Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[-Afri-Coy-]

I hate to be the one to say it, but a lot of you who are spewing vitriol in here now are the same people who were convinced that a lot of the players who started last night would be completely new players under Ange.

They aren’t. They’ve consistently let the club down under various managers now. It’s been said a thousand times. You can’t polish a turd. If we want to compete at a higher level and achieve things, we’re going to need to be patient while we work the rot out.

Like I said last night, some players simply can’t be “coached up”. They have a ceiling and it’s been reached for years already.

Now my attention turns to Ange. Again, like I said last night, I’m not disappointed in him. We’ve seen a completely renewed 1st team, and we’re playing some very attractive football so far. Changing out 9 of those players to know the depth of your squad is a bold move, but a move that needed to be made. You could argue the semantics of it and say that it shouldn’t have happened in the carabao cup but rather at a later stage, but we can’t blame Ange for trying. It was a mistake and he’ll learn from it. If anything, his past managerial positions prove this.

We need to trust and stick behind Ange, through the good and the bad decisions. Last night was the first bad one. It doesn’t warrant any level of abuse, but there is always a place for fair criticism. Try to keep that in mind, and put your emotions aside when levelling that criticism.

Just my 2c, I think both sides of the argument have made some very valid points in here. But some of it is just down right petty abuse. It’s unnecessary and it goes to show that some fans just simply can’t control their emotions. A very dangerous trait to have not only as a football fan but in general.

 

[dk-yid]

I don't agree with you, but fair enough, your points are valid for your argument in this post until this last sentence. It just doesn't make sense. Not only there will be revisionism in the future when either of the two scenarios you painted happens, but you are also making it as if this route/decision taken will lead us to five trophies over the next five years, when not even X number of trophies over the next Y years will hold true to what happened last night.

It was thought experiment. A hypothetical. It was meant to frame the thinking that there other ways of looking at this than Ange 'throwing a cup now'. None of it is a given. I know that.

 

[13VanDerBale13]

Christ on a bike, some of you lot need meds. Miserable bunch of gits.

We lost, it wasn't pretty. So fucking what....

So many opinions in here (good thing!) based on loads of out of the blue assumptions, wild deductions and twisting of Anges own words.

Can't belive that some are already using words like disgraceful.

Loser mentality

 

[Rout-Ledge]

He has a few days to decide if Scarlett stays with the squad or goes on loan again, so I think he wanted to see him competitavely.

Sure, but unfortunately at half time we were already losing because we started a second string. So perhaps the time to try and rescue the game rather than experiment with Scarlett. Scarlett may well make it here, but he’s just come off the back of a season in League 1 with four goals to his name. He’s really unlikely to be ready to play an important role for us right now.

 

[Tucker]

I hate to be the one to say it, but a lot of you who are spewing vitriol in here now are the same people who were convinced that a lot of the players who started last night would be completely new players under Ange.

They aren’t. They’ve consistently let the club down under various managers now. It’s been said a thousand times. You can’t polish a turd. If we want to compete at a higher level and achieve things, we’re going to need to be patient while we work the rot out.

Like I said last night, some players simply can’t be “coached up”. They have a ceiling and it’s been reached for years already.

Now my attention turns to Ange. Again, like I said last night, I’m not disappointed in him. We’ve seen a completely renewed 1st team, and we’re playing some very attractive football so far. Changing out 9 of those players to know the depth of your squad is a bold move, but a move that needed to be made. You could argue the semantics of it and say that it shouldn’t have happened in the carabao cup but rather at a later stage, but we can’t blame Ange for trying. It was a mistake and he’ll learn from it. If anything, his past managerial positions prove this.

We need to trust and stick behind Ange, through the good and the bad decisions. Last night was the first bad one. It doesn’t warrant any level of abuse, but there is always a place for fair criticism. Try to keep that in mind, and put your emotions aside when levelling that criticism.

