Top four finish?

[Shadydan]

Arsenal (who according to most Spurs fans have poor defenders) and Man Utd (who are apparently generally awful) have conceded the same amount of goals as us and played one game more.

But I hope you're right and we maintain our defensive form. But even if we do at what price? I'm actually bored watching us this season. I am willing the team to be more expansive and play at a higher tempo but if we do, will our defence crumble? Or do we need to play at the pedestrian pace we play at to maintain a defensive shape?

 

[Atomic Flea]

If our first 11 was fully fit all season then we would have a good chance of getting top four but if injury strikes Kane, Dier or Alderwerield then we will struggle. We just need to take each game as it comes and who knows, we could be right up there come March or April. Then we can hope.

 

[nicdic]

Cool.

I've posted all this shit before anyway. But if you want to use the sample size of one team between the months of August and October to try to prove a point then go for it. It's the wrong thing to do FYI. But I gave up trying to make people see sense on this a long time ago...

Oh what the hell, here you go.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...47ONOTD3rnbzD-X-Q&sig2=T1C51EX_EKpGt6nZiEmrfA


Fuck knows why I'm opening this can of worms again. All the people who don't think the EL has negative impact on league form that's worse than being in the CL. Well you're all wrong.

I'm not saying that there isn't any negative impact, I'm challenging the assumption that it's due to the timing of fixtures.

A much more compelling argument for me is the general perception of the Europa League verses the Champions League. I actually don't think you can make any valid comparisons about fatigue from each competition when each competition is approached in such vastly different ways. I'd say that a fairer comparison would be between League Cup and Europa League. Both seen as lesser competitions that aren't to be taken as seriously.

The Champions League is seen as the pinnacle, which I'm sure provides an extra boost for teams and players, and perhaps often takes priority over league games. In contrast Europa is seen as a waste of time by fans, media, pundits, etc. and I'm sure that translates to the players and clubs. I think the mental aspect to it has a much greater effect than the physical.

 

[Sevens]

You didn't say who you thought was better, which was the question.

I do agree there are no stand out teams, and therefore I do think it's attainable. From what I have seen of Son, he looks like a player that can make a big difference for us, and I hope will give us an advantage.

So far this season? Well all the teams above us in the league so far maybe? Obviously City and Arsenal (sadly)when fully firing look a class apart. West Ham have looked brilliant and awful. In fact in terms of brilliant I think a lot of teams have looked far better than us but at the same time those same teams worst performances are considerably worse than us.

The biggest surprise at the moment is clearly Leicester. Vardy has been sensational. I think the likes of Liverpool, Southampton, Palace and Everton have played as well as us.

 

[Sevens]

On a regular basis I've heard a lot Spurs fans laugh about Mertesacker. claim Koscielny is rubbish, Gibbs is far worse than Rose, Chambers is far worse than Dier, Monreal is terrible etc.

 

[Shadydan]

That doesn't make it any more true though

 

[dudu]

Cool.

I've posted all this shit before anyway. But if you want to use the sample size of one team between the months of August and October to try to prove a point then go for it. It's the wrong thing to do FYI. But I gave up trying to make people see sense on this a long time ago...

Oh what the hell, here you go.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...47ONOTD3rnbzD-X-Q&sig2=T1C51EX_EKpGt6nZiEmrfA


Fuck knows why I'm opening this can of worms again. All the people who don't think the EL has negative impact on league form that's worse than being in the CL. Well you're all wrong.

Thanks for posting again - dont think I had seen it.

A degree of circumstance needs to be taken into consideration here. A lot of teams that enter into the Europa league have worse squads than those in the Champions League and cannot cope as well due to their inability to rotate the squad.

I know he mentions this but it is it important to note because it makes a big difference - as can be seen by his own numbers in relation to us vs other prem teams in the Europa that year.

In fact our two losses to the Manchester sides were due to other factors rather than the Europa so while they are included in the statistics as losses - the simple fact we played a nothing team vs Hearts means it couldnt have had any affect on our teams fatigue - we just lost.

So my opinion is the better your squad and the more fit players you have the better you can cope with the 2 days recovery and the better results youre likely to have. The question is do we have a squad that is able to cope - Last year, being in two cups for a good period of the season - it was always going to have a negative effect on our overall fatigue.

