The beginning of the end...

[scat1620]

And I think that the players, we have should be playing better than they have.
To a man we have been mediocre at best.
Pochs mood hasnt helped infact may have created it

I agree. I think the quality of the squad hasn't been maintained/improved in recent years (Levy definitely has a chunk of blame to take for this, and maybe Poch does too, albeit it's hard to tell without reliable inside info); and I also think that in recent months Poch hasn't been making the most out of the resources he does have.

Both Poch and Levy have been overseeing the footballing side (and things that directly affect the footballing side) of the club, and if - as seems to be the common consensus - we think we're struggling then they both have their share of responsibility for that outcome.

 

[dossett]

You missed my brilliant pun

Ah! apocholypse. I see what you did there. Belatedly.

 

[Ronwol196061]

Do you remember the games leading up to the fin

I agree. I think the quality of the squad hasn't been maintained/improved in recent years (Levy definitely has a chunk of blame to take for this, and maybe Poch does too, albeit it's hard to tell without reliable inside info); and I also think that in recent months Poch hasn't been making the most out of the resources he does have.

Both Poch and Levy have been overseeing the footballing side (and things that directly affect the footballing side) of the club, and if - as seems to be the common consensus - we think we're struggling then they both have their share of responsibility for that outcome.

Don't you think Poch should have taken some responsibility for the loss against Newcastle?

 

[Phomesy]

Ah! apocholypse. I see what you did there. Belatedly.

I feel there needs to be Fry from Futurama image here

 

[scat1620]

Don't you think Poch should have taken some responsibility for the loss against Newcastle?

Ron, I've never exchanged posts with you directly before tonight and so I've not previously been quite up to speed on the rapid growth of your reputation on SC for involving yourself in bewildering conversations, but I think I'm starting to get the picture: it's like you didn't even read the post of mine that you just quoted?

To answer your question (again), yes, I do think Poch should take a lot of responsibility for the Newcastle shitshow. Here's a different post saying the same thing.

 

[sausage]

I think the quality of the squad hasn't been maintained/improved in recent years (Levy definitely has a chunk of blame to take for this, and maybe Poch does too, albeit it's hard to tell without reliable inside info);

I'm struggling to understand how you conclude our squad quality hasn't been maintained or improved??

 

[Kspur]

It's actually 4 ITKs:

ValYid - said Poch has lost the dressing room

Hercs - not quite as serious as that, but things aren't great behind the scenes

Ali Z - again, not a total disaster, but not the most settled dressing room

Trix - he hasn't lost the dressing room, but things are far from harmonious

Thank you, can be hard to keep up! ?

 

[morris25]

Didn't tripper say he wanted to get out as there were issues behind the scenes

 

[scat1620]

I'm struggling to understand how you conclude our squad quality hasn't been maintained or improved??

Off the top of my head, without having to spend more than a moment to organise my thoughts, the two points that first come to mind are:

1) I think the decision to sell Walker with 4 years left on his contract (and to not successfully insist on getting Jaden Sancho in part-exchange if we accept the idea - which I'm not convinced of - that we absolutely had no choice but to sell him) was poor, and I think that every player who has played in his position since has been a substantial downgrade

2) I think that we've been negligent in placing as much reliance on Eriksen to be the sole creative engine in our team as we have for several years, to the point where he has been played every week without rest or competition for his place and his form - and our form as a team - has suffered as a result.

They're the two biggies for me: I have more thoughts on why I think the squad has been on the decline prior to this summer's signings, but I'm already on my fourth paragraph of a post I intended to knock out in 30 seconds and it's a bit late in the evening for me to go fully into where I think the problems were/are, so I'll cry off with just those two for now.

 

[walton]

A totally justified and legitimate viewpoint; those claiming it as knee jerk need to dry their eyes and look up the definition.

I think ultimately it comes down to what we consider success. Is a CL final good enough? Is that better than a league cup? Is regular top 4 good enough? Or is all this tarnished if we’re not playing the kind of football we want/expect. For me, it certainly feels like we dragged ourselves through last season on spirit (and some good fortune), which is both encouraging given how this is something that’s been perceived as lacking in the past, but also depressing as it clearly was never going to be sustainable.

We seem to have lost so much of our mojo, despite relatively changing in terms of personnel; does this fall at Poch’s feet? Who knows. It’s late. Night!

 

[eddiev14]

Has JJ passed any form of comment on this yet? Slightly concerned and it’d be interesting if he had any insight.

 

[Ronwol196061]

Ron, I've never exchanged posts with you directly before tonight and so I've not previously been quite up to speed on the rapid growth of your reputation on SC for involving yourself in bewildering conversations, but I think I'm starting to get the picture: it's like you didn't even read the post of mine that you just quoted?

To answer your question (again), yes, I do think Poch should take a lot of responsibility for the Newcastle shitshow. Here's a different post saying the same thing.

From what I read you were talking in general and in general yes they both have to take responsibility as it's difficult to separate who did what who wanted who etc. But just taking the Newcastle game alone. It's simple. Poch controlled who played he made subs,is this one even Poch and Levy. Poch managed the game.
But he made the whole thing about decisions he had no control over.
That's what I meant about responsibility. Infact if we had been playing over our heads before certainly this season we have been playing below our heads

 

[sidford]

It's actually 4 ITKs:

ValYid - said Poch has lost the dressing room

Hercs - not quite as serious as that, but things aren't great behind the scenes

Ali Z - again, not a total disaster, but not the most settled dressing room

Trix - he hasn't lost the dressing room, but things are far from harmonious

Given that Rose, eriksen, Toby and aurier all seem to want to leave then is it a surprise that the dressing room isn't great at the minute? Each one of them have mates at the club so they won't feel great seeing the situation a mate is in etc
Once the window is closed then hopefully things will settle down where say for eriksen will be told he's staying till summer so buckle down or it's the kids for you etc if that happens plus the newbies getting settled then could well see the good times return.

