Pochettinho "shows you what mistakes you made and gives you something to work on"

[sloth]

I think this is a very key point.
Teams expect to have a chance to beat Soton and set up accordingly. Opponents take a more cautious (defensive) approach when playing bigger teams including us which makes breaking them down ( and more susceptible to counter attack) a different proposition to play against.

As BM says he style can be effective but with a modified sytle and more skillful attackers ( AVB suffered a similar problem but was unable to adjust accordingly)

Doubt it, most coaches would look at southampton and try and work out how to beat their press, and if that meant sitting back and hitting them on the break, that's what they'd do... only the top five or six type clubs are going to try and beat them by going nose to nose, but the same applies to us too tbh.

 

[sloth]

Closing down for any loan front man is a thankless task - even Costa looks like a lost soul at times attempting this horrible job. Ade is no different.

Where we fall over is slopping passing in breakaways. Loan strikers live and die on service.

If Kane and Soldado where 'doing the business' in front of goal in comparable games, then Ade would deserve the flack he is getting.

The team did well for the goal on saturday but we need more of the same from everybody.

Many have been just profligate as Ade, but righty we cut them some slack.

I've seen Ade do it well, so i know what it looks like when he's doing it shit, and in a couple of games this season he's done it shit, and it's shit, not because he's trying and failing, but because he's not trying at all and trying to hide from having to do it imo.

Agree with you regards the breakaways though.

 

[Coyboy]

The press wouldn't work if ade wasn't to play his part... the whole point is it's got to be coordinated, otherwise it's like springing a trap but leaving a door open - which doesn't mean that Ade's involved in every coordinated press, but that when it's in his area of the pitch he has to get involved, otherwise we may as well give up on the whole concept.

You might be right, though I don't think there's any need for rigid or hard and fast rules. My original point was that he still does it as much if not more than Soldado or Kane and that at times I'd rather he was in the position to receive the ball than harry the opponent.

Not to respond to your point but generally, I’ve said many times that I doubt Adebayor is easy to work with at times. He seems to have a happy go lucky attitude to playing football at times but I just don’t see Soldado or Kane as viable alternatives and I think they would make us weaker.

 

[SteveH]

For some reason this annoys me. Kane and Soldado. How do you expect them" to do the business" if they are not getting the same amount of chances as Ade, playing with Lamela, Chadli and Co?

Ask/question Pochettino. In one breath people say they trust Pochettino and want to see him do well and the we have this type of situation with Ade. He will see things throughout his time spent with all these players on the training ground. He prefers Ade (as do I based on his physical presence).

Is Ade playing well, no - but other that Chadli upfront few are.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think you have a point about the french league being right for Bielsa. The French league is arguably the perfect place for Bielsa's game to impact. They have some excellent players and some players of real pace but most teams have two or three really decent players at the most and the rest average players or young players still developing or older ones in their declining years. There's pace but little intensity in the game and I think that teams have not been prepared for the intensity that OM have shown
Of course there are stronger teams to face, but they seem to be getting in their stride now. I watched both OM and St Etienne and the Nantes Lyon games on Sunday and although the scorelines and results don't look too bad OM looked a world apart from Lyon in terms of performance

Where I think we have to be careful is that there is far more time and space in the French League, not so in the PL and a lot of lesser teams now tend to defend deep and try and hit on quick counter attacks. Relying on getting forward and attacking and pressing high is fine but you need players with skill, vision and intelligence playing the final passes and getting into positions to score the goals.

I think we can get fitter and stronger to improve our passing and pressing, but unless we add a couple of quality attackers into the mix we are still going to find it hard to break down teams.

Poch could make it work for Soton because most clubs would play an open game against them, he needs to be thinking about a couple of players to help carve open the chances and get the ball in the net if he wants to get us into top four playing his style of game

I think you make a good point about the french league being right for Bielsa. I'm not sure I agree there is more time and space in the French league though. The time between getting the ball from bottom to top of the pitch is slower, but french academies seem to teach kids much better how to press and work as group, and the french game is always about passing and moving, there's virtually zero route 1 stuff and the fitness and stamina are better generally, so the pressing game is generally much better endemically in the french league. I don't think you get more time on the ball individually, I just think there is less pressure to get the ball from defence to attack quickly as in the English game. Not sure I've explained that well.