If we buy a couple of players in January and keep our squad relatively fit I think we could manage a push for both.

 

[nightgoat]

It's just too smaller sample size though mate. And I've come around to the EL, it needs managing and will always have a negative effect on our league form(unless we had two completely separate squads, managers and coaches... not gonna happen obvs) but there are advantages. Some money, attract players, blood in the kids. And top four isn't everything. So that's fine. It's fine to say we shouldn't just throw the EL or refuse to go in it, we should try and win it etc.

What just isn't fine is not accepting it has negative effect on our league performances. It's a bit like climate change denial or creationism. When you get shown a massive body of evidence and all things point to one conclusion and yet you refuse to to accept that conclusion. And make up something else. Like the Grand Canyon was formed because of Noahs flood. This is not an acceptable view because all the evidence points to that not being the case.

So people may not be aware of the evidence in this case. It's there but the media haven't spent any time discussing it other than the occasional "Oh they look a bit leggy, could be the EL hangover". But if you really look into it and look at all the facts and stats it's neigh on impossible to say the EL doesn't effect league performances in a negative way. Actually, it also pretty much says the prem clubs get a far worser deal than spain and other countries.

Furthermore the evidence points to the EL being a bigger drain on league form than the CL. Quite a lot more in fact.

So I'm trying to enjoy it more, I don't think the players or the spurs higher ups hold it in very high regard but it's only 25 quid a ticket so I'm off on Thursday. But it's cost us CL in the past. Most likely multiple times. And the people at spurs will know this, they're not stupid but they can't really do anything about it. They've got to field strong teams or the fans get pissed off paying for tickets/travel to see a real b team. But if they were given the opportunity I think you'd see a hell of a lot more weakened teams in the EL if they at all thought they could get away with it.

But it hasn't had a negative impact on our league performances so far, despite playing strong teams in each game so far. We should have beaten Swansea, but then we should have also beaten Everton and Stoke and we had full clear weeks before both of those games.

And I've said before, it's all very well saying there's loads of evidence to lay blame at the Europa League but that 'evidence' doesn't take other factors into account. Take last season for instance. We lost at home to Stoke after our away trip to Greece. Your 'evidence' will just put that down to the Europa League, but won't take into account Stoke opening the scoring with a goal that should have been disallowed for offside.

Nor does it offer any kind of variables for whether each game was one the team in question would otherwise be expected to win or not. When Stoke were in the Europa League they played Arsenal away after a Thursday game against Maccabi Tel-Aviv. They lost 3-1. The 'evidence' says they lost because they played in the Europa League, but we all know that as Stoke have lost every time they've played Arsenal away in the Premier League no one would expect that result to be any different had they not been playing in midweek.

It's been fashionable to knock the Europa League since Redknapp scoffed at it and threw it away, not least because of the perceived idea that every game is against a team from a country ending in -stan, but then every group in the Champions League bar Man City's has a team from somewhere like Russia, Ukraine, Israel or Kazakhstan. You may think a bunch of results taken out of every context besides what date they were played on proves the Europa League has a detrimental effect on our league performances and results, but as I pointed out originally we have two wins and a draw from our post-EL games so far this season, so it's obviously bucking what you believe to be a trend.

It's easy to say it's cost us Champions League qualification in the past, but again, that's far too simple to point the blame at over a 38 game season, especially when we've had two Harry collapses, the flukiest Champions League winners ever and a goalkeeper on the take throwing the ball into his own net three times that have also contributed besides many other factors.

 

[nightgoat]

Thanks for posting again - dont think I had seen it.

A degree of circumstance needs to be taken into consideration here. A lot of teams that enter into the Europa league have worse squads than those in the Champions League and cannot cope as well due to their inability to rotate the squad.

I know he mentions this but it is it important to note because it makes a big difference - as can be seen by his own numbers in relation to us vs other prem teams in the Europa that year.

In fact our two losses to the Manchester sides were due to other factors rather than the Europa so while they are included in the statistics as losses - the simple fact we played a nothing team vs Hearts means it couldnt have had any affect on our teams fatigue - we just lost.

So my opinion is the better your squad and the more fit players you have the better you can cope with the 2 days recovery and the better results youre likely to have. The question is do we have a squad that is able to cope - Last year, being in two cups for a good period of the season - it was always going to have a negative effect on our overall fatigue.