Just my 2c, I think both sides of the argument have made some very valid points in here. But some of it is just down right petty abuse. It’s unnecessary and it goes to show that some fans just simply can’t control their emotions. A very dangerous trait to have not only as a football fan but in general.

It’s too simplistic to just say the players are crap. They’re squad players, it’s fine to throw them into a good side two or three at a time, but nine changes was simply too much. I said last night that the main problem was that we lost all our passing options.

Our good performances this season have largely been built on Bissouma, Maddison and VIcario all offering themselves for the ball left right and centre. This took the pressure off the defenders. We just didn‘t do this last night.

 

[Timberwolf]

It’s too simplistic to just say the players are crap. They’re squad players, it’s fine to throw them into a good side two or three at a time, but nine changes was simply too much. I said last night that the main problem was that we lost all our passing options.

Our good performances this season have largely been built on Bissouma, Maddison and VIcario all offering themselves for the ball left right and centre. This took the pressure off the defenders. We just didn‘t do this last night.

Yeah there was so much passing back and forth between the CBs and the keeper with no passing options - it was Conte-esque at times. And when we did get the ball through to Royal, Skipp, or PEH in the midfield they were taking poor touches and misplacing passes.

Without Romero, Bissouma, Vicario, Sarr, Maddison and Porro we didn't seem to have the technical ability or the confidence to properly build from the back and, in turn, get going at all. Throw a few of those players in there and I think we'd have looked a couple of notches better, but we basically took out all of the technicians at once and Royal, Sanchez, Davies, PEH and Skipp as a group just couldn't handle it.

 

[dk-yid]

Loser mentality

Nope. Not by any stretch. Quite the contrary in fact.

Loser mentality is what's going on I here with the constant whining and melting down over what is already done and dusted.

 

[Styopa]

Ange comes across open and honest in interviews so I hope someone asks him if he has been given a list of priorities for competitions by the club. Putting out the second team for domestic cups, even against PL opposition, has been a thing all through ENICs time. I'd like to know if it really is ALL about the league and getting into Europe. If it is I will at least be able to treat these matches more like pre-season friendlies than a path to winning a trophy.

I’m sure Pochettino or Redknapp said it was all about the league for ENIC or words to that effect.

In any case, we rarely if ever play a second team in a league match whereas it is a regular occurrence in cup competitions. I think that tells it’s own story. It’s far more likely to be a club policy than individual managers trying to wing it each time with weakened teams.

I also think it’s become so ingrained within the club that it’s become a kind of culture- to the extent that it can effect us even when we select a stronger side to play.

I hate to be the one to say it, but a lot of you who are spewing vitriol in here now are the same people who were convinced that a lot of the players who started last night would be completely new players under Ange.

They aren’t. They’ve consistently let the club down under various managers now. It’s been said a thousand times. You can’t polish a turd. If we want to compete at a higher level and achieve things, we’re going to need to be patient while we work the rot out.

The problem with this view is most of these players who started yesterday been signed relatively recently. For example the players in bold have all been at the club for two seasons or fewer. Hardly letting various managers down, most of them have played for a couple managers max. Foster, Perisic, and Richarlison were all signed last summer whilst VDV and Solomon were signed this summer:


Forster, Royal, Sanchez, Van de Ven, Davies, Hojbjerg, Skipp, Lo Celso, Solomon, Richarlison, Perisic.

 

[Tucker]

Yeah there was so much passing back and forth between the CBs and the keeper with no passing options - it was Conte-esque at times. And when we did get the ball through to Royal, Skipp, or PEH in the midfield they were taking poor touches and misplacing passes.

Without Romero, Bissouma, Vicario, Maddison and Porro we didn't seem to have the technical ability or the confidence to properly build from the back and, in turn, get going at all. Throw a couple of those players in there and I think we'd have looked a couple of notches better, but we basically took out all of the technicians at once and Royal, Sanchez, Davies, PEH and Skipp as a group just can't handle it.