Anyhoo, I think what Bielsa has in terms of raw product/talent is remarkably similar to Pochettino, they play a similar formation too. Thauvin is almost identical in style and play to Lamela, But Ayew and Payet are definitely livelier and more dynamic than Chadli and Eriksen, and Gignac is nowhere near Adebayor's quality but at least he's not moping around like a spoilt kid. And that is helping Bielsa I think.

Having the right players in terms of ability is important, but also attitude. At Southampton I think the players he took over weren't as endemically lazy mentally and physically as some we have here.

 

[SteveH]

I've seen Ade do it well, so i know what it looks like when he's doing it shit, and in a couple of games this season he's done it shit, and it's shit, not because he's trying and failing, but because he's not trying at all and trying to hide from having to do it imo.

Agree with you regards the breakaways though.

Do you truly think Pochettino is really that stupid, not to know when a player is not trying?

For group of supporters who say they want to get behind the manager, some have a very low opinion of him.

 

[prawnsandwich]

Do you truly think Pochettino is really that stupid, not to know when a player is not trying?

Nail on the head.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Fine, it’s been a drop in form for whatever reason maybe fitness, maybe application, maybe lack of effort and maybe on Pochetinno’s side not quite getting the team playing as a cohesive unit in the last third. Last year we had Eriksson dropping off and working well in tandem with Adebayor, sometimes with Soldado as a foil. This season it’s a much different set up and only Chadli has really blossomed. Adebayor has still been involved in some of our better attacking performances- QPR and Sunderland- and was unlucky not to score against Liverpool.

To be honest I wouldn’t want to see him constantly “charging around leading the press”. I’d rather that is left with to other players so that Adebayor receives the ball from midfielders or wingers once the ball is recovered. We are playing with a much different system than we had under Sherwood or even AVB and it takes time, but Adebayor has to be at the fulcrum of our attack.

As I said above, unless his form becomes so bad that he doesn’t merit his place but we aren’t at that stage yet and there is too much constant calls for Adebayor to be dropped. I wasn’t particularly talking about you so just calm down.

The striker is essential to operate the high pressing system. Try to look out the interview with Schneiderlin that was posted in his transfer thread.

You don't just press the same tempo constantly for 90 mins, the level and timing is instigated by the striker and works from the top down. The rest follow his lead.

But the bottom line is, even if you aren't pressing high up, you still need to press the ball cohesively in a coordinated way, otherwise you aren't controlling pitch without the ball, they are with the ball.

And Adebayor is a passenger right now and that means the whole system is falling down. As we keep seeing.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How do YOU know he is disinterested?

Reminds me some post on Danny Rose last season......

I don't, but it sure as shit looks like it to me.

 

[Coyboy]

The striker is essential to operate the high pressing system. Try to look out the interview with Schneiderlin that was posted in his transfer thread.

You don't just press the same tempo constantly for 90 mins, the level and timing is instigated by the striker and works from the top down. The rest follow his lead.

But the bottom line is, even if you aren't pressing high up, you still need to press the ball cohesively in a coordinated way, otherwise you aren't controlling pitch without the ball, they are with the ball.

And Adebayor is a passenger right now and that means the whole system is falling down. As we keep seeing.

But as Steve has said, he’s not the only culprit and he’s not been totally terrible. We as a team have yet to hit our stride, which personally I’m fine with as everything is new and only Chelsea and Southampton have made great starts. The latter will most likely fade.

I am a bit reluctant to assume we should or would be playing a carbon copy of his Southampton team. Let’s assume that Adebayor does press more, if he wins the ball then he is more than capable of using it well but he is better to us in space in the final third so I’d like the front 3, if we are playing 4-2-3-1 to press as much if not more than him. He’s a very different player than Rickie Lambert. And by different I mean in a different stratosphere in terms of goal threat and skill. I’d rather the players in front of him were playing better and creating chances for him, or getting him the ball to create chances.

Adebayor’s not blameless at all, but the whole team needs to perform better. I really have Eriksson in mind, but Chadli and Lamela while improved need to do better too.

 

[SteveH]

I don't, but it sure as shit looks like it to me.

I think some of the this is not helped by the sheer size of Ade. Ive heard it said of the likes of Dzeko, Crouch and especially of our friend Mario.

