Ratings: Saints VS Spurs

[Legend10]

The game was nearing completion. As oft happens in these circumstances the team losing are having a go, the momentum is with them and the team winning are inclined to hang onto what they've got. It's the usual psychological reaction to cling to your lead as the clock ticks and the winning post is in sight. Soton are not a long ball side, they like to play on the floor and now they've got an extra striker on, but still they try and work the ball into good midfield positions if they can before delivering the ball into the strikers.
Having someone who will occupy that midfield space and harry and chase the oppo (Holtby) is better than having a striker who at the best of times doesn't get on the ball much and thinks only about scoring (out of interest how many times did Defoe touch the ball?). Or having someone who will sit in front of the back 4 (Capoue) and will occupy the space their best player (Lallana) occupies as well as breaking up play and using the ball well and retaining possession (thus denying them the chance to score as they don't have the ball) is also better to me. It makes sense. It does to you as well I think.

Firstly let me acknowledge again that I would have introduced Capoue for Soldado. However what I don't get is this attitude (not saying you) that if a manager does something different to what that person wanted then he's naive, stupid or whatever else. Let's get something straight even if it is the wrong decision and who can really say that, then people with the knowledge, experience and know how of Sherwood, Ramsey and probably to a lesser extent Ferdinand didn't make the change through naivety or stupidity, they done it with a reason in mind.

Although not my choice I still see the logic in it, to remove one of the 2 up front and replace with a DM would fully invite Southampton on to us and would as a passing team have afforded them more time and room to build from the back, likely in the process to at the very minimum achieve more and better crossing positions, it would also have maximised the chances for Southampton to be the team picking up all of our clearances. Being bold and resisting the DM temptation and going with the front player allowed us to compete for clearances and I believe helped us to retain possession when we got it. Ade in particular and to a lesser degree JD were still able to drop off the front and help the midfield players out, in contrast I don't think without the 2nd body up we would have got a midfield player forward to help us hold the ball. I thought the decision was brave for a new manager and was anything but naive, in fact I thought it was ballsy and seeing as 1 scrappy corner apart Southampton created nothing late on And never managed to get up a head of steam allowing us to see out the game relatively comfortably rather than in some cases hysterical accusations of naïvety it merits at least a respectful tip of the hat!

 

[Legend10]

That City team is far superior to ours in every position. You might argue for Ade over Negredo, the rest don't even come close. And even playing with such great players they're reduced to trying to outscore the oppo away which they've struggled with this season. I think you're arguing for us L10.

You're not going to get an argument from me about City's players being better than ours, quite simply they are. However do we have the right type and quality of player to play a similar system? For me the answer is that we absolutely do and would do very well with it, whilst not having City's quality we still do have plenty. On a personal level for me to be fully comfortable with it the 2 CM players would be more defensively minded, I like what Sandro & Dembele can offer in this system and really importantly whilst it allows us 2 forwards & 2 creative midfield players it should never leave us with a defensive block of less than 5 even when we can get a block of 4 or even 5 into offence, plus not only can we get players into the box we can also surround it to recover clearances!

What I don't get is people thinking anything that resembles 442 is Mike Bassetesque, and whilst talking City I think there problems away are more attitude related than system related.

 

[yanno]

Firstly let me acknowledge again that I would have introduced Capoue for Soldado. However what I don't get is this attitude (not saying you) that if a manager does something different to what that person wanted then he's naive, stupid or whatever else. Let's get something straight even if it is the wrong decision and who can really say that, then people with the knowledge, experience and know how of Sherwood, Ramsey and probably to a lesser extent Ferdinand didn't make the change through naivety if stupidity, they done it with a reason in mind.

For the amusement of SC, about 5 minutes from the end, Sherwood was standing in the technical area when Ferdinand approached him and started bellowing in an animated fashion in his ear. Next thing I saw was Defoe taking his bib off and the numbers for the change being given to the fourth official.

Like most of SC, I would have put Capoue on for Soldado at that stage. Or even for Ade who was clearly shagged and quite literally spent about 3 minutes getting back onside after one late run.

However, given how many times we'd got in behind their snail speed CBs in the second half, the plan presumably was that a fresh Defoe would also run free, get a chance and kill the game off.

