New Stadium Details And Discussions

[SirHarryHotspur]

Your most likely correct, but what do you then do about the express trains to Stansted? Those will still be running and can't dodge the slower Crossrail's trains stopping at every stop. They could run a similar frequency to Crossrail's proposed 10-12 per hour now if they wanted to, but have to schedule the slow trains around the direct Std - Lpl street services.

Only way around it is to add additional track. A third will give you a little flexibility in the schedule, a fourth removes the issue.

The Stansted Express isn't really an Express doesn't have it's own dedicated line as it has to fit in between other trains as most of the track is just the two lines up & down , unless they propose to buy up land a third track would be hard to build.
Under the plans Broxbourne would get some extra track work and a new platform , Tottenham Hale would also get an extra platform but it looks like stations in between would just be refurbished and extended.
According to the plan for Brimsdown the level crossing would be removed so others would probably be the same. It will be years before any of this happens so leaving the stadium via Northumberland Park will not improve until crossrail 2 is completed.

Northumberland Park - Crossrail 2

crossrail2.co.uk

Brimsdown - Crossrail 2

crossrail2.co.uk

 

[tottenmal]

The Stansted Express isn't really an Express doesn't have it's own dedicated line as it has to fit in between other trains as most of the track is just the two lines up & down , unless they propose to buy up land a third track would be hard to build.
Under the plans Broxbourne would get some extra track work and a new platform , Tottenham Hale would also get an extra platform but it looks like stations in between would just be refurbished and extended.
According to the plan for Brimsdown the level crossing would be removed so others would probably be the same. It will be years before any of this happens so leaving the stadium via Northumberland Park will not improve until crossrail 2 is completed.

Northumberland Park - Crossrail 2

crossrail2.co.uk

Brimsdown - Crossrail 2

crossrail2.co.uk

Interesting. Reading the 2015 consultation PDF it seems that they are being very coy about the track changes. They can't just get rid of the train to Cambridge though, and if they want 10 trains an hour on CR2 and a Cambridge train at the current schedule (let alone the promised improvements) then they'll need 4 tracks.
Seems to be a proposal being looked into by National Rail and the West Coast Main Line, with CR2 keeping it outside of their remit and only looking at track changes north of Broxbourne and south of Tottenham.

Creating more capacity
'To create the extra capacity needed to run more services along the West Anglia Main Line, Crossrail 2 would require the addition of new tracks along the route from south of Tottenham Hale station to north of Broxbourne station. This would also allow for a further service of four trains per hour from all stations on the line to Stratford, in addition to Crossrail 2. The new tracks could also enable an increase in the number of faster longer-distance services between Liverpool Street, Bishop's Stortford and Cambridge. We are still at a very early stage in the development of our proposals for the new tracks. We will carry out further consultation in the local areas about these proposals as they develop'

https://crossrail2.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Angel-Road.pdf

Crossrail 2
Crossrail 2 is proposed to deliver two additional tracks between Tottenham and Hale and Broxbourne, allowing non-stopping, long-distance trains to and from Cambridge and Stansted Airport and shorter-distance suburban services as far as Broxbourne to be separated, delivering the longstanding twin aims of increased services and journey time improvements.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/Eastern/West%20Anglia%20Main%20Line%20Study%202021.pdf

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Interesting. Reading the 2015 consultation PDF it seems that they are being very coy about the track changes. They can't just get rid of the train to Cambridge though, and if they want 10 trains an hour on CR2 and a Cambridge train at the current schedule (let alone the promised improvements) then they'll need 4 tracks.
Seems to be a proposal being looked into by National Rail and the West Coast Main Line, with CR2 keeping it outside of their remit and only looking at track changes north of Broxbourne and south of Tottenham.

Creating more capacity
'To create the extra capacity needed to run more services along the West Anglia Main Line, Crossrail 2 would require the addition of new tracks along the route from south of Tottenham Hale station to north of Broxbourne station. This would also allow for a further service of four trains per hour from all stations on the line to Stratford, in addition to Crossrail 2. The new tracks could also enable an increase in the number of faster longer-distance services between Liverpool Street, Bishop's Stortford and Cambridge. We are still at a very early stage in the development of our proposals for the new tracks. We will carry out further consultation in the local areas about these proposals as they develop'

https://crossrail2.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Angel-Road.pdf

Crossrail 2
Crossrail 2 is proposed to deliver two additional tracks between Tottenham and Hale and Broxbourne, allowing non-stopping, long-distance trains to and from Cambridge and Stansted Airport and shorter-distance suburban services as far as Broxbourne to be separated, delivering the longstanding twin aims of increased services and journey time improvements.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/Eastern/West%20Anglia%20Main%20Line%20Study%202021.pdf

Looks like Network documentation differs from Crossrail 2 documentation as C2 make no mention of new track apart from at Broxbourne.

