Player Watch: Pierre-Emile Højbjerg

[dudu]

I used that example because you talked like he was some huge prospect, yet he went to Southampton, it was a counter to your argument rather than a point I’ve brought up out of thin air to argue against every single player that’s ever lived ? I’m saying if he was considered a huge talent he wouldn’t have ended up at Southampton, Wanyama and Mane going there made some sense because players from weak leagues like Scotland and Austria generally have to make moves like that to prove themselves first, if PEH was a huge talent playing for Bayern in a strong German league then it’s a different story, as clever as you think you are being here using my point against me, it’s not really that clever when all the details are examined properly is it?

As things stand he’s wanted to sit deep with our squad but we will see what he’d like to do when we get some better players in. The likes of Perisic and Bissouma who are much better technically than their competition for the place in the starting 11 will definitely help us to play on the front foot more.

So do I actually, I think all 4 senior CM’s will be integral parts of the team next season with PL and CL to juggle and I’m really happy we have such good depth there now, I fully expect to line up with Bissouma and Bentancur in the big matches though and for that to be our pairing for the most part in the PL

I just don't understand your way of thinking, which is fine, I guess, I just don't think your reasoning behind Hojbjergs ability makes sense...

No one ever said he was a huge talent while playing games for Bayern, he wasn't getting his chance there so he moved somewhere so that he could play regular football in the toughest league in the world.

Many highly-rated players get sent to non-CL level clubs to progress their careers.

Bissouma in my opinion is a fantastic player, but he definitely has to prove his worth when it comes to being the catalyst for us to play on the front foot more in Conte's system - neither of us has ever seen him play for Spurs before.

For example, PEH averages about 30 more passes a game for Spurs than Bissouma ever has in his career. Considering Conte is very disciplined in how he wants the ball moved around we have no idea how he is going to take on that role. I think he will do well and will provide us with an incredible option but I don't see him ousting one of our leaders straight away.

Maybe I am wrong, but like you, I think this is a good problem to have, I guess we will just have to see what transpires but either way we are going to be incredibly solid.

 

[Flobadob]

Several people have now pointed out inconsistencies and contradictions in your argument, still it seems your unwilling or perhaps unable to see them.
You make some good points but for a debate to be fruitful both sides need to listen. You don’t, instead you cherry pick and disregard others arguments and all stats (!). You’re not the only one, of course, but it stands out in this thread.
I’m (still) not claiming he’s a world beater, but your wrong about several things - latest that he was not considered a big talent. He was indeed, rated by Bayern and Guardiola as well (as I already told you), but he wasn’t mature enough to wait for regular playing time and chose to move on. Footballers careers are not usually linear and he obviously needed to develop as a footballer and human being before being ready for the big stage. Now here he is and doing more than well. Deal with it.

Several people have now pointed out inconsistencies and contradictions in your argument, still it seems your unwilling or perhaps unable to see them.
You make some good points but for a debate to be fruitful both sides need to listen. You don’t, instead you cherry pick and disregard others arguments and all stats (!). You’re not the only one, of course, but it stands out in this thread.
I’m (still) not claiming he’s a world beater, but your wrong about several things - latest that he was not considered a big talent. He was indeed, rated by Bayern and Guardiola as well (as I already told you), but he wasn’t mature enough to wait for regular playing time and chose to move on. Footballers careers are not usually linear and he obviously needed to develop as a footballer and human being before being ready for the big stage. Now here he is and doing more than well. Deal with it.

I think the inconsistencies probably stem from the fact one minute I’m comparing him generally to the rest of world football in which case he’s a good player, but then the next I’m making the point that although he’s a good player I still don’t believe he’s good enough to take us where we want to go. The reason for that comes down to his technical ability not being up to scratch and him generally being slow, not very well balanced or co-ordinated. He has a lot of good qualities like his football IQ is seriously high and I’ve said this from very early on in his Spurs career but his weaknesses are really badly shown up against the top CM’s in my opinion. He’s been a shit show against Chelsea, Arsenal, Wolves and a few others this season and the reason for that is pretty simple, their midfielders are better than him. He got shown up against Palace away too, Southampton and Bissouma dominated him more than once this season. There have been so many stats posted in here but I’ve seen this stuff happen with my own eyes. He was quality for the last 2 months of the season though and I I hope he keeps that up, it’s been 2 years at Spurs though and there’s not much evidence that he will… I do hope he does though because I want the best for the club and think he’s a good guy. The 4 CM’s we have for options next year are one of the most exciting things going into then new season, I don’t hate PEH or anything I just think if we didn’t have a fantastic young player in Skipp and a great new signing in Bissouma to move forward with too I would be expecting no silverware next season and top 4 at the most