It didn't happen like that.

But we still won.

 

[scat1620]

Firstly let me acknowledge again that I would have introduced Capoue for Soldado. However what I don't get is this attitude (not saying you) that if a manager does something different to what that person wanted then he's naive, stupid or whatever else. Let's get something straight even if it is the wrong decision and who can really say that, then people with the knowledge, experience and know how of Sherwood, Ramsey and probably to a lesser extent Ferdinand didn't make the change through naivety if stupidity, they done it with a reason in mind.

Although not my choice I still see the logic in it, to remove one of the 2 up front and replace with a DM would fully invite Southampton on to us and would as a passing team have afforded them more time and room to build from the back, likely in the process to at the very minimum achieve more and better crossing positions, it would also have maximised the chances for Southampton to be the team picking up all of our clearances. Being bold and resisting the DM temptation and going with the front player allowed us to compete for clearances and I believe helped us to retain possession when we got it. Ade in particular and to a lesser degree JD were still able to drop off the front and help the midfield players out, in contrast I don't think without the 2nd body up we would have got a midfield player forward to help us hold the ball. I thought the decision was brave for a new manager and was anything but naive, in fact I thought it was ballsy and seeing as 1 scrappy corner apart Southampton created nothing late on And never managed to get up a head of steam allowing us to see out the game relatively comfortably rather than in some cases hysterical accusations of naïvety it merits at least a respectful tip of the hat!

Agree with a lot of this. Like L10, Steve and seemingly everyone else, I think I would've brought on Capoue rather than Defoe if Soldado was coming off, but at the end of the day it was a change that worked and should be respected as such, even if it's not something that we would have chosen to do.

There is no boiler-plate 'correct' answer for how to handle the situation of holding on to a slim lead for the latter stages of a game: you either do the right thing that means you see out the win, or you don't do the right thing and you drop points. The result is the ultimate voice that settles the argument, not a line of hypothetical reasoning. I remember plenty of times in the Jol reign where we failed to hold on to leads by bringing on a defender for a midfielder/attacker towards the end of a game, so it cuts both ways. We don't live in a parallel universe: the final-whistle outcome of a call made during an individual game is the only true judge as to whether the right decision was made, and the best managers are the ones who get that decision right more than they get it wrong, whichever way they choose.

 

[Legend10]

Agree with a lot of this. Like L10, Steve and seemingly everyone else, I think I would've brought on Capoue rather than Defoe if Soldado was coming off, but at the end of the day it was a change that worked and should be respected as such, even if it's not something that we would have chosen to do.

There is no boiler-plate 'correct' answer for how to handle the situation of holding on to a slim lead for the latter stages of a game: you either do the right thing that means you see out the win, or you don't do the right thing and you drop points. The result is the ultimate voice that settles the argument, not a line of hypothetical reasoning. I remember plenty of times in the Jol reign where we failed to hold on to leads by bringing on a defender for a midfielder/attacker towards the end of a game, so it cuts both ways. We don't live in a parallel universe: the final-whistle outcome of a call made during an individual game is the only true judge as to whether the right decision was made, and the best managers are the ones who get that decision right more than they get it wrong, whichever way they choose.

Exactly, there's more than 1 way to skin a cat, or win a game of football, part of our problem IMHO is that we've only found one way to play. There's no reason why we can't use that way again when the occasion suits, but we surely have to have more in our locker.

Regarding your point on the substitutions, it is about decisions, some work dome don't, it's just about what you perceive to give you the best chance.

 

[Mr Pink]

Another thing to consider is the psychological message a substitution can send. A negative one can lift the opposition and have the affect of compounding what you're actually trying to prevent....ie sitting deeper, inviting them on to you etc...

 

[Legend10]

By push on you mean hopefully match AVB's win ratio and ppg I assume ? Me too. Genuinely.

I don't have an issue with Sherwood per se. I'm not anti him. Managerially none of us have a clue what he's about. But I'm not going to pretend everything he did was right either. Just like I didn't with AVB.