If we buy a couple of players in January and keep our squad relatively fit I think we could manage a push for both.

I seem to recall we played a pretty strong team in the first game against Hearts, most likely in order to win the tie then and be able to play a weakened team in the second leg.

Plus, he calls us Tottenham Hotspurs, so everything he says is VOID.

 

[dudu]

I seem to recall we played a pretty strong team in the first game against Hearts, most likely in order to win the tie then and be able to play a weakened team in the second leg.

Plus, he calls us Tottenham Hotspurs, so everything he says is VOID.

I stand corrected - we did play a strong team. Maybe also as our opening game of the season was postponed due to the riots?

My point still just about stands for the City Game though

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I don't think we are that much better defensively. I think we just haven't been punished as much as usual. Lloris has pulled off some great saves, opposition players have got behind our full backs but fluffed their cross, we have had three occasions where we've been lucky the referee has not spotted a penalty that should have been given to the opposition etc.

I can see three ways in which we are systemically better defensively than we have been for the past two seasons.

When the opposition counter-attacks, we rarely look entirely panicked and out of position. The defence forms a coherent shape and usually deals with the attack. Before this season, we had a chronic problem with good defenders playing badly and this was frequently the result of the defence being habitually disorganised when we lost posession and had to cope with a counter-attack.

The second aspect is that Vertonghen and Alderweireld have a much more symbiotic working relationship than any of last season's "who is it this week?" partnerships. They cover for each other.

The third development is the most important, which is that we have a proper defensive midfielder. Dier has been doing well, but this is less to do with Dier personally and more to do with Pochettino's tactical decision to play with a disciplined holding player. It has taken a huge amount of pressure off Vertonghen and Alderweireld.

So I think it isn't a coincidence that we have conceded fewer goals, but the proof of concept will only establish itself over the course of 30 games, not 11.

 

[Sevens]

I can see three ways in which we are systemically better defensively than we have been for the past two seasons.

When the opposition counter-attacks, we rarely look entirely panicked and out of position. The defence forms a coherent shape and usually deals with the attack. Before this season, we had a chronic problem with good defenders playing badly and this was frequently the result of the defence being habitually disorganised when we lost posession and had to cope with a counter-attack.

The second aspect is that Vertonghen and Alderweireld have a much more symbiotic working relationship than any of last season's "who is it this week?" partnerships. The cover for each other.

The third developemnt is the most important, which is that we have a proper defensive midfielder. Dier has been doing well, but this is less to do with Dier personally and more to do with Pochettino's tactical decision to play with a disciplined holding player. It has taken a huge amount of pressure off Vertonghen and Alderweireld.

So I think it isn't a coincidence that we have conceded fewer goals, but the proof of concept will only establish itself over the course of 30 games, not 11.

I agree on Dier. Just having someone shield the defence and cover the full backs is crucial. I am not sure Dier's discipline in the role is down to instructions or lack of confidence as he gets used the position though. Time will tell as he grows into it.

 

[Ironskullll]

I'm not saying that there isn't any negative impact, I'm challenging the assumption that it's due to the timing of fixtures.

A much more compelling argument for me is the general perception of the Europa League verses the Champions League. I actually don't think you can make any valid comparisons about fatigue from each competition when each competition is approached in such vastly different ways. I'd say that a fairer comparison would be between League Cup and Europa League. Both seen as lesser competitions that aren't to be taken as seriously.

The Champions League is seen as the pinnacle, which I'm sure provides an extra boost for teams and players, and perhaps often takes priority over league games. In contrast Europa is seen as a waste of time by fans, media, pundits, etc. and I'm sure that translates to the players and clubs. I think the mental aspect to it has a much greater effect than the physical.

It's not tiredness that's the primary issue, it's the lack of adequate preparation for the next league game. That's why even when players are rested it seems to make little difference.

 

[Sevens]

It's not tiredness that's the primary issue, it's the lack of adequate preparation for the next league game. That's why even when players are rested it seems to make little difference.

Travelling takes it out of people, especially across time zones. I've often had to travel for work and even European travel really screws you up after a while. It's the little things like not sleeping in a bed you find comfortable etc.

I personally feel in the group stages against longer haul opponents the Manager is better off sending a second string side and the Assistant Manager, before joining them on the actual day of the match. That way he can stay at home and work with the stronger team for the upcoming league match. My logic behind this is that the longer haul games tend to be against the weaker opponents anyway.

