guiltyparty
Well-Known Member
- Sep 21, 2005
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Except that it's learning curve not curb, but that would just be being picky
Proud
- Thread starter Robbiepope
- Start date
Except that it's learning curve not curb, but that would just be being picky
johnmc
New Member
- Sep 27, 2004
- 1,379
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Yes we are all disappointed at going out. But a penalty shoot out is down to a lot of luck on the day. We lost out, that's life. We should be pleased that we actually won the game at their place, no easy achievement. We could just as easily have folded and lost by a couple of goals. That showed strong character for me. What we must do now is move on, take this experience, and learn from it as a team. Under Ramos I am sure we can.
- Jun 5, 2004
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- Staff
- #43
because we didn't look like getting 2 goals in 'normal time' had they scored in normal time to go one up it would have been game over - in extra time we didn't have the legs to go gung ho - there was nothing wrong with our overall approach (of course certain things can be argued about - but basically Ramos and the team did a very professional job last night, up to the penalties at least) - it was a tremendous performance against the odds to win 1-0 over there
TheChosenOne
A dislike or neg rep = fat fingers
- Dec 13, 2005
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I ain't too sad now, played our arses off with what we had to do.
Or we could go back to playing 40 games per season, 38 prem & two cup rounds
like not so long ago.
Live and learn.
Or we could go back to playing 40 games per season, 38 prem & two cup rounds
like not so long ago.
Live and learn.
I understand what you're saying but, with respect, idlepete, I disagree.
My take is that Ramos tried to play wide, attacking, football in the first leg (which is why Gilberto was picked at LB), and PSV simply stopped us. We created very little at WHL, especially down the flanks, because PSV stopped our FBs getting out and Steed ended up coming inside to help out our CMs.
So, for the first time since taking over at Spurs, Don Juande sent out a team without wingers. I think his gameplan was to use Chimbo & Lee to mark PSV's wide strikers, and then outplay PSV in CM with our diamond formation. And that diamond became even more aggressive in the second half when Bent went up front with Keano, and Berba played in the hole.
I also think Ramos did gamble very aggressively: Bent for Lee and Lennon for King were very bold attacking moves.
Last night, we basically stopped PSV as comprehensively as they had shut us down at WHL. And created several good chances. If Bent had a bit more confidence (not his fault), he could easily have scored a winner. And Malbranque's screamer in the 119th minute would have beaten most keepers.
I'm gutted, but already looking forward to next season. With Hutton, Lennon, Steed, Gunter, Bale, Gilberto, and hopefully Diego Capel available for our flanks, Juande probably won't have to play a 4-1-2-1-2 in such circumstances. Last night, we had very few weapons down the flanks available to us.
Bring on the next campaign!
SpurSince57
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- Jan 20, 2006
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And beating PSV at their place was more than Arsenal managed last season.
RickyVilla
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- May 16, 2004
- 18,491
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I agree with you 100% there Mullers. We did not perform at all in my opinion and I don't believe there is anything to be proud of. The boys did not play to their full potential which was bitterly disappointing
guiltyparty
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- Sep 21, 2005
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TheChosenOne
A dislike or neg rep = fat fingers
- Dec 13, 2005
- 48,115
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Be careful, you will now be watched like a hawk - by me and quite a few others.
:grin::grin::grin:
tippspur59
Well-Known Member
- Aug 21, 2006
- 2,771
- 2,522
Gutted but proud would sum it up for me, now lets go on and put in a great finish to the season.Ramos will now have more time on the training ground with players so we should see that come through in the coming weeks.
sloth
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- Mar 7, 2005
- 9,018
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Oh ffs Mullers! You know your problem mate, it's you don't have any perspective. you say we played poorly over two legs, I say we played exceptionally well against a team who's game-plan was to frustrate, absorb and counter.
Maybe it's hard to see because it's tottenham we're talking about and we're, well, fantastic... The best... we have a clear moral superiority over every other team in the world and on our day we're better than Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man Utd all rolled into one... but let's pretend it was two other teams.
Imagine it was West Brom playing a top Premier League side. Now if you were a West Brom fan you might bemoan the fact that your team didn't play with the fluency and cutting edge your used to seeing week in week out in the Championship, you'd say your side played poorly and would have wiped the floor if they'd played their usual way. Everyone else would say, mate, that's the difference between playing Championship sides every week and the Premier League.
Back to us. We out-played the runaway league leaders in Holland in their own back-yard. We beat them 1-0. We lost 1-0 at home against an extremely well-drilled side who knew what to expect from us and had a plan to counter it. That they got lucky with the mistake from Gilberto only highlights their quality. We made a couple of mistakes and got punished for one, I don't think I remember a single mistake from them, the hall-mark of a team which wins titles.