 

[Locotoro]

I used that example because you talked like he was some huge prospect, yet he went to Southampton, it was a counter to your argument rather than a point I’ve brought up out of thin air to argue against every single player that’s ever lived ? I’m saying if he was considered a huge talent he wouldn’t have ended up at Southampton, Wanyama and Mane going there made some sense because players from weak leagues like Scotland and Austria generally have to make moves like that to prove themselves first, if PEH was a huge talent playing for Bayern in a strong German league then it’s a different story, as clever as you think you are being here using my point against me, it’s not really that clever when all the details are examined properly is it?

As things stand he’s wanted to sit deep with our squad but we will see what he’d like to do when we get some better players in. The likes of Perisic and Bissouma who are much better technically than their competition for the place in the starting 11 will definitely help us to play on the front foot more.

So do I actually, I think all 4 senior CM’s will be integral parts of the team next season with PL and CL to juggle and I’m really happy we have such good depth there now, I fully expect to line up with Bissouma and Bentancur in the big matches though and for that to be our pairing for the most part in the PL

Just for clarity, Bayern didn't get rid of Hojbjerg. They tried to keep him and sign him to a new contract and wanted to send him on another development loan as he was being touted as a future captain of Bayern. But he wanted to leave start his career as a first teamer. He chose Southampton because the city fitted with what he was looking for in an environment in moving to a new country, because of the recommendations of Schmeicael and Eriksen and their style of play. He felt that move was best for his development and he wanted to come to the Premier League.

I'm not sure that is a stick to beat him with. We commend young English stars that leave City, United and Chelsea and go to Dortmund or Leipzig and come back much more developed but for some reason that same approach for players coming to the UK isn't as commended?

 

[ShelfWatcher]

PEH is a top player and for me is a no. 1 pick for midfield.
As time goes by pecking order may emerge, but for me him, Biss, Skipp and Benta are all no. 1 choices. They bring different attributes and all deserve to start in big games. Which players start the first two games will be interesting.
I would kick off with PEH and Benta ATM, but maybe will think different by August.

 

[Locotoro]

I think the inconsistencies probably stem from the fact one minute I’m comparing him generally to the rest of world football in which case he’s a good player, but then the next I’m making the point that although he’s a good player I still don’t believe he’s good enough to take us where we want to go. The reason for that comes down to his technical ability not being up to scratch and him generally being slow, not very well balanced or co-ordinated. He has a lot of good qualities like his football IQ is seriously high and I’ve said this from very early on in his Spurs career but his weaknesses are really badly shown up against the top CM’s in my opinion. He’s been a shit show against Chelsea, Arsenal, Wolves and a few others this season and the reason for that is pretty simple, their midfielders are better than him. He got shown up against Palace away too, Southampton and Bissouma dominated him more than once this season. There have been so many stats posted in here but I’ve seen this stuff happen with my own eyes. He was quality for the last 2 months of the season though and I I hope he keeps that up, it’s been 2 years at Spurs though and there’s not much evidence that he will… I do hope he does though because I want the best for the club and think he’s a good guy. The 4 CM’s we have for options next year are one of the most exciting things going into then new season, I don’t hate PEH or anything I just think if we didn’t have a fantastic young player in Skipp and a great new signing in Bissouma to move forward with too I would be expecting no silverware next season and top 4 at the most

Out of curiosity, do you think those performances that you felt were bad were because of Hojbjergs weaknesses or moreso attributable to the system we played (under Nuno/Jose) or lack of familiarity with the system (under Conte).

I do remember those matches and you're right that he was not good. But he's also played against some of those teams really well in the return fixture(Arsenal & Palace).

He seems to be a very intelligent player as you say and I wonder whether the system exposed his flaws as it is equally now enhancing his performances.

