The Club, and planning for the long term/the future

[mpickard2087]

I agree with having a proper DOF but again you see the problem is Levy and his need to be in control. Poch as already said in a couple of articles that we need a unique philosophy it was a message that was delivered to the board diplomatically. I don't think Levy as a unique strategy that he truly believes in. The astute businessman that he is, he should have been looking, studying the systems of ajax and Barcelona long before now and trying to emulate them. I am very convinced that none of the players from the academy would be there if it wasn't for the failure of the 2013 signings. kane has said himself he don't think he would be at the club if Sherwood had not given him a chance. Levy is totally focused on achieving champions league football I don't think he minds if we sell people from the academy to get there. If there is no patience there is no way the acadmey can work.

This is a good post because you are right, who sets the vision? Really it needs to from the very top, but with Levy you kinda get the impression that he has a vague idea of what he wants to do and how the club should operate (usually to fit a financial/business standpoint, which is fair enough) and what style of play he wants to see but he's not really totally committed to anything and isn't massively ideological (which I'll admit is how these sorts of things/ideas come about) or a big thinker about the footballing side of things.

Nor do we have some intelligent visionary hanging about the club with big ideas and enough sway to get things started and drive things on. We don't have for example a Cruyff that Ajax/Barca had.

 

[nicdic]

as much as you will deny it, that will happen no matter what system is in place. at least if the manager has been sacked then we've identified where the so called problem is, you sack managers under a technical director then how many do we go through until we think hang on a minute, maybe HE is the problem? it's something that works in an ideal world but in practice it causes more problems than it's worth imo.

Deciding upon a top down philosophy for the whole of the club is for one going to be a long term plan, and two, the things that you'd incorporate into the philosophy would be things you want the club to embody at all times.

A commitment to a philosophy would actually allow the club to flourish and thrive long term I think, rather than the flip-flopping and rebuilding we've had to do every couple of years or so when a different approach doesn't work.

The Technical Director could be a problem, and I guess they could be fired and someone else found if need be, but I think you're thinking about this in too narrow terms. The aim that was being set out was deep club philosophies that we would want the club to embody and give real commitment too... exciting attacking football, production of home grown talent, etc. I think this model offers the best chance of that as well long term stability.

 

[nicdic]

This is a good post because you are right, who sets the vision? Really it needs to from the very top, but with Levy you kinda get the impression that he has a vague idea of what he wants to do and how the club should operate (usually to fit a financial/business standpoint, which is fair enough) and what style of play he wants to see but he's not really totally committed to anything and isn't massively ideological (which I'll admit is how these sorts of things/ideas come about) or a big thinker about the footballing side of things.

Nor do we have some intelligent visionary hanging about the club with big ideas and enough sway to get things started and drive things on. We don't have for example a Cruyff that Ajax/Barca had.

Yep. As good as I think you're ideas are, who do we have in or around the club to implement such a vision?

 

[Mullers]

It's a good post with plenty in there that I agree with.

I agree that we should look to focus on the youth team, however I tend to think our youth players (with one or two obvious exceptions) are overrated. I also think it is important for young players to be able to learn from more established and experienced players. Someone like Cambiasso could have offered a huge amount to players like Bentaleb and Mason.

In terms of having a fixed style of play - I'm not so sure about this. Having an identity is all well and good, but there needs to be flexibility and opportunities for individual expression.

In all honesty I think if I were in Levy's position and genuinely wanted to plan for the club's successful future, I'd be badgering billionaires every day in the hope that I could find someone prepared to buy the club and bring our spending power up to the levels necessary to be competitive. You could execute the plan in the OP perfectly in every way, only for Everton, Villa, and Newcastle to all get taken over by billionaires and render all our efforts more or less pointless (at least in the eyes of people who want to see us winning more than just the 'best run club of the year' trophy).

That's the only way I can ever see us genuinely competing for honours on a regular basis. As much as I like a lot of ideas in the OP, if the most it can achieve is remaining the best of the rest and not worrying about our financial stability we might as well carry on as we are now, as apart from a few exotic (and often not very exotic) European fixtures there's little difference between finishing 5th or 15th if we're not competing for trophies in a meaningful and consistent way.

You're saying that as a pure out and out fan, Levy is a fan but he also enjoys running the club very much, he gets off on hard negotiations with other chairman and he doesn't like to fail, imo selling the club to a billionaire in his head is an admission of failure, he truly believes he is the best person to run the club.