 

[tottenmal]

Looks like Network documentation differs from Crossrail 2 documentation as C2 make no mention of new track apart from at Broxbourne.

Yeah, and reading the Network Rail doc further that seems to be under the assumption that 4 tracks will happen because of Crossrail, as there is no business case or capacity south of Tottenham Hale for the trains without Crossrail.
So neither party wants to build the extra tracks required between TH and Broxbourne themselves.

Enfield Council did propose a loop at Ponders end or Brimsdown to allow the fast trains to overtake the stoppers and get 4 tph to Meridian Way, but even that has issues getting past Network Rail due to impacts on other services.

Basically getting any kind of frequency improvement to Northumberland Park station is going to be a right slog.

 

[thebenjamin]

Big night for the stadium this weekend with the Lady Gaga gig. Let's hope there's no more sound issues otherwise I could see the concert bookings tailing off somewhat.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Big night for the stadium this weekend with the Lady Gaga gig. Let's hope there's no more sound issues otherwise I could see the concert bookings tailing off somewhat.

Been quite a few comments elsewhere that the whole problem was down to Guns n Roses , their sound engineer , their equipment and Axl not wanting to do the show on the Friday.
Not an expert but would any concert actually use the stadium sound system , where you have a stage set on the pitch and fans directly in front of the stage they would want the sound coming from the direction of the stage and not from speakers around the stadium.
Is it even technically possible to link speakers on the stage to the stadium sound system without any echo etc. ?

 

[tottenmal]

Yeah I was very surprised they used the stadium PA for the upper tier and rear of the GA section. You would usually have additional PA towers around the sound desk to handle that as part of the main PA system. Unless this is more common than I realised.

All big stadiums (especially those with Acoustics built for noise it seems) have these issues at first. The first Muse gig at new Wembley was not great from memory either, and it took them a while to work out how to mix for it. Our ground will be no different, and probably wasn't help by G&R being the first gig there and their crew doing less than the bare minimum.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Yeah, and reading the Network Rail doc further that seems to be under the assumption that 4 tracks will happen because of Crossrail, as there is no business case or capacity south of Tottenham Hale for the trains without Crossrail.
So neither party wants to build the extra tracks required between TH and Broxbourne themselves.

Enfield Council did propose a loop at Ponders end or Brimsdown to allow the fast trains to overtake the stoppers and get 4 tph to Meridian Way, but even that has issues getting past Network Rail due to impacts on other services.

Basically getting any kind of frequency improvement to Northumberland Park station is going to be a right slog.

It's hidden away in the C2 literature ,there are proposals for new track , where they are going to find room for them is a mystery as along some parts of the existing line there not much space.

If C2 does ever get built the getting away from the stadium via Northumberland Pk. will be a great bonus, current C1 trains can carry 1,500 people so 10 trains will be able to shift around 15,000 away after a match.

"Creating more capacity To create the extra capacity needed to run more services along the West Anglia Main Line, Crossrail 2 would require the addition of new tracks along the route from south of Tottenham Hale station to north of Broxbourne station. This would also allow for a further service of four trains per hour from all stations on the line to Stratford, in addition to Crossrail 2. The new tracks could also enable an increase in the number of faster longer-distance services between Liverpool Street, Bishop's Stortford and Cambridge. We are still at a very early stage in the development of our proposals for the new tracks. We will carry out further consultation in the local areas about these proposals as they develop"

 

[Saoirse]

It's hidden away in the C2 literature ,there are proposals for new track , where they are going to find room for them is a mystery as along some parts of the existing line there not much space.

If C2 does ever get built the getting away from the stadium via Northumberland Pk. will be a great bonus, current C1 trains can carry 1,500 people so 10 trains will be able to shift around 15,000 away after a match.

"Creating more capacity To create the extra capacity needed to run more services along the West Anglia Main Line, Crossrail 2 would require the addition of new tracks along the route from south of Tottenham Hale station to north of Broxbourne station. This would also allow for a further service of four trains per hour from all stations on the line to Stratford, in addition to Crossrail 2. The new tracks could also enable an increase in the number of faster longer-distance services between Liverpool Street, Bishop's Stortford and Cambridge. We are still at a very early stage in the development of our proposals for the new tracks. We will carry out further consultation in the local areas about these proposals as they develop"

Probably more than 15k, since some would be getting shifted to the north as well!

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Probably more than 15k, since some would be getting shifted to the north as well!

Yes that's right , I expect the capacity quoted at the moment is the comfort capacity for Crossrail trains , if fans crammed in like they do at the moment on the trains to WHL , might even get 2,000 in per train.