Yeah, players like Bissouma and Maddison elevate the others around them. Not only are they able to take the ball cleanly, but they can turn and progress the ball into space and create space for others to move into. Højbjerg and Skipp just don’t have that in their locker. I’m not sure Sarr does either yet. So Bissouma and Maddison are vital to how we want to play.

Skipp, Sarr, and Højbjerg all have the work rate to take up that third midfield place, but without at least one of the others they are always going to look pedestrian and static.

 

[Tucker]

Nope. Not by any stretch. Quite the contrary in fact.

Loser mentality is what's going on I here with the constant whining and melting down over what is already done and dusted.

Are people not allowed to discuss what went wrong? Or are we only allowed to discuss what goes right when we win?

 

[dk-yid]

Are people not allowed to discuss what went wrong? Or are we only allowed to discuss what goes right when we win?

No, discuss. By all means. I also mentioned earlier in the thread that many opinions is a good thing. It's the OTT reactions that I went after.

And as to your question. I'd rather people discussed what went wrong after a win, and went right after a loss. But that's me and perhaps a discussion for another time.

 

[hughy]

Even after sleeping on it I'm extremely disappointed about last night's performance and result.

I stand by my comment that Ange should be taking the lions share of responsibility for it. Absolutely unnecessary to make so many changes in a competition we could realistically progress very far in, when we don't have European football to worry about.

I think we're going to have a great time under Ange, and I can't wait to see what the future holds. Hopefully he's learnt something from last night and we can use it as a positive going forward.

 

[Tucker]

No, discuss. By all means. I also mentioned earlier in the thread that many opinions is a good thing. It's the OTT reactions that I went after.

And as to your question. I'd rather people discussed what went wrong after a win, and went right after a loss. But that's me and perhaps a discussion for another time.

I haven’t seen any OTT reactions, but ok.

 

[dimiSpur]

In hindsight, I'd have played a team which would have had a higher chance of qualifying for the next round. As everyone else feels, given the Club's lack of European football this season but also how long we've gone without winning a trophy (the last one was this cup, in 2008, whereas the last time we won anything that wasn't this cup, was 1991!), we aren't really in a position to not take it seriously.

However, I agree with Ange saying "how else am I going to find out about my players?". With that, I mean that we are in need of further, big changes within the squad. It's a squad with around 12-13 players that are really worth keeping. That's a very small number. So if, by playing the second XI, he gets a reaction from Levy and fires a rocket up his arse to do something in these final hours of the window, then I'll take sacrificing the Carabao Cup for another season.

I say that, despite being annoyed that we are out of the cup and despite thinking it was a mistake to make 9 changes. But if my middle paragraph was the logic behind it, then I disagree but I can accept it.

 

[jimbo]

I guess I don't see the point of having a squad of 25 players (never mind the 30+ we have) if you can't make a lot of changes to the starting XI for games like this, otherwise we only need a squad of 19 to cover injuries - perhaps it would be better right now if we did have a much smaller squad, but we don't.

Pre-season games, behind-closed-doors friendlies, youth games etc don't give the manager a true sense of what these players are like - it has to be in competitive games. The players picked last night had looked good in pre-season. I imagine Ange felt they deserved a chance, they let him and us down. We have a huge amount of players that either aren't good enough or won't work in this system.

Would we really be happier if we made these changes in the later stages? I think that's unlikely personally, just as history shows City are very likely to reach the final and win it, so it's not the 'easy trophy' it seems to be percieved as. If anything, the easiest trophy for us to win would be one of the lesser European ones.

It doesn't really matter if us fans would prefer a domestic cup win over a higher league finish because the club absolutely does not - and it's the club that employ the manager and set his priorities.

In the summer, most were convinced that all we wanted as a fan base was front-foot, attacking football and to be entertained. Are we now saying that what was really meant was 'to be entertained and to win' - which was pointed out at the time to mass denial. It's going to take time, we were prepared to be patient when it seemed to be going well - we can't lose our patience now if we're ever going to be the club we want to be.