 

[yido_number1]

Yep. As good as I think you're ideas are, who do we have in or around the club to implement such a vision?

The unfortunate thing is the only long term thing in the club is the financial planning (IE build the stadium) and the academy which gives young talent any where from 5 to 10 years of continuous coaching. Our first team has never been planned any more than 2-3 years at a time due to the management changes.

If anything chasing champions league and the Bale Money has set us back. If we stuck with the signing young talent philosophy we probably wouldnt have signed players like Soldado, Adebayor, Chiriches, Fazio, Paulinho etc... That is the problem everyone discusses on here regularly when to stick or twist.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Deciding upon a top down philosophy for the whole of the club is for one going to be a long term plan, and two, the things that you'd incorporate into the philosophy would be things you want the club to embody at all times.

A commitment to a philosophy would actually allow the club to flourish and thrive long term I think, rather than the flip-flopping and rebuilding we've had to do every couple of years or so when a different approach doesn't work.

The Technical Director could be a problem, and I guess they could be fired and someone else found if need be, but I think you're thinking about this in too narrow terms. The aim that was being set out was deep club philosophies that we would want the club to embody and give real commitment too... exciting attacking football, production of home grown talent, etc. I think this model offers the best chance of that as well long term stability.

ok, so technical director identifies a player he says we should sign, he puts it to the coach and he says no, i don't want him. you're daniel levy, what do you do? because either way you're going to be undermining one of them, something you wouldn't have to do if this middle man wasn't there.

 

[yido_number1]

You're saying that as a pure out and out fan, Levy is a fan but he also enjoys running the club very much, he gets off on hard negotiations with other chairman and he doesn't like to fail, imo selling the club to a billionaire in his head is an admission of failure, he truly believes he is the best person to run the club.

I think selling the club for the maximum return is success to him. We know they have set the bar high and the only get outs for them are either stadium financed and then sell to someone who will build or post stadium and regular champs league football. Enic bought as an investment and are pretty much a private equity style deal here. As with private equity they buy, develop and then sell on for a profit. Lewis hasn't bought the club so Levy will can play football manager. He will expect to get the club to a point and sell for a profit.

 

[Spurger King]

You're saying that as a pure out and out fan, Levy is a fan but he also enjoys running the club very much, he gets off on hard negotiations with other chairman and he doesn't like to fail, imo selling the club to a billionaire in his head is an admission of failure, he truly believes he is the best person to run the club.

I'm not saying if I were Levy - I'm saying if I were in his position. And yes that does mean I'd be thinking as a fan.

It really doesn't matter what philosophy or future planning we put in place if Levy is in charge if we're hoping to be successful. It's not his fault but we'll simply never be in a position to compete regularly with the likes of Oil Money, Chelsea, Arsenal, and United. The best we'll ever be able to achieve under Levy/Lewis is to consolidate our position as the 'best of the rest' and keep our fingers crossed that no other clubs get bought out by owners that would blow us out of the water.

 

[nicdic]

ok, so technical director identifies a player he says we should sign, he puts it to the coach and he says no, i don't want him. you're daniel levy, what do you do? because either way you're going to be undermining one of them, something you wouldn't have to do if this middle man wasn't there.

You're making it far too simplistic. The coach would I guess identify an area in the squad where they'd like to improve, then in communication with the Director scouts would compile a list of players who'd fit the criteria (whatever they may be) and then between them they'd make a decision. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

[mpickard2087]

It's a good post with plenty in there that I agree with.

I agree that we should look to focus on the youth team, however I tend to think our youth players (with one or two obvious exceptions) are overrated. I also think it is important for young players to be able to learn from more established and experienced players. Someone like Cambiasso could have offered a huge amount to players like Bentaleb and Mason.

In terms of having a fixed style of play - I'm not so sure about this. Having an identity is all well and good, but there needs to be flexibility and opportunities for individual expression.

In all honesty I think if I were in Levy's position and genuinely wanted to plan for the club's successful future, I'd be badgering billionaires every day in the hope that I could find someone prepared to buy the club and bring our spending power up to the levels necessary to be competitive. You could execute the plan in the OP perfectly in every way, only for Everton, Villa, and Newcastle to all get taken over by billionaires and render all our efforts more or less pointless (at least in the eyes of people who want to see us winning more than just the 'best run club of the year' trophy).