I like that Adebayor is back in the fold, I am a huge fan as everyone knows. I like that we definitely seemed to get more bodies in the box (although part of that may be that we had 2 strikers). I like the fact that he trusted Bentaleb, I actually wanted him to start and got slammed for it.

But I think our central midfield was weak, I think our pressing of the ball was piss poor, we had far too little of the ball overall and the game was too open. And the last sub was whack. All just my opinion. Others are available.

What I mostly saw was no discernible new tactical approach, apart from maybe sitting a bit deeper (?) and less pressure on the ball, just a change of shape and personnel deployment. But I accept it's two games in, so that kind of thing may take a while to become evident or discernible, if it exists at all. I'm not judging Sherwood's reign yet just calling what I see ad hoc.

The next 2 weeks will be fascinating, 4 huge games in 10 days with quite a few injury problems, I think we're going to see a bit of everything and everybody, could be a classic success or a complete catastrophe!

Ah the fun of it!

 

[steve]

My own position is that I am sorry he is still at the club. I thought we would have been as well off to leave Soldado on.

I wasn't crazy about our starting line up. But the thing that excited the bejesus out of me was that Soldado and Chadli actually looked like footballers yesterday and we created lots of chances.

Yeah agree with that. I will never be a fan of his and wouldn't be sad if he left.

It's good to see. Chadli could really be an important player for us, I'm still not convinced he believes enough yet but when/if he does he could be massive. Soldado needs some goals soon. IF Sherwood gets this right (given the chance) we could still finish top 4. His biggest problem will be picking 11 players every week from our squad and now he can add Bentaleb to that. But Adebayor if he stays fit and interested might be the difference.

Kaboul
Verts
Paulinho
Sandro
Capoue
Townsend
Lennon
Holtby

None of the above featured yesterday and there's talk of Carroll and BAE coming back. I think now we'll finish 5th or 6th but Sherwood could get the job and surprise us all. Levy needs to make some sort of decision soon with so many games coming up.

 

[lennon4england]

Arsenal going for the Chocolate Teapot midfield tonight.

 

[markieboy]

I can certainly understand why Tim brought Defoe on.....away from home if you take off a striker and bring on a more defensive player it invites the home team to really have a go for the last couple of minutes.
Its mind games..............its saying if you want to pile forward,we ain't bothered,we can handle it and hit you on the break.
Anyone who watched could also see that Sherwood knew precisely how Southampton were going to play.
Look at how at corners and set pieces he had Adebayor marking at the back post,Southampton like to play deep crosses and wait in the middle for the ball to be headed back in.
If Tim felt that his formation was the best way to counteract the threat from Southampton,fair play to him because it worked.
Do I think that he will play the same way against every team?
No,I don't.

 

[only1waddle]

I can certainly understand why Tim brought Defoe on.....away from home if you take off a striker and bring on a more defensive player it invites the home team to really have a go for the last couple of minutes.
Its mind games..............its saying if you want to pile forward,we ain't bothered,we can handle it and hit you on the break.
Anyone who watched could also see that Sherwood knew precisely how Southampton were going to play.
Look at how at corners and set pieces he had Adebayor marking at the back post,Southampton like to play deep crosses and wait in the middle for the ball to be headed back in.
If Tim felt that his formation was the best way to counteract the threat from Southampton,fair play to him because it worked.
Do I think that he will play the same way against every team?
No,I don't.

Given time i would like us to adopt a shelling and pressing approach like Dortmund do if we are to use such a tactic to see out games, coaching a squad to be organised and effective with men behind the ball, i enjoy watching teams close out games methodically, with shape and purpose, nothing in between.
Given the bench options we have i think Holtby was the logical choice, but can understand Tim wanting to keep on the front foot, he has nothing to lose at the minute.

 

[ItsBoris]

As I've written twice now, this scenario is virtually impossible because of the balanced schedule. Those teams won't have 'the same results in the second half of the season' - e.g., they still have to play each other. I have a spreadsheet that analyses every year of the Premiersship since its inception. Your prediction would take a freak set of results and would produce a freakish final table.