No I'm not saying Ade has played at the top of his form. To the untrained eye, and the dont come more untrained than mine, Ade looks slightly slower and lethargic. We are though talking here of very small margins with someone the size of Ade, as he is the epitome of languid in his gate.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But as Steve has said, he’s not the only culprit and he’s not been totally terrible. We as a team have yet to hit our stride, which personally I’m fine with as everything is new and only Chelsea and Southampton have made great starts. The latter will most likely fade.

I am a bit reluctant to assume we should or would be playing a carbon copy of his Southampton team. Let’s assume that Adebayor does press more, if he wins the ball then he is more than capable of using it well but he is better to us in space in the final third so I’d like the front 3, if we are playing 4-2-3-1 to press as much if not more than him. He’s a very different player than Rickie Lambert. And by different I mean in a different stratosphere in terms of goal threat and skill. I’d rather the players in front of him were playing better and creating chances for him, or getting him the ball to create chances.

Adebayor’s not blameless at all, but the whole team needs to perform better. I really have Eriksson in mind, but Chadli and Lamela while improved need to do better too.

I've said he's not the only culprit too, but he's by far the worse IMO, and as I said previously, in Pochettino's system the press is instigated by Adebayor, it's harder for it to be effective if even one player isn't working the system, because that's one man spare for the opponent to escape the press. And he (Ade) actually plays better I think when he's doing this anyway. The best games I've seen him have are when he's at it. He doesn't have to bear responsibility for scoring, we have 3 players behind him who can all score goals.

 

[Coyboy]

I've said he's not the only culprit too, but he's by far the worse IMO, and as I said previously, in Pochettino's system the press is instigated by Adebayor, it's harder for it to be effective if even one player isn't working the system, because that's one man spare for the opponent to escape the press. And he (Ade) actually plays better I think when he's doing this anyway. The best games I've seen him have are when he's at it. He doesn't have to bear responsibility for scoring, we have 3 players behind him who can all score goals.

I wouldn't say he's the worst, but then you are arguing over fine margins. My original point is that he doesn't deserve to be benched right now because he hasn't been as bad as people make out and the replacements aren't good enough.

Again, I'm not sure he needs to be 'pressing' the whole time to be effective. I'd rather he got some support from the 'front 3' pushing forward to the extent that one of them could be an auxiliary striker.

 

[sloth]

You might be right, though I don't think there's any need for rigid or hard and fast rules. My original point was that he still does it as much if not more than Soldado or Kane and that at times I'd rather he was in the position to receive the ball than harry the opponent.

Not to respond to your point but generally, I’ve said many times that I doubt Adebayor is easy to work with at times. He seems to have a happy go lucky attitude to playing football at times but I just don’t see Soldado or Kane as viable alternatives and I think they would make us weaker.

I think where we disagree is over whether Ade does it as much as the other two options. I do agree with you regards how important it is he's in position to receive the ball, but I don't see it as an either or but something which flows from harrying the opponent high up the pitch, a la Chadli's goal against Arse.

 

[Coyboy]

I think where we disagree is over whether Ade does it as much as the other two options. I do agree with you regards how important it is he's in position to receive the ball, but I don't see it as an either or but something which flows from harrying the opponent high up the pitch, a la Chadli's goal against Arse.

Well, ok I just don't think Soldado or Kane will add anything in terms of pressing let alone sheer quality with the ball.

I agree it's not an either or situation, and I wouldn't want Ade to goal hang but I think the team as a whole hasn't pressed well enough (obviously if told to) and when we have counter attacked (i.e. Arsenal) our final ball and movement has been off. That is the entire team's, not just Adebayor or Eriksen's.

I don't think we are too aided by our full backs. Naughton and Rose are good defenders but in our system of pseudo-wingers (Chadli, Lamela, Eriksen) we need good attacking full backs. Walker's return will help but I believe Southampton did well in stretching the pitch somewhat with Shaw and Clyne. Rose and Naughton are a bit too conservative and so counter-attacking may be are a bit narrow.

And then the goal on Saturday was a direct result of harrying high up the pitch and we should do more of it as a team. I don't think Adebayor is doing this much less than others and importantly I don't think we should jettison him just yet as his replacements are just worse players for me. It's not as if Suarez is on the bench.

 

[sloth]

Do you truly think Pochettino is really that stupid, not to know when a player is not trying?