That's the only way I can ever see us genuinely competing for honours on a regular basis. As much as I like a lot of ideas in the OP, if the most it can achieve is remaining the best of the rest and not worrying about our financial stability we might as well carry on as we are now, as apart from a few exotic (and often not very exotic) European fixtures there's little difference between finishing 5th or 15th if we're not competing for trophies in a meaningful and consistent way.

Obviously the shortest, and simplest answer would have been 'Look for a billionaire'. And that's probably the more likely thing to happen. Wouldn't have made much of a thread though... (I suspect many who did attempt to read the OP would have preferred that answer though!)

This is just ideas at how to attempt to bridge the gap in the long term assuming things haven't changed.

Picking out some of those other points, most of them pretty fair, I'd say:

- Of course there is a balancing act to be had, you need a blend of youth/experience. I did mention for this year that Carrick is someone I'd love to have sitting in midfield and offering his calmness and keeping things ticking. The aim for a bigger % of the squad to have come through the ranks is a long term one, I'm not just talking about next year or two. You'd imagine/hope that if we do get to that point where a large majority is homegrown, squad management etc. has ensured that the balance has been struck and we still have say 30 year old Kane's/Bentaleb's/or whoever (could be a signing) that are here to provide experience.

- As far as 'predicting the future' and pondering whether we can compete regularly at the top end, as I said its a long term process. I'm assuming things aren't changing in terms of ownership and merely offering possible solutions to overcome it rather than just accepting our lot. The only way we are getting multiple world class players in our squad any time relatively soon in that case is if they have come through the ranks. If we do that then they could propel us upwards, and then we have more money long term and can hang on to them and add quality then where needed. Remember we also have the new stadium, which is going to put pressure on us whether Levy and co. admit it or not, and so this approach is arguably the right one to ease financial pressures of balancing the team & stadium.

- As for style of play I get what you are saying. I more forsee overall principles of how the team sets up (can be counter attacking, long ball, posession, high pressing etc.) and those shown on a consistent basis. As I said, I'd like to see formational flexibility though and an ability to change approach if required. Obviously there are games where you might want to shut up shop and defend, others where you think you can catch teams out by being a bit more direct. That's where the Head Coach, and where I said I place more importance on them being a tactician, comes into it.

 

[Mullers]

This is a good post because you are right, who sets the vision? Really it needs to from the very top, but with Levy you kinda get the impression that he has a vague idea of what he wants to do and how the club should operate (usually to fit a financial/business standpoint, which is fair enough) and what style of play he wants to see but he's not really totally committed to anything and isn't massively ideological (which I'll admit is how these sorts of things/ideas come about) or a big thinker about the footballing side of things.

Nor do we have some intelligent visionary hanging about the club with big ideas and enough sway to get things started and drive things on. We don't have for example a Cruyff that Ajax/Barca had.

Levy is a great businessman he isn't clueless about football but he has to let go of some of the reins he could employ an intelligent visionary but that means giving up some control and following what they say he just does not want to do that. AVB wanted a DOF in the first season and I honestly thought that Levy would jump at the chance but didn't and when he does employ him, nobody hears for him or knows what he does. We have a former DOF telling us our scouting network is a joke, we have no scouts. Unforgivable considering the kind of model Levy is trying to implement.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

We have a former DOF telling us our scouting network is a joke, we have no scouts. Unforgivable considering the kind of model Levy is trying to implement.

That's obviously changed.

 

[mpickard2087]

ok, so technical director identifies a player he says we should sign, he puts it to the coach and he says no, i don't want him. you're daniel levy, what do you do? because either way you're going to be undermining one of them, something you wouldn't have to do if this middle man wasn't there.

What I was trying to put across with the OP, but I fear hasn't worked, was that we need to get away from the idea that the DOF/Technical Director or whatever you call him is there as some transfer fixer and that's his primary (and secondary, and tertiary...) job. If anything that's the last thing he should be doing. As I gave some examples, there's a million and one things he could be doing overseeing the whole footballing structure of the club that doesn't involve looking at who we could sign next.

He shouldn't be actively identifying players we should sign. That is Coach-led when they discuss the squad and the Coach is invited to suggest where we are lacking on the field.