 

[Ronwol196061]

And, Scat instead of going somewhat by my 'reputation' I hope over a period of time I can have conversations with you and others here where I can discuss some if the views and I'm happy if you challenge them with reason.
I've mentioned that I think Poch should have been stronger with Levy about what he needed to be successful. I believe he had leverage only because it would cost Levy much more money in the long run. People talk about Levy not backing the manager. It's hard to know where the truth lies but I do believe Poch could have put his job on the line to get what he needed. In that way he would be taking responsibility. As a
valued manager, with Levy or without he could have made that clear. He isn't simply a worker. In the concept of supply and demand there are very few top line managers.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Last season’s failing can definitely be attributed in part to Levy’s inability to refresh the squad last summer.

The loss to Newcastle is 100% on Pochettino. The team he fielded should been able to dismantle Newcastle and win home and away to 16 sides in this division. That it failed so spectacularly is either down to tactics, coaching or motivation. None of these are attributable to Levy.

I personally believe we’re not anywhere near crisis point, and the international break provides opportunity to regroup and move forward, so I’m not waving the white hanky yet. Pochettino has banked more than enough goodwill with me at least. However, that will change quickly if we’re approaching October watching the same awful football with more results like Sunday’s.

 

[Dougal]

Spent a bit of time looking at the results of last season and recalling the games. There were a lot more fine margins than people are allowing for here and the summer spending should be given a chance to rectify those once we get the next few days out of the way.

Some examples from my recollection...

United (H) De Gea - Man of the match
Bournemouth (A) Travers - Man of the Match and 2 sendings off
Liverpool & Chelsea (A) killer late own goals
Man City (A) played well but hungover from the week and City wanted it more
Chelsea in the cup - lost on pens after what would have been a victory on away goals the season before

Unforgivable defeats
Burnley (A)
Southampton (A)
West Ham (H) - Long range shot comes off


Call them excuses or whatever, I don’t care, but with the Champions League run going on as well as our Stadium move there were plenty of distractions and we were lacking that extra 10%. Even in our wins there were a lot of late goals.

Collectively it was a shitshow. Individually there are things that can be fixed.

Fresh slate time from a September 2nd. For players, management and fans alike. We need to pull it together to make sure when there is a fine margin we’re on the right side of it and not get distracted by all this Jose/losing the dressing room bollocks.

 

[Timberwolf]

I'm not really very worried about the man, the individual Pochettino leaving. On one hand everybody knows I've never been his biggest fan, on the other hand I think him guiding the club to several consecutive CLs is admirable. But I'm not worried about that one person. What I am worried about if he leaves is, what comes after?

What does a post Pochettino Spurs look like?

I can't foresee it but I can line up some of the more or less plausible scenarios.

1) Several players leave too, some on a free, the club is left with big holes and little cash, and the rebuild is almost impossible. More "it is an transition season, we must be patient".

2) ENIC don't care much for the fork in the road, see their work as complete and sell the club. This might mark an end to me caring, depending on who the new owner would be.

3) Levy thinks he can master this new chapter of the club and hires a controversial manager. At the very least we will be guaranteed some drama and entertainment.

4) Levy embarks on yet another manager project who is intended for a long reign and given impossible targets and no funds to achieve it. AVB and Pochettino meets over a bottle of red wine and laughs at the poor sucker who now is the next project manager.

I worry for where we are a year from now. I alluded to this already in May, but I wonder if what's behind is as good as it gets.

I think those are all a bit doom and gloom.

If Poch were to leave (which I'm not condoning) we'd aim to get the best manager we could, and if they proved to be a good fit, then plenty of players would stay and there would likely be reinvestment. Levy will always be "different" but the club tried its best to drop 70M+ on Dybala this summer - we're far from Kronke/Ashley levels of cynicism yet. After investing so much in the stadium I think the club will be desperate to maintain it's status at the top table. We won't spend City/Utd money but nor will we be penny pinching every summer.

Even if we picked the wrong manager, it's not like our players can just disappear. A fair chunk of them (Alli, Kane, Moura, Ndombele, Lo Celso (surely), Sess, Winks, Davies, Sanchez) are tied down until 2024 or 2025 while Son is signed until 2023 and in the current market it would be very difficult for them to leave. Whatever happens over the next 2/3 years we'll have a core of very talented players that we will no doubt add to, and if, god forbid, a Kane or a Son were to leave, we'd have a metric fuckton of money to reinvest.

I agree that if we lose Poch it would likely lead to a downturn in our fortunes, but who knows? If we brought in someone like Allegri we might even push on.

 

[ziggy]

Didn't tripper say he wanted to get out as there were issues behind the scenes

Yeah behind the scenes there is a forum called SC where nearly everyone hated him

 

[Amo]

Didn't tripper say he wanted to get out as there were issues behind the scenes

Yep.

 

[jimmyh]

IMHO I think the troubles we are seeing at the can be traced back to the decision to play an unfit and not ready Harry Kane in the champions league final. I think this sent a message to the rest of the squad that what he has said all along about players who are in form play.

If this shit isn't sorted out really quickly and stops making shit excuses about an unsettled squad he will be gone very soon.

Think he needs to reinstate Jan and if he thinks there's a problem fucking sort it your the manager and that's part of your job never complaining about the transfer window get it sorted. It was the same last year at the start. Get your shit together or just go you seem to be laying all the foundations with all the excuses.