Proud

[wirE]

the man I feel the most for is Chimbonda. He must have been devastated when the shot went out.

Being subbed in the final and all this with hutton lately had to break him.

 

[jordas]

The main point is that english players are not good at penalties! I am Bulgarian and we have before Berbatov one great Stoichkov at penalties....I am not happy about the match and its end.....we deserve something more i hope Ramos will buy the right players for Tottenham and next year we will qualified for champions leag and hopefully win a medal !!
Slavia Sofia and Tottenham Hotspur till i die Greetings form Bg. Sofia!

 

[DC_Boy]

English players aren't great at pens - but looking at our pens 3 out of 4 were scored by English - 2 out of 3 'non-english scored - so if anything the English had the better ratio

also a regular 'non-English' penalty taker (Steed) didn't take one, for whatever reason

 

[idlepete]

On IdlePete's criticisms of Ramos I think you're disadvantaged in not having the full story. I don't either but i know there is one and it's not the one you have told. if you forced me to guess at ramos' reasoning I'd assume:

1. That there was a rationale
2. That if I can't see it I should look to my own reasoning first.

By following steps one and two I can speculate, for example, that Ramos wanted to throw the PSV coaches plans out of kilter.

Hanibal (the Cartegenian not the psychopath) was one of the greatest generals to have lived, one of his famous victories involved playing up to his opponents expectations before revealing something quite different at the last minute.

He encouraged the Roman's to attack down the middle in the traditional style of warfare favoured at the time, the Roman's duly obliged as they knew their better drilled heavy infantry held the advantage over the Carteginians veterans.

Except Hannibal had not placed in his elite in the centre, he'd arranged his foreign auxillaries there but dressed them as his crack troops. Instead he'd placed them on his wings, with cavalry and light infantry kept in reserve. The Roman's attacked and inevitably the Carteginians centre gave ground, emboldened in the knowledge the enemy had nowhere to run (Hannibal had so arranged his troops that their backs were to a river) the Roman's crack troops pressed forward. Now though their auxillaries arranged on the wings were coming up against Hannibal's veterans and getting slaughtered, they got funneled into the gap their comrades had made down the centre and like the horns of a stag beetle Hanibal's forces encircled the Roman's who'd almost reached the river. Unexpectedly attacked from the side and behind and with no where to run they panicked, even seasoned soldiers threw down their arms and legged it. When the Carteginian reserves joined the fray catching the Roman cavalry completely by surprise it became a massacre. The larger Roman army was wiped out with the dead measured in the tens of thousands, Hannibal lost less than a thousand and of those it was only the foreign and raw recruits.

Apologies for the long-winded analogy, but here's the point. PSV were expecting us to attack down the wings, they were prepared to defend there and get at us through the centre, instead we loaded the centre and went at them directly and it threw them out of kilter, made them uncertain where the previous week they'd been full of confidence and known what they were doing. What is more Ramos had a very attacking bench. This meant that as the game got older and legs grew weary he could conjure width and pace. PSV grew incresingly frantic and our attacks progressively more penetrating. Perhaps we should have put away one of the earlier chances, but it was no surprise that the goal came late in the game, I suspect it was no surprise to Ramos either who's hall-mark is teams that play at a frenetic attacking pace from kick-off to final whistle. The result was job done.

Your wish that we'd just gone at them ala Martin Jol was precisely what they'd trained all week to defend against, it was the game plan which so effectively stifled us at WHL. Instead of criticism, Ramos deserves your admiration. And if not that then enough respect to try and puzzle it out, rather than your slightly glib analysis.

Don't apologise for the long-winded analogy. your long winded analogies are entertaining.

Ramos has got my admiration. Like I said in both threads, I already understood his reasoning and his tactics and it very nearly worked out for us. There wasn't anything for me to try to puzzle out.

The bit I've highlighted is the bit that's wrong. Maybe you got a little bit too excited and forgot what actually happened on the night while you were writing that lot out, if so I'm sorry to have to tell you that we're not in the draw for the next round of the UEFA Cup. It's also worth remembering that we didn't go there to win 1-0, we went there to win 2-0. Poyet said that's what we were going to do immediately after the first game (I can imagine Ramos already had his gameplan for the 2nd leg all but sorted before the final whistle). So scoring that late goal, although it was invaluable and kept us in the tie, was less than Ramos had planned/hoped for from his gameplan. We were a long way off job done.

I don't suggest for a minute that we should have played exactly the same way as we did at WHL (you haven't explicitly said I did, but others have). There were lots of changes we could have made in terms of personnel and tactics without sacrificing width or attacking intent. I've got enough belief in Ramos's ability to know he could have set us up in a more attacking fashion that could have also have thrown them out of kilter and seen them steamrolled out of our way (particularly with all the aerial freedom we had cos of their midget CBs). Yes, it would have been more risky. Yes, it goes against the conventional "this is how you win a European Cup" style of football. Like I said, I'm not making a major criticism of Ramos for his tactics. To use an anology of my own, it's a bit like Roy Wanker used to say on Catchphrase: "It's good, but it's not good enough."

 

[sunnydelight786]

This is my first opp to post after returning from Eindhoven. Did'nt get an opp yest as I had to travel up north for work as soon as I returned i.e. got home at 4.15am, left for work at 5am.

How anybody can say that there is nothing to be proud of the other night is either a wum (wind up merchant) or a Spurs fan who would still moan if we won the CL,PL,FA and Carling cup all in one season i.e. someone who moans just for the sake of moaning.

