Shades of the old Modric debate...should Dembele be the central attacking midfielder in the 4 5 1?

[stevenqoz]

Thinking about Dembele he looks to me to be the ideal man to play in behind the main forward in our version of 4 5 1. He beats people for fun, has good movement and would scare the opposition to death running at them on the edge of the box. It would probably mean that we have Sandro and Parker behind him with Bale and Lennon either side. I am aware that some on here(BC) made a similar case for Modric to play further forward. What do people think? I bring this up because neither Sig nor Dempsey seem up to the job they have been asked to do.
........................Lloris
..........Walker Caulker Vert BAE
........... Sandro Parker/ Hudd
............Lennon Dembele Bale
................. Ade/Defoe

 

[dynamoSpurs]

he is already isnt he?

 

[YiddoBirdy]

I prefer Dembele as a box to box midfielder myself.

 

[stevenqoz]

No, imo we have tended to play
..................x
.....x......x........x......x
......Sandro Dembele
Lennon Dempsey /Sig....Bale
..............Defoe

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Dempsey & Sig would look much better with Ade up top

Dembele is a rabbit in headlights anywhere near the box, better deeper,interchanging with Sandro with 1 dropping and 1 punching on

Interested to see who plays where when Parker is fit!

 

[YiddoBirdy]

GK: Lloris
RB: Walker
CB: Verts
CB: Kaboul
LB: BAE
CDM: Sandro
CM: Dembele
RW: Lennon
CAM: Sig/Dempsey
LW: Bale
ST: Adebayor

I think this is our strongest team well until January

 

[AJW]

GK: Lloris
RB: Walker
CB: Verts
CB: Kaboul
LB: BAE
CDM: Sandro
CM: Dembele
RW: Lennon
CAM: Sig/Dempsey
LW: Bale
ST: Adebayor

I think this is our strongest team well until January

And I can't thing of any players we can /will realistically sign to improve that team in January. Weak link is CAM and we aren't going to sign another one having signed 2 for 12 million in the summer.

 

[stevenqoz]

That CAM player, whoever it is, needs something a bit special in their toolbox....Sig/Dempsey just seem so vanilla

 

[Locotoro]

Dembele's main quality is that he wins the ball and breaks forward into acres of space, often starting off counter attacking moves. The problem with playing him further forward is that he will have less space to break into and could be less effective. Despite scoring on his debut, his goalscoring record isn't that great and he would end up becoming a ball carrier and not much else.

I agree with those that say Dempsey and Siggi would probably perform better behind Ade, especially Dempsey. He is very adept at picking up space in the box and getting in on those second balls. Defoe, for me, doesnt get into the box enough at all whereas Ade is very capable of getting the ball with his back to goal waiting for the defence to collapse in on him and laying it off to a free man for the shot on goal.

I can see why people think Dempsey hasnt played well but in the matches where we have pushed the team back into their own box he has made some very good runs into the box for goalscoring chances. The problem is that he's not a natural playmaker and does most of his work off the ball.

 

[double0]

Dembele and Sandro have formed a good partnership as the base midfield players in a 4231. Dembele actually is very good in the tackle and has the strength a change of pace to burst from that deeper position.

If only we hadn't sold Van De Vaart that was a big mistake there wasn't any indication of him wanting to leave like Modric we would have been much better with Sandro Dembele Lennon Van De Vaart Bale Adebayor is as good as any in EPL.

 

[Hitch]

I think Dembele's found his calling in that deeper role. He can be world class in that position but he lacks the vision and end product to reach the gold standard higher up the pitch. That is borne out by his previous history. Granted he'd probably do a better job there than Sig or Dempsey right now, but we need him where he currently plays. Signing a quality AM in the new window is a must if we're to have any chance of making the top 4.

I don't want to see us move to a Sandro/Parker axis when Scotty returns either. Far too negative and lacking in creativity.

 

[don1]

id like to see
sandro parker
dembele
lennon bale
ade

something like that

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Doesn't score enough goals to play in the number 10 role

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Doesn't score enough goals to play in the number 10 role

This. And neither did Modric.