On IdlePete's criticisms of Ramos I think you're disadvantaged in not having the full story. I don't either but i know there is one and it's not the one you have told. if you forced me to guess at ramos' reasoning I'd assume:
Hanibal (the Cartegenian not the psychopath) was one of the greatest generals to have lived, one of his famous victories involved playing up to his opponents expectations before revealing something quite different at the last minute.
He encouraged the Roman's to attack down the middle in the traditional style of warfare favoured at the time, the Roman's duly obliged as they knew their better drilled heavy infantry held the advantage over the Carteginians veterans.
Except Hannibal had not placed in his elite in the centre, he'd arranged his foreign auxillaries there but dressed them as his crack troops. Instead he'd placed them on his wings, with cavalry and light infantry kept in reserve. The Roman's attacked and inevitably the Carteginians centre gave ground, emboldened in the knowledge the enemy had nowhere to run (Hannibal had so arranged his troops that their backs were to a river) the Roman's crack troops pressed forward. Now though their auxillaries arranged on the wings were coming up against Hannibal's veterans and getting slaughtered, they got funneled into the gap their comrades had made down the centre and like the horns of a stag beetle Hanibal's forces encircled the Roman's who'd almost reached the river. Unexpectedly attacked from the side and behind and with no where to run they panicked, even seasoned soldiers threw down their arms and legged it. When the Carteginian reserves joined the fray catching the Roman cavalry completely by surprise it became a massacre. The larger Roman army was wiped out with the dead measured in the tens of thousands, Hannibal lost less than a thousand and of those it was only the foreign and raw recruits.
Apologies for the long-winded analogy, but here's the point. PSV were expecting us to attack down the wings, they were prepared to defend there and get at us through the centre, instead we loaded the centre and went at them directly and it threw them out of kilter, made them uncertain where the previous week they'd been full of confidence and known what they were doing. What is more Ramos had a very attacking bench. This meant that as the game got older and legs grew weary he could conjure width and pace. PSV grew incresingly frantic and our attacks progressively more penetrating. Perhaps we should have put away one of the earlier chances, but it was no surprise that the goal came late in the game, I suspect it was no surprise to Ramos either who's hall-mark is teams that play at a frenetic attacking pace from kick-off to final whistle. The result was job done.
Your wish that we'd just gone at them ala Martin Jol was precisely what they'd trained all week to defend against, it was the game plan which so effectively stifled us at WHL. Instead of criticism, Ramos deserves your admiration. And if not that then enough respect to try and puzzle it out, rather than your slightly glib analysis.
Maybe it's hard to see because it's tottenham we're talking about and we're, well, fantastic... The best... we have a clear moral superiority over every other team in the world and on our day we're better than Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man Utd all rolled into one... but let's pretend it was two other teams.
Imagine it was West Brom playing a top Premier League side. Now if you were a West Brom fan you might bemoan the fact that your team didn't play with the fluency and cutting edge your used to seeing week in week out in the Championship, you'd say your side played poorly and would have wiped the floor if they'd played their usual way. Everyone else would say, mate, that's the difference between playing Championship sides every week and the Premier League.
Back to us. We out-played the runaway league leaders in Holland in their own back-yard. We beat them 1-0. We lost 1-0 at home against an extremely well-drilled side who knew what to expect from us and had a plan to counter it. That they got lucky with the mistake from Gilberto only highlights their quality. We made a couple of mistakes and got punished for one, I don't think I remember a single mistake from them, the hall-mark of a team which wins titles.
On IdlePete's criticisms of Ramos I think you're disadvantaged in not having the full story. I don't either but i know there is one and it's not the one you have told. if you forced me to guess at ramos' reasoning I'd assume:
- That there was a rationale
- That if I can't see it I should look to my own reasoning first.
Hanibal (the Cartegenian not the psychopath) was one of the greatest generals to have lived, one of his famous victories involved playing up to his opponents expectations before revealing something quite different at the last minute.
He encouraged the Roman's to attack down the middle in the traditional style of warfare favoured at the time, the Roman's duly obliged as they knew their better drilled heavy infantry held the advantage over the Carteginians veterans.
Except Hannibal had not placed in his elite in the centre, he'd arranged his foreign auxillaries there but dressed them as his crack troops. Instead he'd placed them on his wings, with cavalry and light infantry kept in reserve. The Roman's attacked and inevitably the Carteginians centre gave ground, emboldened in the knowledge the enemy had nowhere to run (Hannibal had so arranged his troops that their backs were to a river) the Roman's crack troops pressed forward. Now though their auxillaries arranged on the wings were coming up against Hannibal's veterans and getting slaughtered, they got funneled into the gap their comrades had made down the centre and like the horns of a stag beetle Hanibal's forces encircled the Roman's who'd almost reached the river. Unexpectedly attacked from the side and behind and with no where to run they panicked, even seasoned soldiers threw down their arms and legged it. When the Carteginian reserves joined the fray catching the Roman cavalry completely by surprise it became a massacre. The larger Roman army was wiped out with the dead measured in the tens of thousands, Hannibal lost less than a thousand and of those it was only the foreign and raw recruits.