 

[arunspurs]

Arsenal (who according to most Spurs fans have poor defenders) and Man Utd (who are apparently generally awful) have conceded the same amount of goals as us and played one game more.

But I hope you're right and we maintain our defensive form. But even if we do at what price? I'm actually bored watching us this season. I am willing the team to be more expansive and play at a higher tempo but if we do, will our defence crumble? Or do we need to play at the pedestrian pace we play at to maintain a defensive shape?

Ok...Where do I start with this...

United & Arsenal have better defensive record is down to Schneiderlin & Coaqulin respectively. Everyone knows how well Scheniderlin protected the Saints back 4. Coaquelin - statistically is the best (grudgingly admitting) defensive midfielder in PL. You take out those two from the two teams , you will see a different goals conceded stats.
Its no fluke that the same teams concede more in CL where the defenders show tactical naivity. We have joint best defensive record is also down to a defensive midfielder in Dier.

Secondly - you are bored watching us ? Really ? Were you around when we used to play slow back pass football under AVB (am not AVB hater btw)...? This year its so much better than last. We have seen faster transition from defense to attack. Likes of Alli,Mason & Son playing good one touch football. Lamela has improved in attack. Had Kane been scoring from his chances, we should have scored atleast 5 or 6 more.

I want a football, where end of the day goal difference in plus and double digit. We are doing it in both ends. We are conceding less & scoring more. We have played balanced football till now and have already got +8 GD - not been done for last 4 or 5 years....

 

[arunspurs]

On a regular basis I've heard a lot Spurs fans laugh about Mertesacker. claim Koscielny is rubbish, Gibbs is far worse than Rose, Chambers is far worse than Dier, Monreal is terrible etc.

I don't know whats "lots" with respect to you. If there are some who are mocking them, its just banter. You can't take banter as serious views on players and derive something out of nothing.
Having said that, Chambers is actually terrible - you can ask Arsenal fans.

 

[beats1]

I don't know whats "lots" with respect to you. If there are some who are mocking them, its just banter. You can't take banter as serious views on players and derive something out of nothing.
Having said that, Chambers is actually terrible - you can ask Arsenal fans.

So is Gibbs

 

[dondo]

Why?

Because I support spurs and whoever arsenal are playing

 

[sim0n]

so of course, we'll know after 38 games

but seriously, at the moment only city and gooners look consistent enough to be like top 2. so, 3 and 4 are wide open IMHO with leicester and west ham not likely to be up there by february time. IMO manUre is just smoke and mirrors... saints are no big deal and chel$ki are WAY off the pace currently... maybe l'pool with Herr Klopp have a shot and I believe everton can be up there. IMO Spurs have a better squad than manUre, l'pool, and everton, but LvG and Herr Klopp are proven winners at a high level, so I think those are the 2 real obstacles to Spurs for a top 4 finish. thinking city and arsenal at 1 & 2, Spurs look to be fighting for 3rd and I think they can achieve that this season.

COYS!!!

 

[Shadydan]

Ok...Where do I start with this...

United & Arsenal have better defensive record is down to Schneiderlin & Coaqulin respectively. Everyone knows how well Scheniderlin protected the Saints back 4. Coaquelin - statistically is the best (grudgingly admitting) defensive midfielder in PL. You take out those two from the two teams , you will see a different goals conceded stats.
Its no fluke that the same teams concede more in CL where the defenders show tactical naivity. We have joint best defensive record is also down to a defensive midfielder in Dier.

Secondly - you are bored watching us ? Really ? Were you around when we used to play slow back pass football under AVB (am not AVB hater btw)...? This year its so much better than last. We have seen faster transition from defense to attack. Likes of Alli,Mason & Son playing good one touch football. Lamela has improved in attack. Had Kane been scoring from his chances, we should have scored atleast 5 or 6 more.

I want a football, where end of the day goal difference in plus and double digit. We are doing it in both ends. We are conceding less & scoring more. We have played balanced football till now and have already got +8 GD - not been done for last 4 or 5 years....

Also defensive contribution isn't solely down to your back line, it's how you defend as a team which allows you to concede less goals, so whether some people may think that Arsenal have average individuals their collective strength as a team is very good, just like ours hence we have the best joint defences in the league.