People need to get away from the fact that we must have 2 destroyers in the middle of the park.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thinking about Dembele he looks to me to be the ideal man to play in behind the main forward in our version of 4 5 1. He beats people for fun, has good movement and would scare the opposition to death running at them on the edge of the box. It would probably mean that we have Sandro and Parker behind him with Bale and Lennon either side. I am aware that some on here(BC) made a similar case for Modric to play further forward. What do people think? I bring this up because neither Sig nor Dempsey seem up to the job they have been asked to do.
........................Lloris
..........Walker Caulker Vert BAE
........... Sandro Parker/ Hudd
............Lennon Dembele Bale
................. Ade/Defoe

I think when Parker is fit that Dembele should play further forward. As per above but without Hudd. I would even consider playing Dembele in the Lennon position as he could dribble inside and shoot a la Hulk/Porto mode and it was give us a better balance of creative skills as Bale is more about wide/outside pure power. Sigurddson (until we sign someone better) could maybe play centrally and that would at least give us three different types in that forward attacking group:

----------------Lloris
Naighton Kaboul Vert Ekotto
--------Parker----Sandro
Dembele-----Sig--------Bale
--------Adebayor

The alternative is we switch to a 433, with Parker/Sandro/Dembele (until we can sign Moutinho then it could be Moutinho/Sandro/Dembele) which would keep Dembele in the middle three but allow him more freedom because Parker and Sandro would provide better back up/insurance.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I think Dembele's found his calling in that deeper role. He can be world class in that position but he lacks the vision and end product to reach the gold standard higher up the pitch. That is borne out by his previous history. Granted he'd probably do a better job there than Sig or Dempsey right now, but we need him where he currently plays. Signing a quality AM in the new window is a must if we're to have any chance of making the top 4.

I don't want to see us move to a Sandro/Parker axis when Scotty returns either. Far too negative and lacking in creativity.

I've marked this agree for the first paragraph, but I don't agree with the second part at all, some of our best performances last year were with Scottie and Sandro as the axis.

 

[StartingPrice]

What is needed is time and patience.
We are still deep i a period of transition. It is only five minutes from we won at Old Trafford and everyone was going fap, fap fap crazy for AVB and his new system. And now, because of some disappointing results, with six or seven 1st teamers missing, and Sigurdsso/Demspey still not to have played with type of striker they need (and that is Adebayor and is not Jermaine Defoe), it is all a major disaster and drastic changes are needed.

Dembélé looks to be different but as effective as (and in some ways more dynamic than) Modric, and already, in knee-jerks-ville, we need to alter his position as a reaction to the fact that Sigurdsson and Dempsey haven't set the Prem alight,and not really anything innate within Dembélé's game. I can already name at least two instances where I am absolutely certain that Dempsey would have scored if Defoe had made the easy and obvious pass rather than choosing (surprisingly ) to shift and shoot even though there was a wall of defenders before him and to no avail (surprisingly ).

Patience is a virtue.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What is needed is time and patience.
We are still deep i a period of transition. It is only five minutes from we won at Old Trafford and everyone was going fap, fap fap crazy for AVB and his new system. And now, because of some disappointing results, with six or seven 1st teamers missing, and Sigurdsso/Demspey still not to have played with type of striker they need (and that is Adebayor and is not Jermaine Defoe), it is all a major disaster and drastic changes are needed.

Dembélé looks to be different but as effective as (and in some ways more dynamic than) Modric, and already, in knee-jerks-ville, we need to alter his position as a reaction to the fact that Sigurdsson and Dempsey haven't set the Prem alight,and not really anything innate within Dembélé's game. I can already name at least two instances where I am absolutely certain that Dempsey would have scored if Defoe had made the easy and obvious pass rather than choosing (surprisingly ) to shift and shoot even though there was a wall of defenders before him and to no avail (surprisingly ).

Patience is a virtue.

I agree that patience is needed. But I don't think it is just knee jerk to want to place Dembele further forward. IMO wherever he plays he needs to get his head up a little better. But he is good at running at dribbling at people, strong on the ball. That can be an asset anywhere on the pitch but I think with our current limitations it could be more of an asset a little further forward where defenders hate this kind of thing. He's not really No.10 material, but hell, neither is Sigurdsson and Dempsey even less than Sigurdsson and we've played both of them there.