Apologies for the long-winded analogy, but here's the point. PSV were expecting us to attack down the wings, they were prepared to defend there and get at us through the centre, instead we loaded the centre and went at them directly and it threw them out of kilter, made them uncertain where the previous week they'd been full of confidence and known what they were doing. What is more Ramos had a very attacking bench. This meant that as the game got older and legs grew weary he could conjure width and pace. PSV grew incresingly frantic and our attacks progressively more penetrating. Perhaps we should have put away one of the earlier chances, but it was no surprise that the goal came late in the game, I suspect it was no surprise to Ramos either who's hall-mark is teams that play at a frenetic attacking pace from kick-off to final whistle. The result was job done.
Your wish that we'd just gone at them ala Martin Jol was precisely what they'd trained all week to defend against, it was the game plan which so effectively stifled us at WHL. Instead of criticism, Ramos deserves your admiration. And if not that then enough respect to try and puzzle it out, rather than your slightly glib analysis.
I definitely give credit to PSV and the way they defended. I just feel that we had to many players who didn't perform to the best of their ability over the two games. If we performed the best we could and got beat. I'd feel a lot less frustrated about it.
I am thankful and pleased that we won the Carling cup and qualified for Europe. I don't think we can take it for granted that we qualify for Europe next season let alone break into the top 4. So my feet are grounded as far as expectation levels are concerned I feel.
I don't know how anyone who saw the first leg can say we played "exceptionally well" regardless of PSV's game plan. I don't blame Gilberto for the fact we lost the first leg neither do I blame JJ or Chimbo for us losing the tie. I just simply think that we didnt perform to the best of our ability.
Sloth - I think Ramos' excellent gameplan was discussed and explained fully by several posters, including idlepete, earlier in this thread, and the "tactics" thread in Spurs Chat.
Hannibal (2 'n's) has nothing to do with Ramos' decision making. And he was a Carthaginian. Is a Cartegenian some kind of mapmaker? :wink:
However, a few elephants (nothing to do with the Arse) to mow down the PSV defence might have come in handy...
sloth
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2005
- 9,018
- 6,900
I admit I missed your post (though in my defence I'll say I wrote what I wrote today in three short bursts in-between trying to look like I was working), but having read it now I can say it's a good one all though I'm not sure I entirely agree (use your full-backs to mark wingers?? Well it's interesting anyway :-|).
I'm not sure about Idlepete discussing or explaining anything fully (not in this thread anyway, perhaps you mean in the tactics one? I'll have a look in a sec) and discussion is what i was trying to have with him. As for explained... well that rather implies have some superior knowledge of what one is explaining to the explainee. Perhaps theorising is a better way to put it :wink:
LOL, probably. And I suspect you know this already, but i wasn't alluding to Ramos studying the battles of ancient Generals. It was more by way of an analogy (convoluted I admit) to show how knowledge of what your opponent will do and confounding his expectations of what you will do can be beneficial if you have an idea of how to exploit it.
SpurSince57
Well-Known Member
- Jan 20, 2006
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- 8,229
I suspect the one thing that Ramos may have overlooked is the possibility that PSV would circle the wagons the moment the whistle went. Fair enough at the Lane, but at home? I really was expecting better of them.
fortworthspur
Well-Known Member
- Nov 12, 2007
- 11,248
- 17,550
Its worth saying....
that PSV is a very good team. I though they were decidedly better based on the first leg and didnt think we had a chance in hell of making it up in Holland. Im in Nicaragua this week, so missed the game (got Everton-Fiorentina instead) - but it sounds like we did well, except forthe result. Im not into moral victories, but if we can be competitive with the likes of PSV (not to mention Chelsea and Arsenal) we are moving up in the world.
Im also bummed because I have nothing to really get excited about until August. The rest of the league games have little meaning.
that PSV is a very good team. I though they were decidedly better based on the first leg and didnt think we had a chance in hell of making it up in Holland. Im in Nicaragua this week, so missed the game (got Everton-Fiorentina instead) - but it sounds like we did well, except forthe result. Im not into moral victories, but if we can be competitive with the likes of PSV (not to mention Chelsea and Arsenal) we are moving up in the world.
Im also bummed because I have nothing to really get excited about until August. The rest of the league games have little meaning.