Lets have it right here. We beat the current Dutch champions ( winners in 2000, 01, 03, 05, 06, 07 & more than likely 08), regular CL performers, CL quarter finalist last yr beating scum along the way, CL semi finalist in 05 in there own back yard. We FULLY deserved our win there and for the vast majority of the 210 minutes playing time we had them on the back foot over the 2 games.

Speaking to the PSV fans before the game, you moaners were not there so dont know what was said or what the atmosphere was before or during the game, they fully expected to turn us over. They commented that although we are richer than them, they have by far the better "team" and there experience of CL football aswell as playing English teams will see them through and we wont get a sniff. I was cautiously confident as I know we had alot more to offer than the 1st leg but was worried that we may well conceade hence just miss out. How wrong was I.... Right from kick off we controlled the game. The home crowd were silenced in no tme and they just sat there hoping for the best.

Everyone associated to THFC should be proud of the fact that we went down fighting to a good team, who had there tails up from the 1st leg, and further enhanced our growing reputation in Europe. These were the words of the PSV coach at the end of the game in his press conference "We realise we have knocked a big team out of the UEFA Cup. We did not dominate the game, but the result is of overriding importance. We are indebted to Gomes, who pulled off a terrific save just before the final whistle went. He had a huge impact on the game and played a major part in the team’s success."
Hardly sounds like a coach who coached his team to a deserved victory, more like acoach who knows his side were bloody lucky to get through.

I have been fortunate enough to go to 7 of our 10 away games in Europe (got screwed over by Thomas Cook for the Tel-Aviv trip with a VERY late cancellation by them, was away in China on business for the cyprus trip this season and Prague trip in 06) and we have been nothing short of brillant away from home. Even in defeat, away at seville, we came back from that game with credit. Some of the teams we have beat away have been CL regualrs i.e. Besiktas, Leverkusen, PSV, Slavia Prague aswell as having vastly more experience than us in European football. Remember this is only our 2nd season of European footy with this team.

How people are still moaning after that game is beyond me!!!

 

[SpurSince57]

Let's face it, their tactics demonstrated that they were scared we would muller them if they took us on in an open game.

And as for their support—after their artistic display before kick-off, they were largely silent, whilst ours never let up all game.

 

[donny1013]

Great post SunnyD, i went out there as well and the atmosphere from our support was superb. The psv fans had literally nothing to sing about till Chimbonda missed the penno. I think had we got the early goal then we would have gone onto to do them, but for Gomes we could have beaten them any way. with Juande as coach we have a lot to look forward too

 

[sloth]

Don't apologise for the long-winded analogy. your long winded analogies are entertaining.

Ok I’ll take back my apology for that, but having read what I wrote again I will say sorry for being a bit ott in my criticism of what you wrote.

Ramos has got my admiration. Like I said in both threads, I already understood his reasoning and his tactics and it very nearly worked out for us. There wasn't anything for me to try to puzzle out.

The bit I've highlighted is the bit that's wrong. Maybe you got a little bit too excited and forgot what actually happened on the night while you were writing that lot out, if so I'm sorry to have to tell you that we're not in the draw for the next round of the UEFA Cup. It's also worth remembering that we didn't go there to win 1-0, we went there to win 2-0. Poyet said that's what we were going to do immediately after the first game (I can imagine Ramos already had his gameplan for the 2nd leg all but sorted before the final whistle). So scoring that late goal, although it was invaluable and kept us in the tie, was less than Ramos had planned/hoped for from his gameplan. We were a long way off job done.

I didn’t describe what I meant by job done properly. As a coach you can’t guarantee a win, you can put out a team to achieve certain goals which you hope if attained will lead to the result you require. You can’t put out a team which will either result in Berbatov scoring with an exquisite volley from the edge of the box, or prevent Malbranque putting one wide when he should have put in Keane or got it on target. That’s the slings and arrows of any game. So Ramos’ job was to disrupt PSVs game whilst maximising ours over a 90 minute period. I argue that he achieved this and that however scrappy we appeared at times we achieved our potential considering the opposition. I further argue that we did this as a result of Ramos’ tactics. You believe on the other hand that a less technical approach and a more gung-ho attitude would have seen a better result. I think you’re wrong and for evidence I’ll point you to Ramos’ record, the previous match at WHL and the record of the previous season. With your approach we may well have gone down in a blaze of glory, but imo it would more likely have been a fizzle of ignominy.

I don't suggest for a minute that we should have played exactly the same way as we did at WHL (you haven't explicitly said I did, but others have). There were lots of changes we could have made in terms of personnel and tactics without sacrificing width or attacking intent. I've got enough belief in Ramos's ability to know he could have set us up in a more attacking fashion that could have also have thrown them out of kilter and seen them steamrolled out of our way (particularly with all the aerial freedom we had cos of their midget CBs). Yes, it would have been more risky. Yes, it goes against the conventional "this is how you win a European Cup" style of football. Like I said, I'm not making a major criticism of Ramos for his tactics. To use an anology of my own, it's a bit like Roy Wanker used to say on Catchphrase: "It's good, but it's not good enough."

And this is what I refute and I refer you the ‘West Brom fan’ analogy of my previous post. There’s a reason Ramos is the coach he is and it’s not for want of plan, tactics or strategy. You can guarantee there was a reason we went gung-ho against Arsenal and tight against PSV and it’s not for lack of balls. Each match demanded a different strategy and in the case of the PSV match the minimum that was required was the stiff ask of an away victory. The worst we could have got is very far beneath that. The best proved just out of reach. What we did achieve was hugely praiseworthy and as the thread starter indicated should have made fans proud.

 

[Jonboy]

Great post sloth very entertaining and also great post SunnyD your right we should be proud european competitions are very tough and I feel we were very unlucky to go out on Wed and also last year come to think of it. Looking forward to next year already