If there should be any criticism at this very early point it should be aimed at those who have assembled a disjointed squad of players, and currently don't seem to be doing enough to a) correct the mistakes that have been made in shifting players out, and b) bring in players that fit within a vision/strategy/philosophy that we've only recently rediscovered.

Even then, it's still early. Come on guys, we've had far worse, far more disappointing exits against poorer opposition with more established managers more than 3 games into their tenure.

P.S. Mate.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

It’s too simplistic to just say the players are crap. They’re squad players, it’s fine to throw them into a good side two or three at a time, but nine changes was simply too much. I said last night that the main problem was that we lost all our passing options.

Our good performances this season have largely been built on Bissouma, Maddison and VIcario all offering themselves for the ball left right and centre. This took the pressure off the defenders. We just didn‘t do this last night.

Fair enough, very valid point here too which is also fair criticism of Ange’s decision to make so many changes.

The thing is, the spine of our team is the most important. Something as simple as starting Vicario instead of Fraser could’ve been the difference in that penalty shootout. It’s all hypothetical ofcourse, but chances are he does better in that scenario than worse.

I look at it like the Han scene in Tokyo Drift. He was willing to sacrifice his car that he put years into and genuinely loved, in order to see the character of another man. We sacrificed a cup, so that Ange could see for himself who he can trust and what mistakes he can’t afford to make in the cup or league games ahead. It’s a disappointing result, but it’s a very necessary step he needed to take. I’m 100% certain he won’t make the same mistake again.

 

[jimbo]

I’m sure Pochettino or Redknapp said it was all about the league for ENIC or words to that effect.

In any case, we rarely if ever play a second team in a league match whereas it is a regular occurrence in cup competitions. I think that tells it’s own story. It’s far more likely to be a club policy than individual managers trying to wing it each time with weakened teams.

I also think it’s become so ingrained within the club that it’s become a kind of culture- to the extent that it can effect us even when we select a stronger side to play.


The problem with this view is most of these players who started yesterday been signed relatively recently. For example the players in bold have all been at the club for two seasons or fewer. Hardly letting various managers down, most of them have played for a couple managers max. Foster, Perisic, and Richarlison were all signed last summer whilst VDV and Solomon were signed this summer:


Forster, Royal, Sanchez, Van de Ven, Davies, Hojbjerg, Skipp, Lo Celso, Solomon, Richarlison, Perisic.

Caveat to that is that it's only 2 players signed for this manager with a very different style of play to those we've had over the last four years. I doubt we would have signed Forster, Royal and Perisic for Ange's system - possibly not Richarlison either. He's having to make do with what we've got.

 

[dace]

Feel for the fans that went last night, they deserved a little more, imo.

 

[Tucker]

I look at it like the Han scene in Tokyo Drift. He was willing to sacrifice his car that he put years into and genuinely loved, in order to see the character of another man. We sacrificed a cup, so that Ange could see for himself who he can trust and what mistakes he can’t afford to make in the cup or league games ahead. It’s a disappointing result, but it’s a very necessary step he needed to take. I’m 100% certain he won’t make the same mistake again.

I can see why people would be thinking this was a positive. But I’m not sure what he would have been able to learn about a lot of the players, when the thing that makes the system actually works has been taken out. If for example Bissouma had been playing. We might well have seen how well Lo Celso could slot in when Maddison is unavailable. But next to Højbjerg (who himself was unsuited to the position he was playing) Lo Celso looked lost. Solomon, and Perisic also failed to have much of an impact, mainly because we didn’t have a functioning spine. Emerson, Davies, and Sanchez have all performed much better than we saw last night when they had that Bissouma/Maddison spine working alongside them.

Without a functioning spine, many of the players weren’t given a platform upon which to show what they can do.

 

[Thenewcat]

Ange Postecoglou makes first misstep as Spurs manager - but it's a big one

Ange Postecoglou made his first mistake as Spurs manager; one of only two realistic routes to a trophy is closed in August after limp Carabao effort.

www.football365.com

Tough to argue with any of this…