It is probably right to point out though that this role you'd need to appoint someone who doesn't have an ego or ambitions of moving closer to the first team picture. I don't see why though with clear job remits why they couldnt co-exist. They dont like it then dont take the roles in the first place...

 

[Mullers]

I think selling the club for the maximum return is success to him. We know they have set the bar high and the only get outs for them are either stadium financed and then sell to someone who will build or post stadium and regular champs league football. Enic bought as an investment and are pretty much a private equity style deal here. As with private equity they buy, develop and then sell on for a profit. Lewis hasn't bought the club so Levy will can play football manager. He will expect to get the club to a point and sell for a profit.

I really don't think he has an interest in selling with a statement like he wants to make us one of the best clubs in Europe. Levy and ENIC have a profitable business here that they are doing well from, they don't have any pressing need to sell, they could be there for the next 20 or 30 years.

 

[mpickard2087]

Levy is a great businessman he isn't clueless about football but he has to let go of some of the reins he could employ an intelligent visionary but that means giving up some control and following what they say he just does not want to do that. AVB wanted a DOF in the first season and I honestly thought that Levy would jump at the chance but didn't and when he does employ him, nobody hears for him or knows what he does. We have a former DOF telling us our scouting network is a joke, we have no scouts. Unforgivable considering the kind of model Levy is trying to implement.

I agree it would mean giving up some control, though I don't imagine Levy is that much involved beyond getting his transfer negotiation kicks. To be honest, in my structure if he wanted to negotiate those then he would be free to.

Baldini was a useless choice because he's a transfer guy and just there to schmooze. The typical British stereotype version of the DOF rather than having any track record in the wider-ranging role that I described in the OP. It's not a very ambitious or forward thinking appointment, in my opinion.

 

[Mullers]

I'm not saying if I were Levy - I'm saying if I were in his position. And yes that does mean I'd be thinking as a fan.

It really doesn't matter what philosophy or future planning we put in place if Levy is in charge if we're hoping to be successful. It's not his fault but we'll simply never be in a position to compete regularly with the likes of Oil Money, Chelsea, Arsenal, and United. The best we'll ever be able to achieve under Levy/Lewis is to consolidate our position as the 'best of the rest' and keep our fingers crossed that no other clubs get bought out by owners that would blow us out of the water.

I don't think he has delivered a strategy to the maximum of its potential. United's success was based around their academy and to an extent so were the trophies that Liverpool won with Fowler, Owen and there other boys. Arsenal employed the right manager and generally brought players for low transfer fees a well as producing some of their own talent. If we had stuck with a strategy during the 15 years of ENIC and delivered it to the maximum I think there is every chance we would be competing regularly.

 

[newbie]

It's a good post with plenty in there that I agree with.

I agree that we should look to focus on the youth team, however I tend to think our youth players (with one or two obvious exceptions) are overrated. I also think it is important for young players to be able to learn from more established and experienced players. Someone like Cambiasso could have offered a huge amount to players like Bentaleb and Mason.

In terms of having a fixed style of play - I'm not so sure about this. Having an identity is all well and good, but there needs to be flexibility and opportunities for individual expression.

In all honesty I think if I were in Levy's position and genuinely wanted to plan for the club's successful future, I'd be badgering billionaires every day in the hope that I could find someone prepared to buy the club and bring our spending power up to the levels necessary to be competitive. You could execute the plan in the OP perfectly in every way, only for Everton, Villa, and Newcastle to all get taken over by billionaires and render all our efforts more or less pointless (at least in the eyes of people who want to see us winning more than just the 'best run club of the year' trophy).

That's the only way I can ever see us genuinely competing for honours on a regular basis. As much as I like a lot of ideas in the OP, if the most it can achieve is remaining the best of the rest and not worrying about our financial stability we might as well carry on as we are now, as apart from a few exotic (and often not very exotic) European fixtures there's little difference between finishing 5th or 15th if we're not competing for trophies in a meaningful and consistent way.

our youth players are underrated, we have played games regually, with Rose (yes he came though our academy) Mason, Bents, Townsend, Kane I don't see how our academy is overrated, Tom Carrol, Milos, pritcahrd, Fredricks all on the fringes, with Ball, CCV, KWP, Omomar, Winks, Harrison, Oligive, Mcgee, Oduwa, and many many more a few years a way. I have missed a lot of players out who look very very talented not to mention players like Georgiou and Miller who are bloody underated. most people don't realise that we pick technical players not big physical lumps or really quick players so it take longer for them to come though and we aim to get them first team ready in there 21-23s rather than at 17 yrs old.

wait a few years and see how many players there are in the championship and prem from our academy I bet it will be frightening.