For group of supporters who say they want to get behind the manager, some have a very low opinion of him.

I've no idea what Poch thought of Ade's performance on Sunday, I know what he said about ade in public and that it was positive, and whether he really thought Ade put in a shift or not, assuming he doesn't think he's a lost cause, that is what I'd want him to do. I don't know about you, but I find leading people to be a tricky skill to master, you've got to give people a chance, but you've also got to show them who's boss, you've also got to give them enough rope sometimes... there's loads of psychological ploys as well. For me, Ade has the talent, and he's an expensive asset, if you can help it you don't want to throw him on the scrap-heap, especially when you've only been the boss for two minutes. With any luck the public support from Poch will see ade quit his games and pull his finger out next match...

Which is not to deny the fact that it could just have been a couple of off days from Ade, or he may have been under the weather, it's only a suspicion that I have that he's playing up. Also, if he does improve, that might just be because he's feeling a bit better... basically, as I say, it's a suspicion regards him at this stage, and I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if we keep seeing the same from him, and Poch keeps on picking him then I'd begin to worry.

 

[SteveH]

I've no idea what Poch thought of Ade's performance on Sunday, I know what he said about ade in public and that it was positive, and whether he really thought Ade put in a shift or not, assuming he doesn't think he's a lost cause, that is what I'd want him to do. I don't know about you, but I find leading people to be a tricky skill to master, you've got to give people a chance, but you've also got to show them who's boss, you've also got to give them enough rope sometimes... there's loads of psychological ploys as well. For me, Ade has the talent, and he's an expensive asset, if you can help it you don't want to throw him on the scrap-heap, especially when you've only been the boss for two minutes. With any luck the public support from Poch will see ade quit his games and pull his finger out next match...

Which is not to deny the fact that it could just have been a couple of off days from Ade, or he may have been under the weather, it's only a suspicion that I have that he's playing up. Also, if he does improve, that might just be because he's feeling a bit better... basically, as I say, it's a suspicion regards him at this stage, and I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if we keep seeing the same from him, and Poch keeps on picking him then I'd begin to worry.

I personally think Ade is the best of the bunch (Kane & Soldado) to play "the big target man". Its as simply as that. But that loan striker role is a thankless task for 99% of most games.

 

[Guangzhouspur]

Didn't Ade have malaria over the summer? Just a thought that his energy levels might have been effected by it. He's certainly looked lethargic and half-hearted...

 

[Japhet]

I don’t get this dismissal of Adebayor. Soldado demonstrates laziness and passivity as much if not more than Adebayor. Putting aside for one moment Adebayor’s far superior ability, I am not sure why one gets blamed more than the other. Perhaps it’s the Arsenal connection, perhaps it’s the perception of a seemingly temperamental or mercurial footballer who turns up to have a laugh when he wants against the image of a hard working pro (Soldado/Kane).

It’s a no brainer as to who I would rather have in the team and it appears that until Adebayor’s dry patch continues or unless he gets back to his form of last season Pochettino takes the same view. Kane and Soldado just aren’t as good as Adebayor in the same way Chiriches and, from the little I have seen, Fazio aren’t as good as Kaboul or Vertonghen. All this ‘buying into philisophy’ reeks of LVG’s evasive superciliousness. Thank God he doesn’t sit on the bench with an A3 clip board.

I have seen Ade press as much as the next striker. I think we are all corrupted by witnessing Suarez’s maniacal style and expect everyone to follow suit. Ade can be overly passive in attack, he can miss chances but on a good day he can contribute double what Kane and Soldado can. Managing a team is about getting the best out of your most talented players, not throwing those with talent to the scrapheap when they hit a poor spell. He was excellent against QPR not too long ago and I am not convinced that Soldado or Kane have shown enough to replace him.

Perhaps Pochettino was forced to get the best out Lambert at Southampton because he couldn’t sign an Adebayor, or even a Soldado.

Really? Adebayor wouldn't be able to score the goal Soldado scored in the last Europa game as long as he had a hole up his backside. They are 2 completely different players with different skillsets.

 

[Coyboy]

Really? Adebayor wouldn't be able to score the goal Soldado scored in the last Europa game as long as he had a hole up his backside. They are 2 completely different players with different skillsets.

Yes really. They do have different skillsets I agree. Adebayor is also just a far better player and more suited to the EPL.