For me, Hojbjerg is like an Amplifier. If he's put with poor performers he's going to look really bad. But put him with a good set up and team and he's going to keep the team really well knitted together and look real good.

 

[Locotoro]

I just learnt that his Korean nickname is General Ho.

Either because of his commanding presence or because he gets around a bit

 

[Flobadob]

Out of curiosity, do you think those performances that you felt were bad were because of Hojbjergs weaknesses or moreso attributable to the system we played (under Nuno/Jose) or lack of familiarity with the system (under Conte).

I do remember those matches and you're right that he was not good. But he's also played against some of those teams really well in the return fixture(Arsenal & Palace).

He seems to be a very intelligent player as you say and I wonder whether the system exposed his flaws as it is equally now enhancing his performances.

For me, Hojbjerg is like an Amplifier. If he's put with poor performers he's going to look really bad. But put him with a good set up and team and he's going to keep the team really well knitted together and look real good.

I think probably a bit of both. At the time we didn’t have certain players playing well like Sessegnon, Emerson who improved quite a bit, Romero wasn’t in the side, Davies etc.. of course we improved as a whole under Conte as a team too, but I’m quite reluctant to blame frankly awful performances entirely on the system we played. According to those who post all the stats in here he’s one of the most well rounded players in our squad both winning the ball back in various ways and making a lot of passes and contributing in the final third, if that’s the case a player like that should be able to adapt, especially a CM where it’s kind of your job to be adaptable to every situation. I do agree if he’s in a well oiled machine he looks better but I think that’s true of a lot of players like him who are extremely consistent. I generally think he just gets shown up as not quite up to scratch when he’s asked to actually control the midfield against top players, they just run rings around him and he gets far too bent out of shape on the ball when pressured in that situation too. Perhaps I’m living in the past and we’ve been spoilt but honestly PEH is nowhere near the class of Dembele or Wanyama and we’re gonna need midfielders of that quality at the very least to achieve something, it’s such an important position, you can’t get away with not having top class players in there. None of our 4 CM’s have hit their prime yet, so there is potential there and we’ll see what we look like next season. Having 4 quality options, hopefully all staying fit, will improve us next season on its own as fatigue shouldn’t be such a big factor. It’s what got Skipp injured last season and us being perilously close to having to rely on Winks but luckily keeping PEH and Bentancur fit was nerve wracking!

We’ll see how he goes next season, he played well in the last couple months of the season, so you may well be right that his poor performances earlier in the season were down to the system we played

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

Bissouma, Eriksen, Hojbjerg, Sarr and what happens now in Tottenham's midfield

Tottenham's midfield will have a different look new season under Antonio Conte thanks to a new addition and more to come

www.football.london

" Hojbjerg is a big personality in the dressing room at Spurs, part of the leadership group within the squad and a man with vocal opinions on everything going on around him at the club. Those behind the scenes describe the articulate Dane as an intense character within the squad, one who constantly drives his team-mates on but also can be a lot to handle at first for those who have not experienced his demeanour before.

Hojbjerg leads by example and has often played with injuries for Spurs when he should not have, because he did not want to let the team down. He, along with Eric Dier, is the first player to arrive at the club's Hotspur Way training complex each morning and is one of the last to leave. He demands the best of those around him and that's no bad thing, especially in this new-look Tottenham. "

What more can you ask for? He's the type of personality we need more of at the club. Still feel that he's best suited in a 352, pressing further up the pitch and being allowed to join in with the attack.

We have been crying out for a player like him (in both mentality and talent) for years. He is a leader and an excellent player. We have seen what he can do when he is partnered with players who can match his workrate (Skipp/bentancur).

The only thing now is to make sure we rotate our midfield options. Skipp was playing far too much football in the first half of the season and peh has played a ridiculous amount of games as well.

We have a class cm team, I think we are strongest in this area now. I would actually argue, in their own way, all four of our midfielders are underrated.

Age as well, peh is the oldest at 26. We have a really bright future in the middle of the park.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see three of them playing at the same time. We've already seen Skipp and hoijberg being deployed in the kuvuleski role (albeit deeper).

 

[Deleted member 29446]

More stats to the ones who doesn’t rate stats!

 

[Flobadob]

More stats to the ones who doesn’t rate stats!

