he's got a massive task ahead of him If we don't get a convincing win against Southampton then we may well stumble into the next international break and sack Poch there and then.
Mr Pink
SC Supporter
- Aug 25, 2010
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Yeah
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel.
It's not looking great but providing Poch still wants to genuinely manage us for the foreseeable, he deserves more time to get us on the up.
But to be honest, he needs to fire them up more, stop playing too defensive and pedestrian and bring back the pressing and tempo to our game, like we saw against Palace - but on a consistent basis.
That needs to happen like yesterday otherwise the writing will be on the wall I think.
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel.
It's not looking great but providing Poch still wants to genuinely manage us for the foreseeable, he deserves more time to get us on the up.
But to be honest, he needs to fire them up more, stop playing too defensive and pedestrian and bring back the pressing and tempo to our game, like we saw against Palace - but on a consistent basis.
That needs to happen like yesterday otherwise the writing will be on the wall I think.
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
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And the players will see him in exactly the same light.
WiganSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
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But he's still playing Wanyama over about 3 alternative options and he's got easily the 3rd best squad in the league after Levy backed him this summer. The only excuse i've got for him now is Lo Celso and Sessegnon being injured and I can't see our whole aura, style of play and collective performances miraculously improving with those two back, however good they may be on an individual level.
Lighty64
I believe
- Aug 24, 2010
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yet again short memory Dortmund and Ajax
I'm not happy to go out, but still not in the Poch out camp
VancouverSpur
Well-Known Member
- Aug 26, 2010
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Forget the result and even the others going back to second half of last season. We were playing Colchester who were obviously going to have all 11 men behind the ball and try and frustrate us. We looked so ponderous and slow and devoid of any ideas similar to so many of our performances recently.
People point to the CL final as an achievement but we got there and we did not turn up. We were devoid of any urgency or ideas which I just could not fathom as it was the biggest game of all of these players careers. If you can't get up for the CL final then honestly what's the point. In my opinion the not playing Lucas decision is one that had major ramifications in the squad that we didn't hear much about but made a difference. Kane is once in a generation striker but Lucas got us to that final and should have started. History has shown us that Kane takes time to get up to speed and in fact can disrupt momentum when he goes straight back in the team.
Many things are not right and way too many to list. However for all Poch's talk of togetherness the fish stinks from the head. He has rightly taken so many plaudits so now he has to take the shit. I really want him to turn it around as on his day he is a wonderful manager. Sadly I have seen how this plays out too many times with other clubs and managers. Once you lose the players or the spark or the"it' factor its virtually impossible to get it back. Couple that with Eriksen,Toby,Jan all being out of contract soon and Rose and Aurier actively pursuing or being pushed to leave its no surprise where we were at.
If Poch is given time to turn this around it will be a fantastic achievement. Sadly I am not so sure he wants the time or will be given it.
People point to the CL final as an achievement but we got there and we did not turn up. We were devoid of any urgency or ideas which I just could not fathom as it was the biggest game of all of these players careers. If you can't get up for the CL final then honestly what's the point. In my opinion the not playing Lucas decision is one that had major ramifications in the squad that we didn't hear much about but made a difference. Kane is once in a generation striker but Lucas got us to that final and should have started. History has shown us that Kane takes time to get up to speed and in fact can disrupt momentum when he goes straight back in the team.
Many things are not right and way too many to list. However for all Poch's talk of togetherness the fish stinks from the head. He has rightly taken so many plaudits so now he has to take the shit. I really want him to turn it around as on his day he is a wonderful manager. Sadly I have seen how this plays out too many times with other clubs and managers. Once you lose the players or the spark or the"it' factor its virtually impossible to get it back. Couple that with Eriksen,Toby,Jan all being out of contract soon and Rose and Aurier actively pursuing or being pushed to leave its no surprise where we were at.
If Poch is given time to turn this around it will be a fantastic achievement. Sadly I am not so sure he wants the time or will be given it.
dagraham
Well-Known Member
- Sep 20, 2005
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Don’t see why Rose and Jan are lumped in with this. Jan constantly says he wants to stay and Rose keeps alluding to the fact it’s the club who want to get rid of him.
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