For the third time: if Man Utd were to finish in 8th place with 68 points, the team in 9th place (or thereabouts) would have to be roughly 25 points (or more) behind them. That's the nature of the way the schedule is arranged. Those gaps just don't happen. The Premiership is much too competitive for that and it would be a bizarre statistical abnormality.

It is not unusual for there to be a number of teams garnering up to 2 points per game until December, but it is unknown for more than 2 or 3 teams to finish the season on 2 points per game.

After 19 games every team has played every other team, so they certainly good get the same results/number of points in the 2nd half of the season. Most of the time there is little discrepancy between the results a team picks up in the first 19 games compared to the next 19.

Southampton are currently on course for 53 points so they would be 15 behind United. The next would be Stoke with 47 points, so 21 behind 68.

There hasn't been this kind of depth in quality at the top of the league for a long time which will be reflected in the points required for 4th this season. I mean Liverpool finished 7th last season. They're top of the league and ripped us a new one at home, so that shows how many good teams there are this season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

MOTD2:

That goal was an awful team goal to concede.

Rose had a very poor first half as well, gave the ball away a few times and gifts them a great chance not long after the goal.

Funny moment was when we equalised, the southampton fans cheer thinking Adebayor's over hit his pass to Soldado, 3 seconds later the balls in the net.

Our second goal Rose gets doubly lucky. Even the initial pass to Eriksen is poor and actually goes to their guy who inadvertently deflects to Eriksen who then plays Rose in who again fails to hit the ball anywhere near the three guys waiting for a ball.

It's actually Rose dawdling deeper than everyone else, unnecessarily, that causes Dawson to be not able to play Lellana offside and to have to go with him, which he is then very slow off the mark to do, and unfortunately I have to say, Bentaleb has allowed Lambert a free run off him to score. Another piss poor team goal which mirrored their first, they start in their third corner work the ball over to our our third opposite corner and then through the middle with almost no-one getting within a couple of yards. Adebayor and Soldado just stand and watch as their guy brings it out of defence. Fucking awful pair of goals.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Martin Keown "It's the best premier league in a long time".

 

[Legend10]

Martin Keown "It's the best premier league in a long time".

Did he say in terms of quality or that there's a whole bunch of teams locked together?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Did he say in terms of quality or that there's a whole bunch of teams locked together?

Good question. I assumed he meant quality, but thinking about it now I'm not sure.

 

[Mr Pink]

Good question. I assumed he meant quality, but thinking about it now I'm not sure.

I think he meant in terms of it being so competitive as opposed to the actual quality. That was my interpretation of it. I think even alluded to the lesser teams making more of a go of it - or something a long those lines.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

He had a nice old pop at Sherwood, too. Can't remember exactly what he said but I think he was implying that he'd been undermining AVB. It reminded me of Dalglish seemingly wanting Woy to fail at Liverpool.

 

[dudu]

Yeah who cares at the long term future of the club?
If you think Tim doesnt have a hidden agenda, your in for a shock.
Thats my opinion and i respect yours

As i do your dude. I dont not think he has an agenda per say - just not that he is the angel of death - we will see i guess...

 

[dudu]

Look, I don't mind that he put Bentaleb on, and I think we are probably reading too much into his explanation - I hope anyway. But it was bollocks, he knows Capoue as well as he knows Soldado, Chririches, Lamella and Eriksen, and he had no worries about putting them into the fray.

Personally I would have liked Bentaleb and Capoue out there in a 3 and then maybe Dembele wouldn't have looked like he was fighting Custer's last stand, and Eriksen and Lamella could have got forward a bit more and influenced the game a bit more, rather than spending 3/4 of their time chasing Lallana around.

All fair points.

I personally think Erikson influenced the game immensely from where he was actually. Granted he could have played a little more in the other teams half but in the second half especially he was making us tick..... 18 out of 18 passes completed.

If there is one thing we have been crying out for in our midfield its someone who can pass us out of the congestion two teams playing with 5 midfielders can bring. Im not saying we solved the problem but i was probably most impressed with CE's display on Sunday more than anyones as he played a very mature game and took the initiative in the role he was given

Maybe in time, when Sandro or Paulinho are fit we will have a more stable middle 2 or 3 and erikson will be able to push up and get involved with offensive play and he will shine there for us also.