For me Dembele could play any one of five positions. At Porto Hulk was deployed outside right because he contains similar (but not the same) attributes to Dembele. Strong on the ball, decent dribbling (Demebele is better IMO) and the ability to cut inside and unleash a shot (Hulk better). They are different types I know, but I think when Parker's fit it might be worth considering, because he could not be any less productive than Lennon and IMO would give our attack something different than the pacey directness, with little craft that Lennon, Bale and Defoe all offer now.

Dembele has always been an attacking midfielder, and even a striker previously.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In an ideal world we sign Moutinho and a crafty attacker and would play:

Moutinho ------Sandro -----Dembele

Dzagoev--------Adebayor-----Bale


But until then, and with Parker fit, wouldn't mind seeing Dembele pushed further forward.

 

[StartingPrice]

I agree that patience is needed. But I don't think it is just knee jerk to want to place Dembele further forward. IMO wherever he plays he needs to get his head up a little better. But he is good at running at dribbling at people, strong on the ball. That can be an asset anywhere on the pitch but I think with our current limitations it could be more of an asset a little further forward where defenders hate this kind of thing. He's not really No.10 material, but hell, neither is Sigurdsson and Dempsey even less than Sigurdsson and we've played both of them there.

For me Dembele could play any one of five positions. At Porto Hulk was deployed outside right because he contains similar (but not the same) attributes to Dembele. Strong on the ball, decent dribbling (Demebele is better IMO) and the ability to cut inside and unleash a shot (Hulk better). They are different types I know, but I think when Parker's fit it might be worth considering, because he could not be any less productive than Lennon and IMO would give our attack something different than the pacey directness, with little craft that Lennon, Bale and Defoe all offer now.

Dembele has always been an attacking midfielder, and even a striker previously.

TBH, when, after the United victory folk were saying we don't miss Modric with Dembélé playing deeper, and after two disappointing results (that he didn't even play in), calling for him to be moved forward on aco**** of the perceived lack of form of Sigurdsson and Dempsey* it pretty much does generally feel like a knee-jerk reaction. That doesn't mean that everyone who thinks he and the team would benefit from moving forward is being knee-jerk, I am well-aware that you suggested several times that Modric should play in the hole. I did once believe the same, and felt that there was often a problem in games with VDV and Modric taking up the same spaces and positions. But, on the whole, I felt that Modric was better sitting deeper, using his vision to orchestrate play and having space to move forward into.

In regard to Dembélé I feel that this is even more true due to the added bonus of his more robust defensive game. To me, he is at his best when he has space to run into between the lines. And you've said it yourself, he isn't really a number 10.

The main issue, really, is Sigurdsson/Dempsey and their form (I'm not trying to obfuscate, neither has been sufficient, so far). But that is where I have a problem: we all know that hard as Defoe is trying, and much as we have seen a little improvement, he just isn't really suited to playing as a lone striker. So I feel that allowing things to settle, in general (seen as we are in a transitional phase), and waiting to see how both of them perform when partnered regularly with Adebayor, before we totally write either of them off. Sigurdsson so clearly needs that type of partnership, is still young and is stepping up. And Demspey would be absolutely fine as a back up utility striker - and, as I said, with a more intelligent and less selfish partner would, I have no doubt, have a healthy looking goal tally already. And we all know that that is the problem with Defoe - what you gain from his individual goal tally you lose from a reduction in the contribution from the rest of the team.

I believe Sandro/Dembélé can form one of the most dynamic central partnerships in football, and see little reason to break it up for a short-term fix or to fulfill a role that, you are right, he could do, but someone else could do so much better while many of his strengths would be neglected. Much better to wait to January and if Sigurdsson hasn't come good, and if Dempsey isn't functioning well as a third choice utility striker (which is what he should be), or just because we can get improvements, buy someone in, IMHO.

The vital thing for me, BC, is that you wanted a proper tactically minded coach - now we have one, and he is only just starting to get to work. I think you need to give him time, rather than suggesting pretty radical solutions to possibly relatively minor problems (for instance, we will only see how serious Sigurdsson's form is after he gets some time with a proper lone-forward). By all accounts (and from what I have seen) he has some very good young talent to work with, I want to see him do that work.

In an ideal world we sign Moutinho and a crafty attacker and would play:

Moutinho ------Sandro -----Dembele

Dzagoev--------Adebayor-----Bale


But until then, and with Parker fit, wouldn't mind seeing Dembele pushed further forward.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly, and if Levy could pull that off he would be back in Dan Levy -demigod territory