 

[worcestersauce]

On this crossrail2 thing about additional track, there is space for additional track. There has always been twice the width actually used by the existing two tracks. There are now already three tracks and three platforms at Northumberland park and beyond another track can be laid.
Not that any decision will be made on CR2 any time soon as government is in paralysis and no decisions are being taken.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

Doubt stadium will see any benefit from Crossrail 2 for years to come , even doubt if ENIC will still be here if and when Crossrail 2 appears.
Apart from the Stratford to Meridian Water service which was provided with the extra line recently the question is why have Network Rail not upgraded the line from Liverpool St to Broxbourne/Stansted etc.
The Stansted Express has been running for years but still has to operate between the stopping services , it has no dedicated line of its own.

 

[Saoirse]

Doubt stadium will see any benefit from Crossrail 2 for years to come , even doubt if ENIC will still be here if and when Crossrail 2 appears.
Apart from the Stratford to Meridian Water service which was provided with the extra line recently the question is why have Network Rail not upgraded the line from Liverpool St to Broxbourne/Stansted etc.
The Stansted Express has been running for years but still has to operate between the stopping services , it has no dedicated line of its own.

I think that lack of an upgrade is precisely because of the Crossrail 2 plans, which would likely take all the stopping services to Broxbourne away from that line and leave it open for more direct Standsted and Cambridge services (albeit via Tottenham Hale, which would become an interchange for those still wanting to go from one of the Broxbourne stations into Liverpool Street, and possible via Northumberland Park on matchdays). Wouldn't be very efficient to build a third or fourth line now, and then have to close them and pay out again to link them into Crossrail 2 if that does start construction in the next few years.

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

I think that lack of an upgrade is precisely because of the Crossrail 2 plans, which would likely take all the stopping services to Broxbourne away from that line and leave it open for more direct Standsted and Cambridge services. Wouldn't be very efficient to build a third or fourth line now, and then have to close them and pay out again to link them into Crossrail 2 if that does start construction in the next few years.

Stansted Express has been going since 1991 , if Network Rail had built a dedicated line alongside existing tracks can't have been too difficult to integrate C2 which must have been a later idea as Crossrail 1 only got the go ahead early 90's.

Not sure if Crossrail 1 faced the same problems as C2 on existing lines , one example is Enfield Lock the level crossing would have to go and I assume a bridge for Ordnance Rd which means demolition of buildings. Can't have Spurs pubs being demolished would be a disgrace.

Enfield Lock - Crossrail 2

crossrail2.co.uk

 

[Wick3d]

I think that lack of an upgrade is precisely because of the Crossrail 2 plans, which would likely take all the stopping services to Broxbourne away from that line and leave it open for more direct Standsted and Cambridge services (albeit via Tottenham Hale, which would become an interchange for those still wanting to go from one of the Broxbourne stations into Liverpool Street, and possible via Northumberland Park on matchdays). Wouldn't be very efficient to build a third or fourth line now, and then have to close them and pay out again to link them into Crossrail 2 if that does start construction in the next few years.

Pretty much. The Crossrail 2 can has been kicked down the road, the thing is, it is needed so it will eventually happen. London and the surrounding rail networks need more capacity, but we have had successive governments who are just incompetent.

 

[tottenmal]

Doubt stadium will see any benefit from Crossrail 2 for years to come , even doubt if ENIC will still be here if and when Crossrail 2 appears.
Apart from the Stratford to Meridian Water service which was provided with the extra line recently the question is why have Network Rail not upgraded the line from Liverpool St to Broxbourne/Stansted etc.
The Stansted Express has been running for years but still has to operate between the stopping services , it has no dedicated line of its own.

It is due to the lack of capacity at Liverpool Street and Stratford to take any additional services. Liverpool Street has it's own problem of a lack of rails serving the relevant platforms (2) and existing overcrowding on the platforms. While Stratford doesn't have the platforms to terminate any extra services there.

Hence for an increase in capacity, the extra trains have to go somewhere else, and a tunnel into Dalston for CR2 solves that problem.

I believe the Original line was built with 4 tracks back in the day, so other than some encroachment here and there it isn't a massive undertaking between Tottenham and Broxbourne. The same isn't true between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street though, hence it never went anywhere.

As an aside, I do believe NR looked into the feasibility of tunnelling the line from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool street, building bespoke platforms underground. As you can imagine it wasn't deemed particularly feasible.

 

[Saoirse]

Good news - UEFA trialling safe standing in their competitions this season:

 

[tottenmal]

Good news.

Must say, the swing to safe standing is happening much faster than I thought.

 

[Finchyid]

Good news.

Must say, the swing to safe standing is happening much faster than I thought.

They need to make the south all standing

 

[Saoirse]

The policy is actually more radical than the headline suggests. The "trial" is that in England, France and Germany, standing is allowed at all participating clubs in accordance with local laws and regulations i.e. if it's allowed in a domestic game there, it's allowed in Europe - so there'll definitely be standing at WHL in the UCL this season. But that also means in Germany, the more traditional terraces can be used, not just 'safe' standing. So Dortmund and co will be at full capacity (which also means bigger away allocations if we get drawn there).