 

[yido_number1]

I really don't think he has an interest in selling with a statement like he wants to make us one of the best clubs in Europe. Levy and ENIC have a profitable business here that they are doing well from, they don't have any pressing need to sell, they could be there for the next 20 or 30 years.

They really don't make that much from the club. I've not looked at the accounts too much but I'd be interested to see what dividend they have been taking out. The only pay off I can see is once the stadium is built given the amount of land they have invested in.

 

[Spurger King]

Obviously the shortest, and simplest answer would have been 'Look for a billionaire'. And that's probably the more likely thing to happen. Wouldn't have made much of a thread though... (I suspect many who did attempt to read the OP would have preferred that answer though!)

This is just ideas at how to attempt to bridge the gap in the long term assuming things haven't changed.

Picking out some of those other points, most of them pretty fair, I'd say:

- Of course there is a balancing act to be had, you need a blend of youth/experience. I did mention for this year that Carrick is someone I'd love to have sitting in midfield and offering his calmness and keeping things ticking. The aim for a bigger % of the squad to have come through the ranks is a long term one, I'm not just talking about next year or two. You'd imagine/hope that if we do get to that point where a large majority is homegrown, squad management etc. has ensured that the balance has been struck and we still have say 30 year old Kane's/Bentaleb's/or whoever (could be a signing) that are here to provide experience.

- As far as 'predicting the future' and pondering whether we can compete regularly at the top end, as I said its a long term process. I'm assuming things aren't changing in terms of ownership and merely offering possible solutions to overcome it rather than just accepting our lot. The only way we are getting multiple world class players in our squad any time relatively soon in that case is if they have come through the ranks. If we do that then they could propel us upwards, and then we have more money long term and can hang on to them and add quality then where needed. Remember we also have the new stadium, which is going to put pressure on us whether Levy and co. admit it or not, and so this approach is arguably the right one to ease financial pressures of balancing the team & stadium.

- As for style of play I get what you are saying. I more forsee overall principles of how the team sets up (can be counter attacking, long ball, posession, high pressing etc.) and those shown on a consistent basis. As I said, I'd like to see formational flexibility though and an ability to change approach if required. Obviously there are games where you might want to shut up shop and defend, others where you think you can catch teams out by being a bit more direct. That's where the Head Coach, and where I said I place more importance on them being a tactician, comes into it.

I would love to see the first team being made up of players that have risen from the youth sides. I just think there are so many opportunities for the players to go elsewhere, and the transition from youth to Prem level is incredibly difficult to predict. Look at the likes of Pekhart and Coulibaly - the former did brilliantly in our youth team, the latter arrived as one of the hottest youth properties in football - it's such a difficult thing to consistently produce first team quality players. Certainly keep looking to focus on youth - I just can't see it as being a reliable source of good players.

In terms of style, yes it would be good to have a variety of consistent approaches at all levels. It's why I've said elsewhere that even though I'm not a huge fan of Pochettino, I'd like to see him given a decent amount of time at the club to get his approach across. After AVB I think there has been a lot of repair work needed on the squad, and that can't be resolved in one or even two summer transfer windows.

I do think that Levy's hands are tied in terms of making us genuine challengers, as it seems now more than ever the table is largely dictated by bank balance. However, I fully agree with the sentiments of your posts in that the best possible chance we have is to put a more thorough and thoughtful plan into place....and stick to it for once!

 

[spurs9]

It was a unique transfer policy where we signing young British and foreign talent not really an academy as such such but I also liked that path. We lost Arnesen to Chelsea but I don't think Levy truly believed in this strategy otherwise he would have stuck with it.

Levy did re-shape the academy about 10 years ago, when we brought in Arnesen who knew how Academies in the Netherlands were set up, we also brought in Ricardo Moniz, who taught our youth coaches the most up to date technique/skills training around. It takes time for these types of implementation to take into effect and were are now starting to reap the benefits with players like Kane, Bentaleb, Mason, and Pritchard and we have players with even more potential in Onomah, Carter-Vickers and Walker-Peters and we have players younger then them with even more potential in Edwards, Oakley-Booth and Roles.