This is a hilariously stupid stat though tbh. The xG of when Hojbjerg is involved in the build up lol he’s involved in every bit of build up for us almost and we score a lot of goals don’t we. Unless I’m missing something (be happy to have it pointed out) this stat is absolutely ridiculous. Under these stats he could make a 1 yard pass to Kane who then plays a 40 yard pass to Son which we score from and that would increase his xG being involved in the build up

 

[Deleted member 29446]

This is a hilariously stupid stat though tbh. The xG of when Hojbjerg is involved in the build up lol he’s involved in every bit of build up for us almost and we score a lot of goals don’t we. Unless I’m missing something (be happy to have it pointed out) this stat is absolutely ridiculous. Under these stats he could make a 1 yard pass to Kane who then plays a 40 yard pass to Son which we score from and that would increase his xG being involved in the build up

Only you can spin this right away as a negative.

Incredibly hilarious actually.

“The spirit of xG Build up is based on knowing which players are part of passing chains that end in a shot but without taking into account the last two links – shot and last pass -, thus measuring midfielders, centre-backs or full-backs who have an important influence on their team’s possessions. In this way, we can see the role of those players who accumulate and construct many plays that end up being relevant. You can conclude how important Toni Kroos or Trent Alexander-Arnold can be in this metric”

 

[Flobadob]

Only you can spin this right away as a negative.

Incredibly hilarious actually.

“The spirit of xG Build up is based on knowing which players are part of passing chains that end in a shot but without taking into account the last two links – shot and last pass -, thus measuring midfielders, centre-backs or full-backs who have an important influence on their team’s possessions. In this way, we can see the role of those players who accumulate and construct many plays that end up being relevant. You can conclude how important Toni Kroos or Trent Alexander-Arnold can be in this metric”

Oh okay so it’s basically an “assist before the assist” type stat? That makes a fuck load more sense. Also chill out mate, it just seemed like it meant being part of the possession that lead to a goal rather than an “assist to the assist” type stat, which is definitely way more impressive

 

[PhC]

Oh okay so it’s basically an “assist before the assist” type stat? That makes a fuck load more sense. Also chill out mate, it just seemed like it meant being part of the possession that lead to a goal rather than an “assist to the assist” type stat, which is definitely way more impressive

There are many meaningless stats and tbf I can’t quite make out if this is one of them. Either way, the names in that list alone makes it interesting, hardly anyone in the top 20 is less than world class, and so it is at the very least another indication that claiming PEH is not class requires very good arguments.

 

[Flobadob]

There are many meaningless stats and tbf I can’t quite make out if this is one of them. Either way, the names in that list alone makes it interesting, hardly anyone in the top 20 is less than world class, and so it is at the very least another indication that claiming PEH is not class requires very good arguments.

The fact that the guy hasn’t replied suggests he doesn’t know either. Does seem on the face of it to be a stat about basically how often you have a touch in a passing move that results in a goal. Which is a completely useless stat. Hojbjerg sees a lot of the ball, that’s one stat which you cannot argue against, so I’d expect him to be on this list regardless of it being any use at all

 

[McFlash]

The fact that the guy hasn’t replied suggests he doesn’t know either. Does seem on the face of it to be a stat about basically how often you have a touch in a passing move that results in a goal. Which is a completely useless stat. Hojbjerg sees a lot of the ball, that’s one stat which you cannot argue against, so I’d expect him to be on this list regardless of it being any use at all

I like you and what you post but you do seem to have a blindspot regarding PEH.
He may not be a world-beater but he's a bloody good player with a top mentality and I honestly think we'll be hard pressed to improve upon him in the squad.

For me, he's one of the unsung heroes of the last couple of years. Plays through injury, cajoles those around him and translates what the manager wants onto the pitch.
He's also underrated with his technical ability.
His vision and movement can be great, for the position he plays.

I honestly think that the four we have now give us great options for midfield going forward. They're all similar but yet, all have slightly different styles and attributes.
Between them, it's a great combination to have for the middle two.

 

[Deleted member 29446]

Oh okay so it’s basically an “assist before the assist” type stat? That makes a fuck load more sense. Also chill out mate, it just seemed like it meant being part of the possession that lead to a goal rather than an “assist to the assist” type stat, which is definitely way more impressive

I'm not sure actually.

"Top 20 by xGBuildup/90​

You’ll note, however, that for a lot of players, the values are still dominated by xG from shots and xA from assists. You get a little extra credit for your buildup play, and some unexpected players are still able to shine through. But the fun starts when exclude shots and assists from the possession chains, so we can concentrate just on buildup play. It’s okay if you ultimately make the assist or shot yourself, but you also have to be involved in the earlier parts of the move to get credit. I originally called this pre-xGC (pre as in pre-assist, you see), but the world knows it now as xGBuildup and it yields quite a fun list this season:

Messi still appears because he’s a freak, but we’ve also got a motley crew of midfielders and defenders, many of whose contributions to attacking play are easily lost when looking at mere xG and xA (or indeed raw goals and assists)."
Link.

My point is.
We have one of the top5 players in the world in this particular stat and the first thing you do is spin it negatively. Mental.

 

[Flobadob]

I'm not sure actually.

"Top 20 by xGBuildup/90​

You’ll note, however, that for a lot of players, the values are still dominated by xG from shots and xA from assists. You get a little extra credit for your buildup play, and some unexpected players are still able to shine through. But the fun starts when exclude shots and assists from the possession chains, so we can concentrate just on buildup play. It’s okay if you ultimately make the assist or shot yourself, but you also have to be involved in the earlier parts of the move to get credit. I originally called this pre-xGC (pre as in pre-assist, you see), but the world knows it now as xGBuildup and it yields quite a fun list this season:

Messi still appears because he’s a freak, but we’ve also got a motley crew of midfielders and defenders, many of whose contributions to attacking play are easily lost when looking at mere xG and xA (or indeed raw goals and assists)."
Link.

My point is.
We have one of the top5 players in the world in this particular stat and the first thing you do is spin it negatively. Mental.

Didn’t spin it negatively, just questioned the actual usefulness of the stat, but whatever floats your boat mate

 

[PhC]

The fact that the guy hasn’t replied suggests he doesn’t know either. Does seem on the face of it to be a stat about basically how often you have a touch in a passing move that results in a goal. Which is a completely useless stat. Hojbjerg sees a lot of the ball, that’s one stat which you cannot argue against, so I’d expect him to be on this list regardless of it being any use at all

You’re doing it again - repeating your point and ignoring what others write.

We’ve established that we do not know exactly what it measures. But how many completely useless stats will have only top top players in the top 20? I mean, there’s typically some bias in a stat - number of tackles favor teams who have to defend more, and defenders with great positioning who intercepts more will not have to tackle as much. Therefore you see both great and surprisingly not so great players topping stat tables. But here you only have great players which (combined with all the other points ppl have put forward in here) should at the very least make you wonder if you might just underrate PEH a little.

 

[Flobadob]

You’re doing it again - repeating your point and ignoring what others write.

We’ve established that we do not know exactly what it measures. But how many completely useless stats will have only top top players in the top 20? I mean, there’s typically some bias in a stat - number of tackles favor teams who have to defend more, and defenders with great positioning who intercepts more will not have to tackle as much. Therefore you see both great and surprisingly not so great players topping stat tables. But here you only have great players which (combined with all the other points ppl have put forward in here) should at the very least make you wonder if you might just underrate PEH a little.

I honestly can’t be arsed mate. You’re trying to have debate about a statistic that you don’t even understand and apparently I’m the one with the issue here. This stat literally seems like you need to have a touch in a passing move that results in a goal to raise your score, so naturally possession based teams (normally the top teams) or players that see a lot of the ball (players like Hojbjerg) are going to score highly. Does it make it any less useless as a stat, not really

 

[PhC]

I honestly can’t be arsed mate. You’re trying to have debate about a statistic that you don’t even understand and apparently I’m the one with the issue here. This stat literally seems like you need to have a touch in a passing move that results in a goal to raise your score, so naturally possession based teams (normally the top teams) or players that see a lot of the ball (players like Hojbjerg) are going to score highly. Does it make it any less useless as a stat, not really

I thought you found all stats meaningless?

Yours is really a case of WYSIATI

Availability Heuristic (WYSIATI)

WYSIATI is an acronym for What You See Is All There Is, and it is linked to of 3 cognitive biases. Overconfidence: Rhetoric > Quality of EvidenceFraming Eff

unearnedwisdom.com